anybody just ... tired of this?

Aug 21, 2022 7:07 PM

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May 2019

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all_marbles_lost said:
good yuri is few and far between but is there any at all that doesn't romanticize codependency like this? i get that this movie is cute and pretty or whatever but as a lesbian myself i'm a little perplexed that this is hailed as the peak of all things yuri when anyone who's ever been even an inch near a relationship like this knows that it spells disaster.

idk, maybe the manga delves into these issues further but if i had a quarter for every yuri plot that's got a protag with crippling self-consciousness whose only motivation for self-improvement is her love interest, i could probably have enough for a whole vacation to japan. i just can't for the life of me see this as romantic. it's just sad. i've been a Tomoka Kase one too many times to be invested or root for this stuff anymore.

i'm gonna boldly assume that the yuri stories that are written by women and display these kinds of relationships are projections of a hope for meeting somebody that will actually be able to fix all of their problems for them, and of the stuff that's written by men, it's just a similarly-clad puppet show ... and yes, i know that there are other genres and distinctions beyond "yuri" with all their subtle differences in how mature they're allowed to be, but at it's core it's always the same shit, as if homosexual women aren't allowed to have any other kind of dynamic. i get that we fall in love and show that love partly by working to improve ourselves for the sake of that person, but this is the clear psychological extreme that takes a nose-dive straight into troubling territory.

good god. anybody have any thoughts? anybody think i've misread the movie and that it happens to be an exception or you have juicy deets from the manga or something? anybody think i'm insane and this is just how love "works"? should i stop screaming into the void about a 50 min anime movie i found on someone else's list? very interested to hear someone else's take.

I've read most of the manga, and this is a persistent problem there, too. A significant portion of the plot is either Tomoka or Yui getting insecure and jealous about a social scenario the other is in and questioning the other's feelings for them until it's revealed to be a misunderstanding. My biggest criticism isn't really with this premise itself, but rather the fact that you can break down every major arc that isn't just "cute lesbians doing cute things" into this formula. They don't learn and they don't grow past this mindset even after they go to college, so it feels really weird looking at the story portray them as smitten with one another.

If you're looking for a better example, Bloom Into You handles this subject better. The two love interests aren't mutually codependent (in fact their feelings aren't even mutual until late in the story) and Touko's dependence on Yuu is shown to be bad for both of them. The metanarrative that serves as Touko's realization of this (and incidentally Yuu's acceptance of her feelings for her) is about Touko not defining herself by her relationships with others and accepting that she is allowed to love herself and be a real person. Not to mention Sayaka's journey of growing past her need to be close to Touko and her fear of losing that connection she values so much ends with her in a healthier relationship by the end. Bloom Into You does a lot of queer rep more intimately and interestingly than a lot of standard yuri manga.

Aug 21, 2022 7:49 PM

#3

removed-user

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AgentDusk said:

all_marbles_lost said:

I actually got into Bloom Into You completely on accident (I can’t for the life of me remember how I found it — I think I stumbled onto episodes on YouTube of all places), and it was actually the first genuinely yuri thing I’d ever watched or read, and I’ve been looking for something of a similar caliber ever since.
Most things as of late are disappointing — stuff like Virgin Road and I Choose the Villainess were fun little asides that don’t fall into those usual tropes as much because they’re focused on fantasy and then there’s something like Citrus or that sister-in-law one where they don’t really have time for any of that on account of moral hijinks, but jeez, a lot of the rest of it just feels like I’m stuck in a time loop every single time I open Dynasty.

