| I don't typically watch seasonal anime and I'm not usually paying attention to the pointless bickering of the anime community, but I'll take this opportunity to vent and remind everyone of what reviews actually are and how they work. I thought the concept of a review was fairly straight forward, but apparently it's not. 1. A general note on reviews. I'm seeing a lot of hate and absolutely unexplainable ignorance when it comes to Citrus. This comes from two sources: a) people who haven't seen Citrus, and b) people who don't understand how reviews are meant to work. a) For people who haven't watched Citrus but for some unfathomable reason feel like they need to voice their opinions on it: don't. You have nothing of value to add to the conversation. Speaking on something you know nothing about is as useful as talking about a food you haven't eaten. Whether you like something, especially when it comes to art, is a matter of you own opinion. Now, just because it's an opinion doesn't mean I should respect it. It should be well-reasoned to be respected. If you're going to parrot something some else has said, don't waste your breath because you sound silly. I pity anyone who makes up their mind on how much they like or dislike something based on someone else's preferences. If I told you I liked snowboarding because my friend Shelly likes snowboarding even though I've never even seen snow, you'd be right to think that I'm an idiot, because I am. Those kinds of derivative opinions don't help anyone. Make up your own mind by watching it or keep your mouth shut and stop wasting people's time with baseless opinions. If you haven't seen Citrus, don't fucking talk about whether it's "good" or "bad," unless you want people to think you're a moron. b) People who don't understand how reviews work. This one isn't surprising since I've seen this go on for years, especially in television series. I don't want to compare series to film since they don't entirely map onto the same narrative structure, but I'll draw parallels when necessary. The major point I'm about to make is that people need to stop "reviewing" a whole series before it's finished. Again, this isn't a straight 1:1 comparison, but think about video games or film. As problematic as scoring scales are, let's accept their use for the sake of argument. Would you score a film or a video game before finishing it? If your answer is yes, you should not be scoring or reviewing anything. There are very few films and videogames that would allow the consumer to gauge an adequate understanding of what they have to offer before full completion of the core narrative. These exceptions include RPG games like Skyrim, Fallout 4, or Grand Theft Auto V for you gamers, and as far as films/television, Pulp Fiction, John Wick, and Arrested Development. These are examples of storytelling that manage to be both an instance where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but also where the parts themselves are so narratively strong or so immersively compelling that you don't need to see the narrative through to the end. In the case with Skyrim and Fallout 4, what I mean is that the world is so compelling and immersive that the narrative is secondary to what you can create yourself. Now what's the point of me saying this? The point is this: great stories, or just stories, have beginnings, middles, and ends. Films have the typical Three Act structure, video games sometimes emulate this as well, and television typically has character arcs or broader narrative arcs such as shows like The Walking Dead. You need to understand the medium you're watching if you're going to attempt to review it. You need to understand what makes film different from television, why strong characters are more difficult to establish in film, and why episodic content should be viewed differently. Again, there are exceptions to episodic content, for instance, South Park for a long time stuck to a weak grand narrative structure in favour of tight narratives in 20-minute self-contained episodes. Family Guy, American Dad, Black Mirror, the vast majority of sitcoms, many shows follow an episodic narrative structure rather than a seasonal one. Shows like The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Dexter, Breaking Bad, and so on, have seasonal narratives. Some story arcs follow single seasons, some follow multiple seasons, and some follow only a few episodes, but these are all important distinctions that need to be understood before. Again for the sake of clarity, shows like 13 Reasons Why and Stranger Things have VERY strong seasonal narratives. They have a focused story that is told beginning-to-end in the span on roughly 9-13 episodes. It would be foolish to attempt to score or review these shows without finishing the narrative arc first. Of course, you can talk about how much you're enjoying them while you're watching, but that is not the same as a review. Just think of what the word "review" really means. It is to "view" something again. Perhaps from a different point of view or to explore and see if you missed something before. The meaning of the word "review" has changed over the last few decades, I would argue for worse, and now it seems to encompass first impressions and seasoned experience. Again, I would urge you to think of what it really means to review something. Which review would you trust more, someone who has seen two episodes or someone who has seen the whole show? Someone who has seen 20 minutes of a film, or watched it til the end? Someone who played 2 hours of The Last of Us, or someone who finished the game? Even with episodic narrative series like South Park, would you trust someone who has only seen a coupe seasons, or someone who has seen them all? I think the answer is simple. Now, you may be asking, "Saucy, why are you talking about such obvious things, you fucking nerd." Well, the thing is, apparently, this isn't obvious. And let me show you an example. This is the first review that comes up when you go to the Citrus homepage on MAL. It's a lengthy review and it really doesn't warrant the length since there are no cogent points being made, but it's a prime example of why people shouldn't review things they aren't competent to review, especially when they haven't even finished the series. For the sake of not making this post a million lines long, I'll quote only the points I want to address, the rest is nonsense. TO SAVE LENGTH, I'LL PUT THIS AS A SPOILER, HAVE FUN! The LR;DR of this: stop reviewing things before you finish watching them! What's the point of this all? I don't care what majority reviewers on MAL think. I think they're incredibly incompetent to review anything and it's readily apparent. I think a 10 point system is not really reflective of quality. I think you should make up your own mind about any anime you watch or any other piece of art. So then what is it? It's the conversation. I'm tired of seeing meaningless conversations about how much people who haven't seen Citrus dislike it. And what's more is that they dislike it without even correctly identifying the type of story it's trying to tell. They're sucking out oxygen from an otherwise fun and engaging conversation. I'm tired of people thinking that they have insights about things they haven't even seen or seen only partially. It needs to stop. When you click on Citrus and you're taken to its home page, the first review that shows up is the one I made an example of. The very first review you see, is an incompetent review made by someone who has not only opted to give their 2c on an anime that hasn't finished airing, but also had the nerve to score it as a 2/10 after watching only 4 episodes. A review that at least 152 idiots have found helpful. The fact that this is on a homepage for a seasonal anime is a fucking disgrace and it shows just how narrow-minded and childish the anime community can be. I have more thoughts on reviews in general, like for instance that it's fucking insane to let people who haven't seen the whole anime to impact it's score by scoring it and letting people review anything without finishing it first, but that's probably a larger topic for another day. This is mostly me venting about my annoyances. Take it or leave it. |
SaucyFeb 18, 2018 8:28 PM
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| You can write the same thread basically for EVERY seasonal anime. |
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| Hey man, I want to humor you, but honestly, this post just seems like the typical "you guys aren't giving the show I like a fair shake" rant into the void. If you don't like previews or episodic reviews or mid-season reviews and you don't see any place for them on the site, then just don't read them. If everyone thought similarly to you then the function would not be on this site and people would not read said reviews. This feels like a purely emotional, knee-jerk reaction, in which you are retroactively trying to justify your outrage. |
fastghosthunterFeb 18, 2018 3:04 PM
MHEEC said: fastghosthunter said: i think i just spotted the guy that hasnt read a word of the OPs messageHey man, I want to humor you, but honestly, this post just seems like the typical "you guys aren't giving the show I like a fair shake" rant into the void. If you don't like previews or episodic reviews or mid-season reviews and you don't see any place for them on the site, then just don't read them. If everyone thought similarly to you then the function would not be on this site and people would not read said reviews. This feels like a purely emotional, knee-jerk reaction, in which you are retroactively trying to justify your outrage. I think I just spotted the guy who thinks he is funny |
fastghosthunter said: MHEEC said: i think i just spotted the guy that hasnt read a word of the OPs message I think I just spotted the guy who thinks he is funny It's actually funny because it does seem like you hadn't read most of my post, which I guess I wouldn't blame you for entirely since it's long, but responding for which I will blame you entirely. The only way your response makes sense is that you either didn't bother reading past a few sentences, or you didn't comprehend what I was writing. As someone else pointed out, my criticism generally maps onto most seasonal anime. It's the fact this vapid and annoying circle of criticism that is levelled at Citrus by a bunch of people who haven't seen it or have only seen a clip on CrunchyRoll is sucking the oxygen out of the room. My other problem was with allowing people to score and review a series without having completed it because that skews reviews. I don't give a shit about review scores, but many people do, and the fact that a bunch of morons can poison the conversation because they want to have opinions on everything even if they have no idea what they're talking about is annoying me to no end. "If you don't like previews or episodic reviews or mid-season reviews and you don't see any place for them on the site, then just don't read them. If everyone thought similarly to you then the function would not be on this site and people would not read said reviews. This feels like a purely emotional, knee-jerk reaction, in which you are retroactively trying to justify your outrage." I never said I don't like episodic reviews. I think reviewing each episode on its own can be good fun. I do it all the time. I don't think scoring each episode makes sense, however, I think the way most threads have an opinion poll ranging from "I didn't like it" to "I loved it" is good. It's a different point scale and it doesn't map onto the overall score itself. What I have a problem with, is people who review and score a series as a whole when they haven't seen the whole. This is a very important difference. If you have seen only four episodes, then you can only speak to those four episodes and you have no business placing a number that is attributed to the show as a whole. And again, I have no problem with people talking about why they dropped a show or why they didn't think it was worth their time, but they need to couch that conversation in that context, not speak to why the show as a whole is bad. The review I pointed out was clearly of the opinion that Citrus was a write-off before it even began and pulled out some weak points from the first four episodes to say "look, the anime community sucks, this show sucks, and my opinions matter!" Well, that's great and all, but your opinion doesn't mean shit if it's not backed up by any reasonable argument. Let me give you an example of how you should talk about something you haven't seen fully, but seen enough to say "hey, that's not for me." I dislike RWBY. I don't have strong opinions on it, I don't think it's terrible or bad simply because I can't justify saying those things. However, I can tell you why I dislike it and why I didn't keep watching it. I hate the CG art style. I don't like the art direction at all. The environments, the character designs, the colors, the animation style, it's just too distracting for me. Also, I can't stand the voice acting. I used to watch Rooster Teeth a lot for their podcasts and other content and I just can't shake the fact that I know many of the voice actors are RT staff who have very little experience in voice acting. I would never just based on that go and score RWBY because that's not useful information. Like, if you're going criticize an anime, or a film, or a TV show on its story and narrative, you should actually understand and see that narrative through. You can maybe criticize they way that narrative is presented, but again, your opinion on the matter will be of limited value. I'm also not sure if you understand what words like: "purely emotional," "knee-jerk reaction," "retroactively," and "outrage" mean because you've certainly used them incorrectly or at the very least have provided no reasons for their use. |
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Saucy said: It's actually funny because it does seem like you hadn't read most of my post, which I guess I wouldn't blame you for entirely since it's long, but responding for which I will blame you entirely. The only way your response makes sense is that you either didn't bother reading past a few sentences, or you didn't comprehend what I was writing. As someone else pointed out, my criticism generally maps onto most seasonal anime. It's the fact this vapid and annoying circle of criticism that is levelled at Citrus by a bunch of people who haven't seen it or have only seen a clip on CrunchyRoll is sucking the oxygen out of the room. My other problem was with allowing people to score and review a series without having completed it because that skews reviews. I don't give a shit about review scores, but many people do, and the fact that a bunch of morons can poison the conversation because they want to have opinions on everything even if they have no idea what they're talking about is annoying me to no end. "If you don't like previews or episodic reviews or mid-season reviews and you don't see any place for them on the site, then just don't read them. If everyone thought similarly to you then the function would not be on this site and people would not read said reviews. This feels like a purely emotional, knee-jerk reaction, in which you are retroactively trying to justify your outrage." I never said I don't like episodic reviews. I think reviewing each episode on its own can be good fun. I do it all the time. I don't think scoring each episode makes sense, however, I think the way most threads have an opinion poll ranging from "I didn't like it" to "I loved it" is good. It's a different point scale and it doesn't map onto the overall score itself. What I have a problem with, is people who review and score a series as a whole when they haven't seen the whole. This is a very important difference. If you have seen only four episodes, then you can only speak to those four episodes and you have no business placing a number that is attributed to the show as a whole. And again, I have no problem with people talking about why they dropped a show or why they didn't think it was worth their time, but they need to couch that conversation in that context, not speak to why the show as a whole is bad. The review I pointed out was clearly of the opinion that Citrus was a write-off before it even began and pulled out some weak points from the first four episodes to say "look, the anime community sucks, this show sucks, and my opinions matter!" Well, that's great and all, but your opinion doesn't mean shit if it's not backed up by any reasonable argument. Let me give you an example of how you should talk about something you haven't seen fully, but seen enough to say "hey, that's not for me." I dislike RWBY. I don't have strong opinions on it, I don't think it's terrible or bad simply because I can't justify saying those things. However, I can tell you why I dislike it and why I didn't keep watching it. I hate the CG art style. I don't like the art direction at all. The environments, the character designs, the colors, the animation style, it's just too distracting for me. Also, I can't stand the voice acting. I used to watch Rooster Teeth a lot for their podcasts and other content and I just can't shake the fact that I know many of the voice actors are RT staff who have very little experience in voice acting. I would never just based on that go and score RWBY because that's not useful information. Like, if you're going criticize an anime, or a film, or a TV show on its story and narrative, you should actually understand and see that narrative through. You can maybe criticize they way that narrative is presented, but again, your opinion on the matter will be of limited value. I'm also not sure if you understand what words like: "purely emotional," "knee-jerk reaction," "retroactively," and "outrage" mean because you've certainly used them incorrectly or at the very least have provided no reasons for their use. I did use the wrong term when I said episodic reviews. I did not want to be too specific. I meant preliminary reviews. I am not trying to be harsh. However, the word salad that you type can be really overwhelming insofar as I don't want to hone in on exactly every word.BUT My point still stands that the majority of your post comes down to "I don't like said thing because it does not conform to my own personal standard". I don't think there are not many people writing preliminary reviews that if you actually messaged said people would say "my opinion based on a quarter or less of the show is the end-all be-all". Maybe their are a few people, but preliminary reviews do serve a useful purpose even if said reviewers don't specifically say "oh btw, I am not judging the whole series". Why is this? Well I think most people can infer that after seeing in the right hand corner of the review that says 8/14 episodes seen or 4/12 episodes seen. Also cmon man. Of course I know what those words mean. Why else would I use them. Now you may not want to be charitable and act like I used them in a way that does not make sense. However, I am sure that most people can read into exactly what I mean. |
fastghosthunterFeb 18, 2018 6:19 PM
MHEEC said: fastghosthunter said: if you had actually read the post, which i bet you didnt, you would be able to understand shes not talking about "personal standards" here. would you like if someone talked shit about you after a 2 minute conversation like they had known you for ages? try to answer that and not prove her rightI am not trying to be harsh. However, the word salad that you type can be really overwhelming insofar as I don't want to hone in on exactly every word.BUT My point still stands that the majority of your post comes down to "I don't like said thing because it does not conform to my own personal standard". I don't think there are many people writing preliminary reviews that if you actually messaged said people would say "my opinion based on a quarter or less of the show is the end-all be-all". Maybe their are a few people, but preliminary reviews do serve a useful purpose even if said reviewers don't specifically say "oh btw, I am not judging the whole series". If you want to have an actual discussion. Quit claiming that I have not read the post. If I did not read the post i would not reference specific things that he/she said. So that's that. Also, she is absolutely talking about her personal standards. She called citrus reviews shallow and vapid. She also went on to give an example about how SHE/HE would PERSONALLY review RWBY. What are we even talking about? |
| @Saucy I agree with your overall idea (applied to all anime generally). I did want to point out that I went and read that guys review. I think it clearly pretty much looks like just a shitposter account. There's not a single anime list entry, and it was only created a month ago, so I wouldn't take what he said seriously to begin with. Another thing - this is directly related to my opinion of Citrus. I've given it a 7/10. In reality it'd be more like a 6.75-ish for me but I gave it the benefit of the doubt. Without some of the obscenely ridiculous setup scenes for lewdness, I'd probably give it an 8/10. ^^I wanted to point that out due to the shitposter's review, I ignored everything about it regarding the show, but what he chose to 'hate on' most emphatically in all caps was 'HOMOSEXUAL ROMANCE'. This is a ridiculous basis of hate in this day and age. As a homosexual myself, I wanted to point that out, and clarify that while I find that certain Citrus scenes definitely push the boundary of feeling comfortable watching - it would be that way whether it was girl-girl, boy-boy, girl-boy, or any possible combination. So I felt his ignorance is his apparent *key point* was unacceptable. |
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| I do agree with the sense that reviews should be made after the entire show has been watched, but you also have to take in mind that some people decide whether or not to watch a series based on others' opinions after the first few episodes. If they see a lot of negative reviews, then some might stray away from watching the show. But really, I think the bigger issue is how review in MAL are generally done Almost 95% of reviews just unnecessarily bash/praise the show without even acknowledging the other side of the show |
 'On-Hold' is another way for a completionist to say 'Dropped' |