Aug 21, 2022 9:39 PM

#4

thunderkitten13

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Apr 2022

1540

I don’t think you really get that their relationship is not perfect, and even if it was, it would be totally boring. The Kase-san manga tries to show a realistic depiction of imperfect people in a lesbian relationship. Tomoka is a really popular, attractive, and outgoing girl that at times forgets Yui is not very extrovertive, is somewhat of an oddball and gets insecure relatively easily. On the other hand, Yui is a really sweet and passionate girl that forgets to trust in Tomoka’s affection for her, and gets easily sad or upset and creates distance to protect her heart from hurt. Believe it or not, these types of relationships and personalities exist. It’s meant to show what not to do in a relationship. Honestly, that’s what almost every story to have ever existed is meant to do: teach values and morals, or at the very least depict conflict that mirrors something that exists in reality. And of course, it’s meant to entertain above all else. I don’t think your criticism is unfair, but if Yui and Tomoka didn’t have glaring issues then the manga would have zero conflict and it would just be a slice of life, and probably have way less popularity. This is just my two cents, though.

thunderkitten13Aug 21, 2022 9:43 PM

Aug 22, 2022 5:51 AM

#5

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thunderkitten667 said:
I don’t think you really get that their relationship is not perfect, and even if it was, it would be totally boring. The Kase-san manga tries to show a realistic depiction of imperfect people in a lesbian relationship. Tomoka is a really popular, attractive, and outgoing girl that at times forgets Yui is not very extrovertive, is somewhat of an oddball and gets insecure relatively easily. On the other hand, Yui is a really sweet and passionate girl that forgets to trust in Tomoka’s affection for her, and gets easily sad or upset and creates distance to protect her heart from hurt. Believe it or not, these types of relationships and personalities exist. It’s meant to show what not to do in a relationship. Honestly, that’s what almost every story to have ever existed is meant to do: teach values and morals, or at the very least depict conflict that mirrors something that exists in reality. And of course, it’s meant to entertain above all else. I don’t think your criticism is unfair, but if Yui and Tomoka didn’t have glaring issues then the manga would have zero conflict and it would just be a slice of life, and probably have way less popularity. This is just my two cents, though.

I’m not saying that a story about a relationship shouldn’t have conflict and I recognize completely that these are very faithful depictions of real people. As I’ve kind of indirectly stated, I’ve been around these people and I’ve been these people. The issue I have is that the codependency is treated like something romantic and that the end, seems to be a happy and hopeful ending, that it’s gonna be perfectly okay that if this deeply self-conscious indecisive girl throws everything away for one singular person and isolates herself from everything she’s known, that it’s somehow a happy ending. The issue I have is that the central, glaring conflict of their relationship does not get resolved, there is no indication that Yui will spend some kind of effort on herself in order to get better. Obviously a story about a relationship without conflict is boring as hell, but if that conflict is never resolved or the actual glaring issue between the two of them is treated like it’s not the Actual conflict (because I feel like the movie just hammered home the “will they, won’t they” without doing anything to develop Yui’s psyche).

I’m aware that real relationships like this exist. I’m also aware that they quickly become pitiful to watch unless one or both people makes an extensive, introspective effort on themselves, which Yui doesn’t seem to be ready to do.

Aug 22, 2022 11:24 AM

#6

mamutenho

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Dec 2018

4

oh fck I wrote a really long reply and accidentally deleted it. i hate it here.

to summarize what i intended to say: i totally understand what you're saying and i agree. still, i liked this movie. i can ignore some problems if it's for the sake of a cute and short media. if i read the manga then i'd probably not enjoy it that much if these problems aren't depicted as real problems later on, but since it's a cute and short movie, i could enjoy it a lot actually. i dislike the very same thing you're talking about, i just happen to "accept" it more, i guess. or something along those lines. maybe that's the same for other sapphics that still enjoy gl media that have the same issues as this movie. and maybe i just haven't been in a relationship like this so i can't really feel how bad it truly is, even if i logically know that it's bad.