J_LEE_C said: The guy isn't a shitposter. He typed to someone that he liked his profile that way. So no he isn't a shitposter.@Saucy I agree with your overall idea (applied to all anime generally). I did want to point out that I went and read that guys review. I think it clearly pretty much looks like just a shitposter account. There's not a single anime list entry, and it was only created a month ago, so I wouldn't take what he said seriously to begin with. Another thing - this is directly related to my opinion of Citrus. I've given it a 7/10. In reality it'd be more like a 6.75-ish for me but I gave it the benefit of the doubt. Without some of the obscenely ridiculous setup scenes for lewdness, I'd probably give it an 8/10. ^^I wanted to point that out due to the shitposter's review, I ignored everything about it regarding the show, but what he chose to 'hate on' most emphatically in all caps was 'HOMOSEXUAL ROMANCE'. This is a ridiculous basis of hate in this day and age. As a homosexual myself, I wanted to point that out, and clarify that while I find that certain Citrus scenes definitely push the boundary of feeling comfortable watching - it would be that way whether it was girl-girl, boy-boy, girl-boy, or any possible combination. So I felt his ignorance is his apparent *key point* was unacceptable. |
Botan-Chan45Feb 18, 2018 7:42 PM
| Yeah right there is no way a doujin about vomit exists. Good song https://soundcloud.com/yeungkakit33/op4-hekireki-last-alliance Tsumino account is BigMaraIppo Another Good Song Listen to テスト by mukami #np on #SoundCloud https://soundcloud.com/mukami/77a Ashita no Joe and Megalo box are disappointing anime. My reviews:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Botan-Chan45/reviews Best Naruto Op: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByCNZxOBVWM&list=RDByCNZxOBVWM&index=1 discord name: Chitoge Kirisaki#9564 https://discord.gg/nGKu6zx my discord server for plebs |
| I think there's nothing wrong with reviewing the first few episodes of a show as it airs. Some people want to know what the show is like before it finishes airing to decide whether or not to start watching it and join in on the conversation surrounding it. These reviews aren't going to stay up there once the show has ended and will instead be replaced by those that cover the full show. Don't forget that the internet is overrun by mentally immature 12 year olds who are also part of the conversation and also write "reviews". You expect too much from people. They aren't going to read your post either so you're just wasting your time. Most people also form their opinion on things by copying the opinion of someone they look up to which is part of the reason the world is so fucked up as some people can control public opinion in politics through popular actors and musicians. On the bright side, there are plenty of shows that had bad reviews and got shit on constantly as they were airing but managed to completely bounce back once they finished airing. For example Steins Gate, Shinsekai Yori or Houseki no Kuni. All the idiots with their early impressions didn't make any difference in the long run for any of these shows. |
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I mostly agree except that there should be previews of a show that is currently airing. There is no point telling people that they shouldn't be able to say what they have with the series being bad. It's their subjective opinion and they should be able to type whats on their mind. Though they might be idiots, at least let them talk. But, I agree with your points. Good job. |
Botan-Chan45Feb 18, 2018 7:48 PM
| Yeah right there is no way a doujin about vomit exists. Good song https://soundcloud.com/yeungkakit33/op4-hekireki-last-alliance Tsumino account is BigMaraIppo Another Good Song Listen to テスト by mukami #np on #SoundCloud https://soundcloud.com/mukami/77a Ashita no Joe and Megalo box are disappointing anime. My reviews:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Botan-Chan45/reviews Best Naruto Op: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByCNZxOBVWM&list=RDByCNZxOBVWM&index=1 discord name: Chitoge Kirisaki#9564 https://discord.gg/nGKu6zx my discord server for plebs |
fastghosthunter said: I did use the wrong term when I said episodic reviews. I did not want to be too specific. I meant preliminary reviews. I am not trying to be harsh. However, the word salad that you type can be really overwhelming insofar as I don't want to hone in on exactly every word.BUT My point still stands that the majority of your post comes down to "I don't like said thing because it does not conform to my own personal standard". I don't think there are not many people writing preliminary reviews that if you actually messaged said people would say "my opinion based on a quarter or less of the show is the end-all be-all". Maybe their are a few people, but preliminary reviews do serve a useful purpose even if said reviewers don't specifically say "oh btw, I am not judging the whole series". Why is this? Well I think most people can infer that after seeing in the right hand corner of the review that says 8/14 episodes seen or 4/12 episodes seen. Also cmon man. Of course I know what those words mean. Why else would I use them. Now you may not want to be charitable and act like I used them in a way that does not make sense. However, I am sure that most people can read into exactly what I mean. Again, it doesn't seem you grasped my point. Preliminary reviews are exactly my gripe. The review I pointed out may not be representative of all preliminary reviews, but it's still the one people see first and it echoes a sentiment I've seen not only on MAL but also facebook. In fact, the sentiment that it's just a dumb romance yuri-bait anime is consistent on any post I see on facebook by Crunchyroll. Maybe facebook and MAL aren't the central hub of popular anime opinion, but they tend to walk hand-in-hand and that's what I'm exposed to. The review I mentioned is specifically telling people that Citrus is not worth their time. Now, it's one thing to say that you don't like something. I'm ready to be more charitable and say, well, even if your reasons suck, whatever, you do what you like. But when you're claiming to give a review and what's more is that you're arguing for why people shouldn't watch something, you better know what you're talking about and you better have good reasons if you're trying to influence me. Imagine if I told you to never buy an Apple product because I used an iPhone at an Apple booth at BestBuy for a few minutes. You'd think I lost my god-damn mind. Or if a friend of yours told you not to buy a certain video game because he came over to Jimmy's house, they played it for a couple hours, and he didn't like it. Why on earth would you be convinced by that? But clearly people are influenced by such opinions and in my post I'm simply venting my frustration with this kind of opinion-forming. I don't have the energy nor the passion to petition MAL or do something else to fight against what are in my opinion batshit insane reviews and score bombing of shows people don't like because they're edgy. There's no point. All I hoped was to vent about this kind of bullshit and see what people thought. If you find value in preliminary reviews for some reason, all the power to you. I for one, cannot think of many instances where anyone can give insightful commentary on a piece of art that was unambiguously meant to be consumed as a whole rather than in part. |
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| Damn I did't know you debunked his review. Noice |
| Yeah right there is no way a doujin about vomit exists. Good song https://soundcloud.com/yeungkakit33/op4-hekireki-last-alliance Tsumino account is BigMaraIppo Another Good Song Listen to テスト by mukami #np on #SoundCloud https://soundcloud.com/mukami/77a Ashita no Joe and Megalo box are disappointing anime. My reviews:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Botan-Chan45/reviews Best Naruto Op: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByCNZxOBVWM&list=RDByCNZxOBVWM&index=1 discord name: Chitoge Kirisaki#9564 https://discord.gg/nGKu6zx my discord server for plebs |
J_LEE_C said: @Saucy I agree with your overall idea (applied to all anime generally). I did want to point out that I went and read that guys review. I think it clearly pretty much looks like just a shitposter account. There's not a single anime list entry, and it was only created a month ago, so I wouldn't take what he said seriously to begin with. Another thing - this is directly related to my opinion of Citrus. I've given it a 7/10. In reality it'd be more like a 6.75-ish for me but I gave it the benefit of the doubt. Without some of the obscenely ridiculous setup scenes for lewdness, I'd probably give it an 8/10. ^^I wanted to point that out due to the shitposter's review, I ignored everything about it regarding the show, but what he chose to 'hate on' most emphatically in all caps was 'HOMOSEXUAL ROMANCE'. This is a ridiculous basis of hate in this day and age. As a homosexual myself, I wanted to point that out, and clarify that while I find that certain Citrus scenes definitely push the boundary of feeling comfortable watching - it would be that way whether it was girl-girl, boy-boy, girl-boy, or any possible combination. So I felt his ignorance is his apparent *key point* was unacceptable. It crossed my mind that maybe this was a typical trolling review at first, especially with the "HOMOSEXUAL ROMANCE" in capitals for whatever reason, but since that wasn't referenced after at all really, I don't know what to make of it. And I DID check their profile. If anything, I think this person has tried to watch it, or at least it sounds that way from the questions they brought up. But what rubbed me the wrong way was the conviction in their assertion that nobody should care about this anime. The way someone can make up their mind so quickly with such little evidence. And look, I'm not playing thought police. If you don't like something, whatever, not my business. But to parade you dislike of something and coat it in the veneer of "advice" meant to persuade people, that's going a little too far. The reason I take this seriously, or at least thing it's worth my attention, is because it appears first in reviews and seems to enjoy at least some praise as being "helpful." That's almost an insult to me that so many people would read that and go, "yeah, I don't see a problem with this opinion, seems pretty sound and helpful." I can only wish you'd see the look of visible confusion on my face as I attempt to imagine what goes on in the mind of someone who thinks this way. 5layer said: I think there's nothing wrong with reviewing the first few episodes of a show as it airs. Some people want to know what the show is like before it finishes airing to decide whether or not to start watching it and join in on the conversation surrounding it. These reviews aren't going to stay up there once the show has ended and will instead be replaced by those that cover the full show. Don't forget that the internet is overrun by mentally immature 12 year olds who are also part of the conversation and also write "reviews". You expect too much from people. They aren't going to read your post either so you're just wasting your time. Most people also form their opinion on things by copying the opinion of someone they look up to which is part of the reason the world is so fucked up as some people can control public opinion in politics through popular actors and musicians. On the bright side, there are plenty of shows that had bad reviews and got shit on constantly as they were airing but managed to completely bounce back once they finished airing. For example Steins Gate, Shinsekai Yori or Houseki no Kuni. All the idiots with their early impressions didn't make any difference in the long run for any of these shows. Maybe it's a difference to terms, but "review," to me, means more than mere commentary. It involves careful analysis and thought. I watch Citrus with a friend, and I actively analyze each episode, the character arcs, motivations, actions, and so on. But I would not dare call that a "review." When you're claiming to review the narrative merit of something, you have to take wholesale the narrative as it is. To cut it off at an arbitrary point is just not useful. Sure, you can talk about how you felt about the first episode, second, third, etc etc. I'm sure that has sway on whether you want to continue watching the series or not. But at this point, every time you make a new review, the previous one becomes instantly outdated. To review something multiple times is just quite frankly a waste of time. Think of this, again, from a consumer product standpoint. If I buy an iPhone and do daily reviews of it, at what point exactly do you think I would have given you enough information to make an informed purchase? Would you prefer an iPhone review from someone who had it for a week or for a year? (all else being equal and ignoring how fast phones become obsolete) What's wrong, in my opinion, is to equate those kinds of reviews. And you're right, I don't know the logistics of how these reviews work. Maybe once Citrus is done airing the preliminary reviews will be replaced by ones from people who finished it, but that only slightly changes my argument. Will those scores be changed? Will they be weighted the same? I don't know. I don't necessarily really care. My gripe is with the conversation now. The top review right now is not only unhelpful, but it's almost malicious and it certainly seems to have swayed opinions of at least some people. People who may have otherwise watched and enjoyed the show but for the inaccurate reviews and toxic conversations surround the anime. I wish people's opinions wouldn't be swayed by this bullshit, but it seems they are. |
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Saucy said: J_LEE_C said: @Saucy I agree with your overall idea (applied to all anime generally). I did want to point out that I went and read that guys review. I think it clearly pretty much looks like just a shitposter account. There's not a single anime list entry, and it was only created a month ago, so I wouldn't take what he said seriously to begin with. Another thing - this is directly related to my opinion of Citrus. I've given it a 7/10. In reality it'd be more like a 6.75-ish for me but I gave it the benefit of the doubt. Without some of the obscenely ridiculous setup scenes for lewdness, I'd probably give it an 8/10. ^^I wanted to point that out due to the shitposter's review, I ignored everything about it regarding the show, but what he chose to 'hate on' most emphatically in all caps was 'HOMOSEXUAL ROMANCE'. This is a ridiculous basis of hate in this day and age. As a homosexual myself, I wanted to point that out, and clarify that while I find that certain Citrus scenes definitely push the boundary of feeling comfortable watching - it would be that way whether it was girl-girl, boy-boy, girl-boy, or any possible combination. So I felt his ignorance is his apparent *key point* was unacceptable. It crossed my mind that maybe this was a typical trolling review at first, especially with the "HOMOSEXUAL ROMANCE" in capitals for whatever reason, but since that wasn't referenced after at all really, I don't know what to make of it. And I DID check their profile. If anything, I think this person has tried to watch it, or at least it sounds that way from the questions they brought up. But what rubbed me the wrong way was the conviction in their assertion that nobody should care about this anime. The way someone can make up their mind so quickly with such little evidence. And look, I'm not playing thought police. If you don't like something, whatever, not my business. But to parade you dislike of something and coat it in the veneer of "advice" meant to persuade people, that's going a little too far. The reason I take this seriously, or at least thing it's worth my attention, is because it appears first in reviews and seems to enjoy at least some praise as being "helpful." That's almost an insult to me that so many people would read that and go, "yeah, I don't see a problem with this opinion, seems pretty sound and helpful." I can only wish you'd see the look of visible confusion on my face as I attempt to imagine what goes on in the mind of someone who thinks this way. Yeah, I do empathize with you there. Just know there are some of us out there who care like you do as well. |
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Saucy said: Maybe it's a difference to terms, but "review," to me, means more than mere commentary. It involves careful analysis and thought. I watch Citrus with a friend, and I actively analyze each episode, the character arcs, motivations, actions, and so on. But I would not dare call that a "review." When you're claiming to review the narrative merit of something, you have to take wholesale the narrative as it is. To cut it off at an arbitrary point is just not useful. Sure, you can talk about how you felt about the first episode, second, third, etc etc. I'm sure that has sway on whether you want to continue watching the series or not. But at this point, every time you make a new review, the previous one becomes instantly outdated. To review something multiple times is just quite frankly a waste of time. Think of this, again, from a consumer product standpoint. If I buy an iPhone and do daily reviews of it, at what point exactly do you think I would have given you enough information to make an informed purchase? Would you prefer an iPhone review from someone who had it for a week or for a year? (all else being equal and ignoring how fast phones become obsolete) What's wrong, in my opinion, is to equate those kinds of reviews. And you're right, I don't know the logistics of how these reviews work. Maybe once Citrus is done airing the preliminary reviews will be replaced by ones from people who finished it, but that only slightly changes my argument. Will those scores be changed? Will they be weighted the same? I don't know. I don't necessarily really care. My gripe is with the conversation now. The top review right now is not only unhelpful, but it's almost malicious and it certainly seems to have swayed opinions of at least some people. People who may have otherwise watched and enjoyed the show but for the inaccurate reviews and toxic conversations surround the anime. I wish people's opinions wouldn't be swayed by this bullshit, but it seems they are. You can review just the first episode of any anime regardless of whether it is finished or not. It would just be a review of the first episode. I agree a review should be more than mere commentary, but it's definitely possible to write a review for a fraction of a piece of work. Whether someone finds the review of a single episode useful or not is up to the individual. People who are so easily swayed into hating this show are the ones missing out since they aren't able to get the enjoyment you are getting out of it. You should stop caring about others' enjoyment. You technically win here since you're having a good time while they are not. One could argue it has an influence on the types of works that get produced in the future, but ultimately what sells in Japan determines what gets made and there's a disconnect between the Japanese and English communities thanks to the language barrier so it doesn't even matter what the MAL community thinks is good or not. I would suggest you read the comments of people who like the show and ignore the comments of people who do not. |
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5layer said: Saucy said: Maybe it's a difference to terms, but "review," to me, means more than mere commentary. It involves careful analysis and thought. I watch Citrus with a friend, and I actively analyze each episode, the character arcs, motivations, actions, and so on. But I would not dare call that a "review." When you're claiming to review the narrative merit of something, you have to take wholesale the narrative as it is. To cut it off at an arbitrary point is just not useful. Sure, you can talk about how you felt about the first episode, second, third, etc etc. I'm sure that has sway on whether you want to continue watching the series or not. But at this point, every time you make a new review, the previous one becomes instantly outdated. To review something multiple times is just quite frankly a waste of time. Think of this, again, from a consumer product standpoint. If I buy an iPhone and do daily reviews of it, at what point exactly do you think I would have given you enough information to make an informed purchase? Would you prefer an iPhone review from someone who had it for a week or for a year? (all else being equal and ignoring how fast phones become obsolete) What's wrong, in my opinion, is to equate those kinds of reviews. And you're right, I don't know the logistics of how these reviews work. Maybe once Citrus is done airing the preliminary reviews will be replaced by ones from people who finished it, but that only slightly changes my argument. Will those scores be changed? Will they be weighted the same? I don't know. I don't necessarily really care. My gripe is with the conversation now. The top review right now is not only unhelpful, but it's almost malicious and it certainly seems to have swayed opinions of at least some people. People who may have otherwise watched and enjoyed the show but for the inaccurate reviews and toxic conversations surround the anime. I wish people's opinions wouldn't be swayed by this bullshit, but it seems they are. You can review just the first episode of any anime regardless of whether it is finished or not. It would just be a review of the first episode. I agree a review should be more than mere commentary, but it's definitely possible to write a review for a fraction of a piece of work. Whether someone finds the review of a single episode useful or not is up to the individual. People who are so easily swayed into hating this show are the ones missing out since they aren't able to get the enjoyment you are getting out of it. You should stop caring about others' enjoyment. You technically win here since you're having a good time while they are not. One could argue it has an influence on the types of works that get produced in the future, but ultimately what sells in Japan determines what gets made and there's a disconnect between the Japanese and English communities thanks to the language barrier so it doesn't even matter what the MAL community thinks is good or not. I would suggest you read the comments of people who like the show and ignore the comments of people who do not. Oh for sure, you can review a fraction of a work. What I'm saying is that it either had limited value or no value at all in most instances. You are right in the sense that people are missing out on the enjoyment, but I don't really care about that. I care more about people having good reasons for holding certain beliefs and when I see conversations about Citrus that are informed by complete ignorance or blatant disregard for truth, I can't help but be annoyed. Sometimes, I need to let out my frustrations, which I guess were in the form of a post here. Ultimately, who cares. People won't stop my enjoyment of anything I like. But it's people like the reviewer I mentioned or other people who haven't even seen it that make it hard to like anime openly. If you're talking to one of these people about anime and you say: "oh yeah, I'm watching Citrus" and their reply is that they think it's bad or they've heard it's bad because there are weird scenes in it or something, it's a total conversation stopper and rather than saying, "oh, I haven't seen it, heard some stuff, but no idea," people seem to want to have opinions on things even if they haven't experienced them. And it's not always just a matter of opinion. You can literally tell them that they're objectively wrong because they have formed an opinion based on faulty information. |