anyways, i also recommended some gl manga/anime that i think don't have this codependent relationship issue but since i accidentally deleted it i'm too lazy to write everything again lol let me just say the names then: her tale of shim cheong (it's a historical drama, maybe has a bit of some kind of dependency tbh but it's really well written and it's kinda reasonable if you look at their surroundings because, again: it's a historical drama after all), tamen de gushi (cute and fluffy, it's famous, i wouldn't be surprised if you already know it, at least i don't remember their relationship ever being codependent), i love you so much i hate you (more mature, it resolves around a woman and her boss, really short manga with just 9 chapters, the ending is a bit rushed, still good tho) and aoi hana (a bit different from these others, i like it but it's not exactly what i wanted when i watched it. it talks about some real problems tho, i like it). there's also bloom into you (my favorite, honestly), the executioner one and the villainess one but i see you alredy know them lol and there's also 5 seconds before a witch falls in love but it has only 2 chapters, an unrelated one shot (that i dislike) in the middle of the manga and a bonus chapter, still kinda cool tho, but it's also a fantasy setting as you said

anyways, that's basically it. i haven't read/watched that many gl media tbh. as a lesbian myself i really enjoy this genre and have lots of gl on my "plan to" list (my plan to read list is basically around 76 different gl i want to read and like 7 or so manga that aren't gl related lol maybe you could find some good ones there) but i always end up postponing them for some reason. if any of the ones i mentioned you already know and disagree with me about them not having this codependency relationship problem, i'm all ears! english is not my first language so if i came off as rude at any point i'm sorry, wasn't my intention. i'm always open to a good talk ^^ sorry for the still long reply

Aug 22, 2022 11:43 AM

#7

thunderkitten13

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Apr 2022

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Well, if you are basing your analysis solely on the movie, then your analysis is flawed. They are two high school girls about to enter university, so they are still practically brimming with hormones and angst. I don’t think they are acting dysfunctional or in any way toxic. In the sequel series, it shows them both making sacrifices for each other, and I mean serious sacrifices. The thing about this manga’s theme is it is about sacrifice for the one you love, and taking risks for your happiness. In Japan, you are taught to make sacrifices for everything but yourself. A lot of old romantic drama anime/stories revolve around actually moving on from past love and relationships, because the pain of harboring feelings for the past can be so damaging. But Kase-san is about the opposite: putting your love before anything else. Yui decides that she wants to be with Tomoka seriously, and chooses a college where she will be able to stay with her. The sequel series follows their various troubles as they try to maintain their relationship, but the strength of their relationship only grows with each passing year, which makes the series really special. It’s one of the best depictions of realistic lesbian relationships I have seen in anime, compared to the overly sexualized or idealized daydreams some of them are. But if you genuinely dislike it, then you have every right to do so. I just don’t think the anime is as troublesome as you think it is.

thunderkitten13Aug 22, 2022 3:19 PM

Aug 22, 2022 3:17 PM

#8

removed-user

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thunderkitten667 said:

I don’t think the movie itself is any more problematic than the ever-present yuri trope that it and many other yuri media embody. If it weren’t for what’s painted as a happy ending, I’d have zero issues with this movie. I thought it was beautiful and the characters were incredibly tangible.

A lot of cultures value self-sacrifice for the sake of others, I think I’d even argue that most do. Yet, there are manga that I’ve read that address how crippling those feelings of self-doubt can be and how you cannot move forward in a relationship until you address them and work on yourself. Sometimes, this is addressed in a direct confrontation, in an on-the-nose, “I acknowledge that I have to get better.”, and even if we don’t see it happen within the span of the story, sometimes just the promise to try or a context-less time skip is more than enough to signify that there’s been some progress made in this direction. Citrus is better at dealing with this kind of character communication.

While I did openly ask for if the manga deals with the issue at all, to say that my analysis is flawed without the context of the manga is a little ridiculous. Any adaptation can and should hold water as its own complete product because at the end of the day, it is expected to attract a wider audience than just the initial manga readers in order to justify the exorbitant expense of making anime. I have a bone to pick with the wider genre tropes of yuri/GL and what gets treated as high-tier representation.

You may not think that it’s toxic, but I hate to burst your bubble, presented as it is in this movie, blind devotion with a lack of any concern for the self is a recipe for disaster. What bothers me about the movie and a lot of yuri/GL media at large, is that this sacrifice is considered to be the very embodiment of a happy ending, without ever addressing that the character making the sacrifice is in no way emotionally mature enough to make it. I am glad to hear that the manga doesn’t just leave it at that and the couple continues to have their back-and-forth, but that doesn’t change the way that this movie has been presented and how so many other GL/yuri stories decided to draw the curtains.