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Saucy said: You are right in the sense that people are missing out on the enjoyment, but I don't really care about that. I care more about people having good reasons for holding certain beliefs and when I see conversations about Citrus that are informed by complete ignorance or blatant disregard for truth, I can't help but be annoyed. Sometimes, I need to let out my frustrations, which I guess were in the form of a post here. Ultimately, who cares. People won't stop my enjoyment of anything I like. But it's people like the reviewer I mentioned or other people who haven't even seen it that make it hard to like anime openly. If you're talking to one of these people about anime and you say: "oh yeah, I'm watching Citrus" and their reply is that they think it's bad or they've heard it's bad because there are weird scenes in it or something, it's a total conversation stopper and rather than saying, "oh, I haven't seen it, heard some stuff, but no idea," people seem to want to have opinions on things even if they haven't experienced them. And it's not always just a matter of opinion. You can literally tell them that they're objectively wrong because they have formed an opinion based on faulty information. If you're looking for people to talk to openly about Citrus (or some other anime you like), there are plenty of people in the episode discussions who seem to be enjoying it. There's nothing stopping you from reaching out to them to talk about it. I'm sure most of them would be happy to be quoted in the discussion. You can be the change you want to see by adding positive discussion to the community and drowning out the negative opinions. It's easier said than done but that's how it is. |
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| Hey, I give ratings on shows while their still airing! And they barely change after it's done. I also have opinions on a shows even just after its 1st episode premiere. Also, the first review is completely correct. Citrus is a fanservice show first and foremost, it wears its cheap soap opera writing on its sleeve as well. It's honest, indulgent fanservice. It only cares for the character logistics as far as to push the main ship as far as it can, so we can have lovey dovey touchey scenes. Also, it's fine people to dislike what you like as much as it is for you to dislike what they like. Welcome to the internet, people have opinions! Does it feel bad when something that you like gets trashed? Sure, but that's just part of ecosystem. The solution I've found is to ask "why?", to satiate my own curiosity and expand my own perspective. And that's coming from a fan of Citrus who also sees its faults. |
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| no matter how much explanation you want to give them they just want to believe on their own theory.they want to believe which they`ve learn from their childhood till now is always 100% perfect.they`re selfish,they don` want to consider the circumstance.I think the`re like that IRL as well. I think you`re wasting your time to explain it to those people.they will always refuse to recognizing it.so I think ignoring them is the best solution.  |
MeinokoibitoFeb 19, 2018 2:50 AM
T3hSource said: Hey, I give ratings on shows while their still airing! And they barely change after it's done. I also have opinions on a shows even just after its 1st episode premiere. Also, the first review is completely correct. Citrus is a fanservice show first and foremost, it wears its cheap soap opera writing on its sleeve as well. It's honest, indulgent fanservice. It only cares for the character logistics as far as to push the main ship as far as it can, so we can have lovey dovey touchey scenes. Also, it's fine people to dislike what you like as much as it is for you to dislike what they like. Welcome to the internet, people have opinions! Does it feel bad when something that you like gets trashed? Sure, but that's just part of ecosystem. The solution I've found is to ask "why?", to satiate my own curiosity and expand my own perspective. And that's coming from a fan of Citrus who also sees its faults. I think it's pretty absurd to call it a soap opera since it's missing the overly dramatic and idealistic elements of what makes a soap, but that's neither here nor there. The first review is not correct and I've already pointed out why. This idea that it's fan-service or that fan-service is bad... Fan-service in when it comes to yuri is something like Sakura Trick where each episode is mainly centered around how we can get these girls to kiss. Citrus is trying to tell a story and just because it has scenes where characters make out and get frisky does not mean it's fan-service. Especially when these scenes are often uncomfortable. Who are they trying to please exactly? The sexual assault demographic of anime viewers? The reactions to most of these scenes from many people have been quite negative and I've seen many people say they don't watch it because of these scenes. I haven't seen a lot of anime, but I can compare some elements of Citrus to Kuzu no Honkai. Kuzu, to my knowledge, had not received many accusations of fan-service, yet it involved a lot of sex, and a lot of uncomfortable sex scenes as well. Arguably, the protagonist of Kuzu no Honkai, much like Yuzu, is sexually assaulted many times in much the same manner. There are scenes where a girl sexually pressures and takes advantage of her best friend and uses that friendship as leverage to continue taking advantage. Why didn't people call that fan-service? Oh, I know, because Citrus is a self-declared yuri anime and it's hip and edgy to say that all yuri anime is fan-service. What a sophisticated opinion.... Also, this idea that fan-service is bad and somehow makes an anime bad? What exactly is fanservice? It's giving the "fans" what they want, right? Well by that definition, aren't many films/television fan-service as well? Especially when they're based on existing IPs? Game of Thrones is a fan-service show, right? The recent waves of superhero films like the Avengers, Iron Man, Captain America, Spiderman, etc, they're all fan-service, right? John Wick is fan-service, right? All of these films and series give fans exactly what they want. Violence, sex, comedy, excitement, epic moments, stylish fights, etc. Does that make them bad? I'd be hard pressed to say that fan-service is inherently bad and people using it as some sort of insult to say that something is bad or isn't worth watching is blatantly absurd and close-minded. Fan-service is only bad if it sacrifices the plot and so far, nobody has been able to properly argue that even if Citrus has "fan-service," it does so at the expense of the plot. For one, the yuri scenes are usually reflective of character motivations and emotions, and two, if you're going to claim these scenes don't fit into the plot, I think it stands to reason that maybe you should actually know how the plot develops before you claim it serves no purpose. I realize you've apparently read the current volumes so you probably know where it goes, but even based on my viewing of the current 7 episodes, I struggle to find support for the assertion that Citrus is a mere soap with fan-service. |
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| It does kind of irk me how so many people are giving Citrus a low score and passing it off as a fetish yuri series because of the first few episodes. It's really so much more than that, and seeing all those lore scores because of "incest rape" is kind of frustrating. I feel like people should really wait to experience an entire series before rating it, something I personally abide to which is why I never rate series until I've finished them. Oh well, at the end of the day you can't change people. Best to just ignore those reviews and just enjoy what you like. |
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| What you say can be applied to any other review made or score given before a series has finished airing. I agree that often there really isn't a point in a review before the has finished airing, but number of episodes the person has watched is there for a reason. If you feel that the show changes gear further down or your opinion hasn't quite settled, then take the review with a grain of salt. Saucy said: *raises hand*I haven't seen a lot of anime, but I can compare some elements of Citrus to Kuzu no Honkai. Kuzu, to my knowledge, had not received many accusations of fan-service, yet it involved a lot of sex, and a lot of uncomfortable sex scenes as well. Arguably, the protagonist of Kuzu no Honkai, much like Yuzu, is sexually assaulted many times in much the same manner. There are scenes where a girl sexually pressures and takes advantage of her best friend and uses that friendship as leverage to continue taking advantage. Why didn't people call that fan-service? Oh, I know, because Citrus is a self-declared yuri anime and it's hip and edgy to say that all yuri anime is fan-service. What a sophisticated opinion.... If I thought the same about Kuzu no Honkai, then is my opinion at least consistent? I didn't call Kuzu no Honkai fanservice, but I thought of all the characters in Kuzu no Honkai is very similar ways to the way I think of Mei. yourbraveshine said: I'd actually be much more understanding and positive about a series meant to specifically cater to a yuri fetish. It's much more annoying when a series like Citrus attempts plot but can't quite capture me.It does kind of irk me how so many people are giving Citrus a low score and passing it off as a fetish yuri series because of the first few episodes. It's really so much more than that, and seeing all those lore scores because of "incest rape" is kind of frustrating. I feel like people should really wait to experience an entire series before rating it, something I personally abide to which is why I never rate series until I've finished them. It's hard to feel very engrossed in the series when it's built upon a pretty unsatisfactory initial interaction of the 2 main characters. I can't understand what's the deal with Mei's attitude. I feel like the series moved on ahead, completely missing out explaining why Mei is like that and how Yuzu isn't bloody annoyed at her. Though just like you, I do refrain from scoring an anime that is currently airing myself. |
| I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
| @Saucy I never said fanservice is bad. And yes, the plot does naturally include it in this case. It's almost like it was intentionally written that way as if it was running in a Yuri magazine, for an audience that finds girls getting it on hot. And yes, compared to Kuzu, the frisky scenes are a lot more hot than uncomfortable. Funnily enough I started Citrus last year as a palette cleanser for Kuzu's atrocious character drama. While miles better in comparison, Citrus isn't anything profound, and for all the sexual assoult we're getting now, it gets more and more innocuous as it goes on. But here's an example of why Citrus isn't even trying to have anything more than basic drama. In episode 7, Harumin seems keenly aware that Matsuri is trouble, as it she's the villain of the current arc, whereas Yuzu is blissfully oblivious about her intentions despite being told by Matsuri herself that she's involved in shady dealings. Only to have the classic telephone call to remove a character from the scene. And then followed up by another call to stop Matsuri from assaulting Yuzu, and yet have Yuzu turn her ass towards Matsuri and in center of the shot. I can definitely see why you would see the drama to be compelling, and I do share that sentiment. But I also see how blatant it is about its intentions, which also gives it an air of transparency and honesty, trusting its audience that it's just basic writing and enjoy the visuals with hot girls. |
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| Who cares about the review section? It's been shit ever since MAL removed the "Not helpful" button. I just want the girls to stop sexually assaulting each other |
 Nico- said: Conversations with people pinging/quoting me to argue about some old post I wrote years ago will not be entertained@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite |
BurningSpirit said: If I thought the same about Kuzu no Honkai, then is my opinion at least consistent? I didn't call Kuzu no Honkai fanservice, but I thought of all the characters in Kuzu no Honkai is very similar ways to the way I think of Mei. I'd actually be much more understanding and positive about a series meant to specifically cater to a yuri fetish. It's much more annoying when a series like Citrus attempts plot but can't quite capture me. It's hard to feel very engrossed in the series when it's built upon a pretty unsatisfactory initial interaction of the 2 main characters. I can't understand what's the deal with Mei's attitude. I feel like the series moved on ahead, completely missing out explaining why Mei is like that and how Yuzu isn't bloody annoyed at her. Though just like you, I do refrain from scoring an anime that is currently airing myself. I mean....you thought the same about Kuzu as far as it's also fan-service? To me, the point is exactly that. Mei is similar to characters in Kuzu as far as her views on love and sex. Kuzu shows a pretty ugly side of romance and relationships. Mei is the anti-romantic character in a romance anime. Now, that's not too uncommon in romcoms and love stories, especially in anime and the tsundere obsession. But Mei is not a tsundere. She doesn't secretly love Yuzu while pretending to be a bitch. She only catches a glimpse of attraction to Yuzu in episode 6, that is half-way through the season and even then, she immediately pushes back after. She's clearly conflicted, but there's something more sinister about the way she views love, which is similar to how many characters act in Kuzu no Honkai. I completely disagree on the yuri fetish. If you want to satisfy your fetishes, there is plenty of hentai around. Shoujo Sect is a good example of your typical yuri fetish series. Maybe you could put Sakura Trick into that category if you can call cute kissing a fetish, but I would hardly concede that. Although I liked Sakura Trick, I thought it was wasted potential. And maybe this is where we all depart on preference, but I want a yuri series that deals with romance well. Out of all the yuri related anime I've seen, which isn't all of yuri anime out there by any means, I think they all pale in comparison to the way Kuzu no Honkai dealt with the yuri plotline. What I want is a good mix of realism and idealism. I'm a romantic, but I want good writing. I think it's boring to demand realism in romance, because well, it's awkward and it's not exactly always pretty or fun to watch. So long as people have good and relatable motivations and explanations for their actions, I'll be happy. This is why I wasn't happy with Strawberry Panic. While the main plot was acceptable, but the anime was far too distracted by side-plots which suffocated the focus of the main plot. By contrast, Citrus is quite focused and doesn't seem to wish to waste our times. Each "arc" so far has had a utilitarian purpose of furthering the relationship between Mei and Yuzu, which to mean is good writing. I'm not interested in nit-picking the details since that exercise provides little reward apart from amusement. T3hSource said: @Saucy I never said fanservice is bad. And yes, the plot does naturally include it in this case. It's almost like it was intentionally written that way as if it was running in a Yuri magazine, for an audience that finds girls getting it on hot. And yes, compared to Kuzu, the frisky scenes are a lot more hot than uncomfortable. Funnily enough I started Citrus last year as a palette cleanser for Kuzu's atrocious character drama. While miles better in comparison, Citrus isn't anything profound, and for all the sexual assoult we're getting now, it gets more and more innocuous as it goes on. But here's an example of why Citrus isn't even trying to have anything more than basic drama. In episode 7, Harumin seems keenly aware that Matsuri is trouble, as it she's the villain of the current arc, whereas Yuzu is blissfully oblivious about her intentions despite being told by Matsuri herself that she's involved in shady dealings. Only to have the classic telephone call to remove a character from the scene. And then followed up by another call to stop Matsuri from assaulting Yuzu, and yet have Yuzu turn her ass towards Matsuri and in center of the shot. I can definitely see why you would see the drama to be compelling, and I do share that sentiment. But I also see how blatant it is about its intentions, which also gives it an air of transparency and honesty, trusting its audience that it's just basic writing and enjoy the visuals with hot girls. Fan-service for who? Fans of sexual assault and uncomfortable sex scenes? Here is what I would call fan-service. Fate/Kaleid involving a character who is a twin sister that needs to kiss people in order to stay alive and recharge her powers. This is not only a completely batshit crazy way to get two, mind you loli, girls to kiss, but it also completely interrupts the plot. In that instance, it is complete fan-service because it does nothing to further the plot, it doesn't play into character motivations, and it doesn't have a good explanation. It's just kind of, a thing... The scenes in Citrus, while they don't bother me, are not exactly glorified lesbian makeout/sex scenes. They're fairly violent and troubling as far the plot goes, and they do actually make some sense, even if the motivations aren't quite clear right now. This is why I wouldn't call it fan-service. It just doesn't seem to have wide appeal and it serves the plot. If you still think that's fan-service, that's fine, but I refuse to accept that criticism as a black mark against Citrus. Also, I find it shocking that you think Citrus is better than Kuzu no Honkai. As it stands right now I think Citrus is approaching Kuzu no Honkai, but it's not there yet. Kuzu had incredibly satisfying and developed characters with clear motivations. If anything, I wishe Kuzu didn't spend so much time explaining why characters do what the do because it's very obvious. Everything that happens is very logical and easy to see through the end. Again, you seem to think that "drama" is a dirty word that alone amounts to some cogent criticism of plot. It's not. There is good and bad drama. Good drama involves clear motivations and satisfying plot. Bad drama is more or less random with deus-ex machina and no real cause and effect in what happens on screen. Citrus is not the latter, albeit it's not quite firmly in the former category either. So far, it's a decent romance drama. I don't like talking in the terms of what the anime is trying to convey, since a lot of it is open to interpretation, but there are a few things we can easily infer. For one, Citrus is trying to tell a romance story between two very different and difficult girls. Two, it's trying to explore ideas of social pressures, family pressures, what it means to really love someone, and what it means to be there for someone. All of these themes are being explored, in my opinion, competently. I strongly disagree that Citrus is portraying itself as a simplistic lesbian smut anime. That's clearly not the case. One of the main characters is a complete mystery and when you do see sexual moments, they aren't what you would hope for, unless you're into non-consensual groping. Also, your criticism of episode 7 isn't that convincing. Yuzu's lack of skepticism is completely consistent with her character. She is a naive and credulous romantic. Of course she wouldn't question her childhood friend's motivations. |
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Saucy said: No, I thought both series tried too hard in making their characters a certain way that it failed.I mean....you thought the same about Kuzu as far as it's also fan-service? For Kuzu no Honkai, they tried to make their characters such scum that it went overboard and it came right round to unrealistic again. For Citrus, it's their attempt to stray from the typical yuri interaction between the 2 main characters. One has to be the initiator while the other takes it. One has to push their relationship while the other resists. One has to make the physical advances while the other tries to escape. One has to lust for the other while the other says it's taboo. And in my (limited) exposure to yuri, most the time all the former lies in one character and the latter in the other. Citrus mixes and matches these traits, which ends up with 2 strange combination of characters. While Yuzu's character still holds up decently, I don't get the motivation behind Mei AT ALL. Saucy said: Kuzu no Honkai wasn't about love, it was about replacing love with a shallow physical relationship.To me, the point is exactly that. Mei is similar to characters in Kuzu as far as her views on love and sex. Kuzu shows a pretty ugly side of romance and relationships. Mei is the anti-romantic character in a romance anime. Now, that's not too uncommon in romcoms and love stories, especially in anime and the tsundere obsession. But Mei is not a tsundere. She doesn't secretly love Yuzu while pretending to be a bitch. She only catches a glimpse of attraction to Yuzu in episode 6, that is half-way through the season and even then, she immediately pushes back after. She's clearly conflicted, but there's something more sinister about the way she views love, which is similar to how many characters act in Kuzu no Honkai. Kuzu no Honkai has its own set of issues which Citrus actually doesn't have, so it can be up for discussion another time. However one thing is that Kuzu no Honkai's character motivations are very clear from the start, something