Aug 22, 2022 3:43 PM

#9

thunderkitten13

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Apr 2022

1540

all_marbles_lost said:

thunderkitten667 said:

I don’t think the movie itself is any more problematic than the ever-present yuri trope that it and many other yuri media embody. If it weren’t for what’s painted as a happy ending, I’d have zero issues with this movie. I thought it was beautiful and the characters were incredibly tangible.

A lot of cultures value self-sacrifice for the sake of others, I think I’d even argue that most do. Yet, there are manga that I’ve read that address how crippling those feelings of self-doubt can be and how you cannot move forward in a relationship until you address them and work on yourself. Sometimes, this is addressed in a direct confrontation, in an on-the-nose, “I acknowledge that I have to get better.”, and even if we don’t see it happen within the span of the story, sometimes just the promise to try or a context-less time skip is more than enough to signify that there’s been some progress made in this direction. Citrus is better at dealing with this kind of character communication.

While I did openly ask for if the manga deals with the issue at all, to say that my analysis is flawed without the context of the manga is a little ridiculous. Any adaptation can and should hold water as its own complete product because at the end of the day, it is expected to attract a wider audience than just the initial manga readers in order to justify the exorbitant expense of making anime. I have a bone to pick with the wider genre tropes of yuri/GL and what gets treated as high-tier representation.

You may not think that it’s toxic, but I hate to burst your bubble, presented as it is in this movie, blind devotion with a lack of any concern for the self is a recipe for disaster. What bothers me about the movie and a lot of yuri/GL media at large, is that this sacrifice is considered to be the very embodiment of a happy ending, without ever addressing that the character making the sacrifice is in no way emotionally mature enough to make it. I am glad to hear that the manga doesn’t just leave it at that and the couple continues to have their back-and-forth, but that doesn’t change the way that this movie has been presented and how so many other GL/yuri stories decided to draw the curtains.

I don’t think a character has look at the camera and to say out “I need to work on myself, I can’t enjoy dependent on my love!” for the audience to understand that the characters are mindful of how they must improve. You seem to be making blanket statements but haven’t really mentioned any specifics. I mean, the anime is a romance above all else. Yui absolutely adores Tomoka, and it is the same for Tomoka’s feelings as well. They are willing to make sacrifices and attempt to understand each other to improve their relationship. I keep saying this, but I’ll say it again: the culture in Japan is all about being selfless. This anime is all about being selfish. Yui loves Tomoka, and doesn’t want to give her up. That’s not codependency. She wants to work hard for their love as well as pursue her passion. And...she does just that. The same is for Tomoka. Neither just hang out 24/7 with each other. They are attending university, trying to get an education. But if you want to just look at the anime...they are practically babies. They are childhood sweethearts experiencing love for the first time. I could understand if they were two adults and Yui just cried rivers at any moment due to insecurity, but they practically are going through their first intimate relationship with another human, and it’s a same sex one at that. It isn’t going to look pretty. People will make mistakes. They are human. And honestly, even within the context of just the anime, they both have made sacrifices to have moments for themselves, for each other, to build on their love. The ending is magical, because Yui runs to Tomoka, despite the whole anime she ran away from any problems that came up with them, or tried to ignore them. The love they share is powerful and gives them strength to work hard for each other. But again, I see where you are coming from.

Sep 25, 2022 5:11 AM

#10

whereswisteria

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Jul 2021

10

keep screaming about this !! i don’t think you are crazy at all! as a lesbian myself i think the exact same. i have a friend who is the exact replica of kase-san - she started a relationship with a girl clearly looking to get fixed by her in a way and it really really REALLY shows. it concerns me because i think that trope is also very toxic, but in the end this dynamic is also the reality of most relationships anyway, so i actually kinda appreciate these representations the most. because if you really think about it if yuri anime were represented without 0 toxicity some would complain that it isn’t a real representation because love can’t always be perfect.

idk if i’m just rambling nonsense, but i do agree that we need a diverse range of yuri anime rep. most written comics and mangas do a far better job at this than the majority of published yuri anime unfortunately ://