which isn't the case for Mei. I'm not drawing any conclusions yet (because they could still very much still expand on this), but they certainly need to establish why Mei is a conflicted bitch that views love this way. Saucy said: I didn't say Citrus was a yuri fetish anime. I think you misunderstood.I completely disagree on the yuri fetish. If you want to satisfy your fetishes, there is plenty of hentai around. [spoiler]Shoujo Sect is a good example of your typical yuri fetish series. Maybe you could put Sakura Trick into that category if you can call cute kissing a fetish, but I would hardly concede that. Although I liked Sakura Trick, I thought it was wasted potential. I said that I'm confused with Citrus because IT ISN"T a yuri fetish anime. It's a yuri anime that attempts plot. However my point was, the plot that is tacked onto the series isn't that good. The plot takes away time from yuri scenes, so you end up with neither. Saucy said: Yeah Citrus is quite focused on the relationship between Mei and Yuzu.And maybe this is where we all depart on preference, but I want a yuri series that deals with romance well. By contrast, Citrus is quite focused and doesn't seem to wish to waste our times. Each "arc" so far has had a utilitarian purpose of furthering the relationship between Mei and Yuzu, which to mean is good writing. I'm not interested in nit-picking the details since that exercise provides little reward apart from amusement. One way to put it is as you did, Saucy said: Citrus is quite focused and doesn't seem to wish to waste our times. Each "arc" so far has had a utilitarian purpose of furthering the relationship between Mei and Yuzu Another way to put it is that every arc is a bare bones plot device (as is every character introduced within it). Add a few "Grandpa collapses to the ground", "Papa comes home from nowhere" and "Harumin suddenly gets called back home by her sister" to it, then it starts to feel a bit contrived. Case in point, where are all the important characters in the previous "arcs"? Aside from Harumin (which is the long term emotional support character), teacher Mei was assigned to get married to ran away, Grandpa disappeared, Momokino is relegated to background appearances in the council and papa went back to whichever part of the world. That's how much of a contrived plot device they all feel like. I quite hope Matsuri will be treated somewhat differently going forward, because I do like her as a character so far. |
| I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
| @BurningSpirit Too lazy to quote so just in points. 1. Subjective, but I thought the characters in Kuzu were fairly well-grounded, at least the way they acted was logical and consistent with their character. This point on realism is really a non-starter with me. Who exactly gets to decide what is realistic? Have we all experienced everything we watch on screen to say that it's realistic? When it comes to romance in general, logic and reason are foreign domains, so it becomes even harder to say whether we would act the way the characters do. But even then, how far do we want to take realism? Art is as much a medium of imagination as it is a reflection of ourselves. I think it's foolish to expect art to be realistic, but maybe that's because I'm an idealist and I have no problem separating the two. 2. I this Kuzu was very much about love. In fact, it was about unrequited love. Most characters in Kuzu are in love with someone who isn't interested in them. I don't think any were really that scummy. They were all just trying to fill a void and find out what they really feel. And that's exactly my point with Mei. Her motivations aren't known to us. She's portrayed as a mysterious and shut-in cynic. She has slowly revealed her motivations to Yuzu, like for instance that she's really having an existential crisis about her future since her only role model is a mere shadow of himself and she is simply following the footsteps of a ghost. That kind of world-shattering realization is fundamental to who Mei is and why she does what she does. I agree that Mei is confusing, but I think that's the point and I really think that her actions will become clearer as the anime goes on. 3. I mean, I'm not really sure what you mean by a yuri anime attempting plot. That is literally what comes wholesale with an anime unless you're talking some real slice of life stuff. In your default assumption that yuri anime is just a string of kissing and sex unless someone tags a plot to it? It's based on a manga and unless I'm missing something, the manga also has a plot. I think the plot of Citrus is fine. It's similar to other lesbian fiction I've read and it's by no means a bad plot. The yuri scenes are also not bad. In my opinion, what makes kissing and romantic scenes so great is the context and build-up to them. Without build-up, it falls flat. It's basically just porn at that point. 4. I don't see why an arc being a plot device is a bad thing so long as the arc itself has a good narrative structure itself and ties back into the bigger plot. One of my favourite anime series of all time, Clannad, has plenty of such arcs. While most of the characters in these arcs do make returns from time to time, not all do, and ultimately, they help the main plot. While I don't think the arcs in Citrus are interesting or strong enough to stand alone on their own, unlike in Clannad, I think they're fine as supporting arcs to the main plot. You also have to consider that had Citrus been double the length, each of these arcs would have probably been given more attention, thus making it more compelling on it's own, perhaps. At the end of the day, as long as the narrative holds up logically, which I think it does, I'm fine with how the side characters in Citrus have been treated. As I've said before Matsuri is the only one I dislike so far because she has the potential to be a really weak and shitty character that actually feels like a plot device. Her timing, character, and motivation are far too convenient as a roadblock to the romance between Mei and Yuzu, and if Matsuri isn't given proper motivations, she will fall flat. |
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| @Saucy Sounds to me you just need Blue is the Warmest Color in your life. Or at the very least Octave as media that genuinely explores a lesbian relationship without pulling any punches or romanticizes it to high heaven and back. You're also being too defensive over my points. They aren't meant as criticism, but personal observation. Feel free to dismiss them as my own subjectivity, but I can assure you that Citrus won't really provide the depth you are looking for. The validation, sure, but emotional depth and Mei's psyche, not really. |
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| @Saucy 1. Of course it's subjective! That's the whole point of a discussion :) Consistent, yes. Logical... well almost all their bad ending suggests otherwise. I could see how various characters within Kuzu no Honkai could be considered well-grounded, but having all of them together in one cast defeats the purpose of them being screwed up in the first place. The whole point of having messed up people in for them to keep up their appearance, this way you have something to root for (whether it be them getting caught or them getting exposed). Here everyone's just kinda ok with being cheated on or trying to pull the next manipulative bitch move. I'm just here watching the character's become more and more blatant in their scum behaviour with no social consequences, then on the side note it's also revealed the lesbian girl, who has an unrequited love interest in the main female character, also has a cousin who has a screwed up incestuous interest for her. Where's the bottom line in all of this? Well I'm not saying that realism is something you have to value. It's just that having a full cast of stereotypical archetypes as characters is about as realistic as having an entire cast of messed up individuals. Same possibly realistic traits you can find in real people, but exaggerated beyond belief. 2. Well if you word it that way, it works too. 3. Of course there are linking sequences between the highlight events of yuri kissing. You get what I mean when I meant that an anime doesn't "attempt plot". A slapstick comedy anime doesn't attempt plot, but it isn't just giving context and delivering the punchline over and over, there's some background to the character and a little more is revealed over time. 4. Being a plot device isn't a bad thing, plot device is a neutral term that means a method or moving the plot forward. The problem is when it feels contrived, as it does feel in Citrus. Perhaps it'll feel less contrived when padded out with other sub-plots if it had a longer run time, but we watch what's in front of us and not think about the "maybes". Besides, having more events won't do much in helping the multiple incredibly convenient (and somewhat illogical) moments that includes Yuzu breaking into Mei's house to just happen to find him collapsed to the ground. |
| I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
T3hSource said: @Saucy Sounds to me you just need Blue is the Warmest Color in your life. Or at the very least Octave as media that genuinely explores a lesbian relationship without pulling any punches or romanticizes it to high heaven and back. You're also being too defensive over my points. They aren't meant as criticism, but personal observation. Feel free to dismiss them as my own subjectivity, but I can assure you that Citrus won't really provide the depth you are looking for. The validation, sure, but emotional depth and Mei's psyche, not really. I don't want to dismiss them as your own subjectivity. If we all do that, then what's the point of even talking about these things? You could just say, "well, that's like, your opinion, man...." This whole idea that people's opinions are just opinions is absurd. Obviously it's subjective, but people often treat it as factual because they have reasons for believing what they believe. If it's truly subjective, then there isn't really any rhyme or reason to it. I'm just interested in the reasons for why people think what they think. I don't get why people get offended when I press them to explain why they hold certain opinions and then recoil by saying, well it's just my opinion. Sure, but I think if you're going to put your opinion out there, you should be ready to have it challenged. BurningSpirit said: @Saucy 1. Of course it's subjective! That's the whole point of a discussion :) Consistent, yes. Logical... well almost all their bad ending suggests otherwise. I could see how various characters within Kuzu no Honkai could be considered well-grounded, but having all of them together in one cast defeats the purpose of them being screwed up in the first place. The whole point of having messed up people in for them to keep up their appearance, this way you have something to root for (whether it be them getting caught or them getting exposed). Here everyone's just kinda ok with being cheated on or trying to pull the next manipulative bitch move. I'm just here watching the character's become more and more blatant in their scum behaviour with no social consequences, then on the side note it's also revealed the lesbian girl, who has an unrequited love interest in the main female character, also has a cousin who has a screwed up incestuous interest for her. Where's the bottom line in all of this? Well I'm not saying that realism is something you have to value. It's just that having a full cast of stereotypical archetypes as characters is about as realistic as having an entire cast of messed up individuals. Same possibly realistic traits you can find in real people, but exaggerated beyond belief. 