Sep 25, 2022 5:28 AM

#11

removed-user

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wheresele said:
keep screaming about this !! i don’t think you are crazy at all! as a lesbian myself i think the exact same. i have a friend who is the exact replica of kase-san - she started a relationship with a girl clearly looking to get fixed by her in a way and it really really REALLY shows. it concerns me because i think that trope is also very toxic, but in the end this dynamic is also the reality of most relationships anyway, so i actually kinda appreciate these representations the most. because if you really think about it if yuri anime were represented without 0 toxicity some would complain that it isn’t a real representation because love can’t always be perfect.

idk if i’m just rambling nonsense, but i do agree that we need a diverse range of yuri anime rep. most written comics and mangas do a far better job at this than the majority of published yuri anime unfortunately ://

i definitely agree that making everything "perfect" would make for a boring piece of media and obviously wouldn't be realistic -- i think (in fact, i know) that there is a ton of dynamics that could be explored, and the presentation of this particular one, in almost every single iteration irks me so bad. it is true that it does happen to be the reality of most relationships and that's .. maybe that's less so a problem of the media, but it just makes me kind of sad. i'm not looking for "perfect" rep, i'm just looking for anythig but that at this point. there's definitely more to choose from when it comes to yuri manga/manwa/etc. but this "trope" is still incredibly abundant. i do get where you're coming from and i'm glad that at least my personal experience hasn't been lost in the void))))

Dec 18, 2022 1:05 PM

#12

Bunille

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Oct 2017

3966

Thanks for speaking about me.

Apr 5, 2023 4:31 AM

#13

SleepySera

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Aug 2020

949

I know I'm late to the party, but: I don't think this is a problem specific to yuri anime/manga in particular, or even Japanese media in general. Unless some big external conflict is present (stuff like having to survive a fantasy world or battling a severe illness), any piece of media that focuses on an established relationship instead of the getting-together-process, throws in the constant cycle of self-doubt, doubting the other and endless misunderstandings to keep the tension high for the viewer/reader.

That may seem exhausting if it never leads to characters learning from it (which they can't because otherwise there would be no "plot" left), but, and I'm going out on a limb here, aren't you projecting a little bit too much? :x
You keep bringing up how the characters HAVE to improve themselves (because it didn't work out for you or the person you know), but...why? Different strokes for different folks. Clearly this dynamic works for them and they DON'T grow tired of falling back in the same old conflicts again and again. Even in reality, people find happiness in different ways, and not every relationship has to follow the textbook definition of "healthy" to work for the people involved.

Besides, every relationship is co-dependent to some degree, that's a basic aspect of being in love with someone 🤷‍♀️ Every multi-national couple usually started with one of them being willing to leave their country for the other, and when couples move cities because one of them found a better job elsewhere, it usually means the other has to give up theirs and find a new job in the new city too, yet you wouldn't call that co-dependent just because they don't want to live apart, right?

So in a way, the end of this movie could even be considered a form of self-improvement for Yui, because she finds the courage to take the leap into a new, unfamiliar environment to be with her lover, instead of just staying in her comfortable shell of the home and people and places she's always known. Her insecurity became a catalyst for moving forward and challenging herself, isn't that lovely? :)

🎵 We've found a kind of paradise in a flower's bloom 🎵

Poll: » Asagao to Kase-san. Episode 1 Discussion ( 1 2 ) Reverberate - Aug 8, 2018	63	by candoh »» Nov 14, 7:17 PM
» Did anyone else cry? Frooggy - Oct 7, 2021	11	by Sakugashoujo »» Sep 21, 2022 8:01 AM
» More animes like this? hangezoe_ - Sep 11, 2021	3	by removed-user »» Sep 11, 2021 10:20 PM
» Any way to watch this legally? smoledman - Nov 22, 2018	4	by rockybalboa091 »» Aug 14, 2021 11:48 AM
» length NG_Chloe - Apr 26, 2018	5	by Mimerio »» May 27, 2018 5:52 PM

anybody just ... tired of this?

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