2. Well if you word it that way, it works too. 3. Of course there are linking sequences between the highlight events of yuri kissing. You get what I mean when I meant that an anime doesn't "attempt plot". A slapstick comedy anime doesn't attempt plot, but it isn't just giving context and delivering the punchline over and over, there's some background to the character and a little more is revealed over time. 4. Being a plot device isn't a bad thing, plot device is a neutral term that means a method or moving the plot forward. The problem is when it feels contrived, as it does feel in Citrus. Perhaps it'll feel less contrived when padded out with other sub-plots if it had a longer run time, but we watch what's in front of us and not think about the "maybes". Besides, having more events won't do much in helping the multiple incredibly convenient (and somewhat illogical) moments that includes Yuzu breaking into Mei's house to just happen to find him collapsed to the ground. 1. I don't want to quibble over pretty things, but I don't the whole point of a discussion is that it's subjective. You can have discussions about objective things. It's incredibly logical the way Kuzu unravels. I don't recall the details of all of the character arcs, but take Hanabi and Ecchan for example. It was abundantly clear from the beginning that they wouldn't end up together and that it would ruin their friendship, but Ecchan didn't care. She fell weak to her passion and instant gratification. Hanabi was scared of losing one of the closest people in her life, which Ecchan knew and exploited. Then she ultimately paid the price for it. They both knew they couldn't go back to the way things were because their feelings were out in the open. Other characters had similar problems. The whole point of Kuzu is to explore unrequited love and the dark side of romance. It could be effective to contrast it with a pairing that portrays a typical romance, but not necessary. There was really only one actually scummy character in Kuzu and that was the female teacher who went after Hanabi's crush. I don't know why having a cast of these people together would defeat the purpose of them being "screwed up." Sure, we're meant to root for some of them, but it was clear to me that none of their romances would be resolved because they were all built upon faulty foundations, which was exactly the point. The only one who really struggled to find herself was Hanabi. I think Kuzu does what it wanted to do really well. It shows that love and romance aren't always worth their weight in gold. Love is the most common denominator in human culture. We write songs, movies, books, art, etc all about love. Here is Kuzu coming out and saying, well, being in love kind of sucks sometimes, sucks a lot. Even sex, while fun, isn't always satisfying. Now sure, many movies portray an unrequited love, but most have happy endings. Kuzu doesn't, which is why I thought it was really well done. Not only did it not have a happy ending, the ending was perfectly set up almost from the beginning. Few films or series have the balls to do this because they know that people don't like unhappy endings. And again, most people, especially teens who haven't sexually been with anyone might think that kissing and sex are best things in the world, but here Kuzu is showing that no, that's not always the case. 3. Well then I really don't know what you mean. A yuri anime that doesn't attempt plot is Sakura Trick. ST is purely about setting up different situations for why these girls would kiss. There is obviously continuity and some character development, but not much changes between first and last episodes. Citrus is far more developed. Even between episodes 1-7, we see both Mei and Yuzu go through some changes. They don't need to change drastically, in fact, I think that would be too unbelievable. Maybe it's not the most compelling and amazing storytelling, but for the story it's trying to tell, I think it's doing some competently if you consider the kinds of characters it has. Maybe this is where your storytelling philosophy diverges, but I think character should drive plot, not the other way around. So, essentially, you could write a story by pulling random characters out of a hat so long as you understand their motivations and personalities, and as long as you logically develop the cause and effect chains they produce, which means introducing as little deus-ex machina as humanly possible, the narrative should be strong. Being a romance story, the majority of your conflict and character exploration should be in the feelings of each character. The reason I find Citrus compelling is because both characters have fairly clear personality differences, but we only know how one of them feels. So much of the attention should be focused on discovering what drives Mei, what makes her act the way she does. I think this aspect has been explored well so far. You want to gradually peel back the layers, especially with someone as guarded as she is. We found out she wants a family and then we also found out she has modelled her life after her father, which left her feeling completely lost when he left. All of these things add up to explain why she's lashing out and why she's so cold. This is why I completely disagree that Citrus doesn't attempt plot. It's insulting to say that in the face of all the character development, especially in only 7 episodes. It's not like there isn't anything to talk about when it comes to the plot, so I'm utterly confused as to why you would say that. 4. If you feel some moments are contrived, fair enough. I don't think it's really that much of a problem. I never found myself feeling like things were happening at random. Sure, some things felt contrived like Yuzu finding Mei grandfather, but her breaking in isn't that unbelievable. I never understood the criticism of any film or series based on things being "convenient." Plenty of real life stories have convenient chains on events that would also sound unbelievable. As long as there is a cause and effect, I think it's fine. |
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| @Saucy 1. Well yeah, Ecchan's arc was probably the most decent one. They could have spent more time on it and perhaps removed her cousin who just felt extra. It was incredibly logical the way it unravelled in a sense that the character's actions led to those consequences. But it never once did their twisted sense of love felt like anything more than an illogical obsession with grappling the short term pleasures ahead of them. I'd be inclined to agree that Kuzu no Honkai achieved what it set out to achieve, but that was done after the first handful of episodes. And within these few episodes, I'd agree there was no need for normal characters. But the later half went more from grey zone to just blatantly wrong like the dude exploiting the feelings of his childhood friend or the girl trying so desperately to cheat at the karaoke... and both of them are mutually OK with it. This felt like there was no bottom line and where it sorely lacks normal characters, who will make the 2 main characters suffer social consequences for their actions. 3. Like I said in my previous 2 post, Citrus DOES attempt plot. Not once did I say it didn't. Just saying the plot isn't very good, despite spending so much time on it. Perhaps this is where our ideals in storytelling diverges. Though if you are saying Saucy said: I'm saying I'll be quite bothered by it.you could write a story by pulling random characters out of a hat so long as you understand their motivations and personalities, and as long as you logically develop the cause and effect chains they produce, which means introducing as little deus-ex machina as humanly possible, the narrative should be strong. |
| I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
| THIS ANIME GAY LOL |
| RRRRRRRRRR |
BurningSpirit said: @Saucy 1. Well yeah, Ecchan's arc was probably the most decent one. They could have spent more time on it and perhaps removed her cousin who just felt extra. It was incredibly logical the way it unravelled in a sense that the character's actions led to those consequences. But it never once did their twisted sense of love felt like anything more than an illogical obsession with grappling the short term pleasures ahead of them. I'd be inclined to agree that Kuzu no Honkai achieved what it set out to achieve, but that was done after the first handful of episodes. And within these few episodes, I'd agree there was no need for normal characters. But the later half went more from grey zone to just blatantly wrong like the dude exploiting the feelings of his childhood friend or the girl trying so desperately to cheat at the karaoke... and both of them are mutually OK with it. This felt like there was no bottom line and where it sorely lacks normal characters, who will make the 2 main characters suffer social consequences for their actions. 3. Like I said in my previous 2 post, Citrus DOES attempt plot. Not once did I say it didn't. Just saying the plot isn't very good, despite spending so much time on it. Perhaps this is where our ideals in storytelling diverges. Though if you are saying Saucy said: I'm saying I'll be quite bothered by it.you could write a story by pulling random characters out of a hat so long as you understand their motivations and personalities, and as long as you logically develop the cause and effect chains they produce, which means introducing as little deus-ex machina as humanly possible, the narrative should be strong. But that's the thing, love is illogical. There isn't really a good way to do love stories if you're looking for a logical cause and effect chain like a detective novel. Love is fairly random and so there's not much to criticize when it comes to why someone falls in love. There can be character elements which inform how a character views love, like for instance, in Citrus, Yuzu is a very romantic girl, so it makes sense that she would fall in love at first sight and be weak to flirtation. Mei, on the other hand, is logical and cynical, so it makes more sense for her to be reluctant to let people into her life, which means they have to prove their worth to her. As long as the romance fits the characters, it's fine. I think it's set up really well in Kuzu and I don't see why there is a need to have normal characters of consequences. These people are already facing consequences, it's not about social ridicule, it's about happiness. Most characters in Kuzu are unhappy and they remain unhappy. Some due to being terrible human beings, and some due to getting lost in what it means to love and be loved. If you think the main characters of Kuzu didn't suffer consequences, I'm not sure what you were hoping for exactly. They're all freaking depressed and unhappy, like what more do you want. Citrus does "attempt" plot, which in my opinion is done fairly well, but I guess that's where I can't hope to convince you, so fair enough. |
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