"Oshi no Ko" Chapter 166 Discussion

Animanga fans these days are hilarious

There are so many people crying and bitching because a series that was always about tragedy and lies ended in tragedy and lies lol. Everyone and everything doesn't always get a happy ending people

The themes are in tact and every character realistically and narratively truthfully ended up how they should end up.

Get a grip lol

Why exactly do people dislike this ending? Regardless of questionable story beats previous, this to me is basically a perfect wrap up for what was set up and echoes the themes of the story that are highlighted early on. I feel like it was never going to be anything but this. I think it works well and is one of the better recent manga ending IMO.

@unnamedhuman Everything is so half-assed and obviously rushed. The biggest problem with this ending is Aqua's decision to kill himself. Ruby's career as an idol will be over once she gets too old and she'll be alone for the rest of her life, which means Aqua killing himself was unneeded as Aqua or someone else could've easily killed Hikaru himself without having to kill himself. I personally think Ichigo should've been the one to kill him as revenge for him killing Ai. Hikaru was also a terribly written villain because of how many plot twists there were around his character, which were unncessary. Kana is a joke of a character and served no purpose in this story. Ruby gets over Aqua's death without showing how she got over it. Crow girl is useless. Every character is damaged mentally because of Aqua's idiotic decision, which makes this ending unsatisfying because it was easily preventable with a little bit of brain power. How everyone heard of Aqua's death makes no sense since police always report the death of a family member to the family before showing it on the news. Too many unneeded plot twists which basically wasted time for nothing. A lot of story elements were unused and thrown away because of Aqua dying. This ending may cover the story beats but that doesn't mean it does it effectively. I think this ending could've been so much better if we got a few more chapters to see how the characters moved on from Aqua's death, but unfortunately it ended too quickly. The idea itself makes sense for the story, but it could've been written so much better than what we got. I'm glad you liked the ending though.

@supersmash1580

I think the story as a whole had plenty of things I think weren't particularly well done. But to say it was rushed is not very fair. Whenever a popular manga ends people always say this. But you can drag things on for as long as you want or end it even quicker. After a story ends people will never think it was enough initially. However the story has set up plenty of context and character relations that indirectly explain what would happen afterwards and I think we are shown more than enough. Aqua and Ruby are their own people and the whole point was to let go of past burdens. When people you care about die, you carry it with you and go on with your life. It is an echo of the themes seen in the first few arcs of the story. Aqua was ultimately unable to let go and thus choose to end things this way, to make sure Ruby could. The reason Aqua decided to do things the way he did was to shift sentiment in his favor as was clearly explained. Was this the only way to do such a thing? Who knows, but it is not our story to tell. There are always multiple solutions to a problem.

I personally think that the negative reaction to the ending (both this manga and other big name manga that ended in the last few years) mainly stems from the subversion of expectations. People did not like that the story moved on from Aqua dying because to us he is the focal point. But I believe this expectation is wrong in the first place and this is where the disconnect comes from. I am not saying that the ending cannot be criticised. But I am saying that many of the criticism are not correct/unfair. I think it is much more relevant to critique the story as a whole. I think for example that the way the story tried to interweave shounen elements with the showbizz mystery thing was addictive but quite jarring and made for an overall pretty messy narrative. It was entirely reliant on the characters being interesting and the reader wanting to see more of the characters. I do think the story could have benefitted from more in between periods. But having said that it does rely on this fast pacing and narrative structure to keep you engaged so it is a bit of a double edged sword. I think the strongest parts of this story are the way certain elements of the entertainment industry are explored, particularly how certain characters thrive and suffer from it. I think this part was made really accesible and could hit surprisingly hard.

@unnamedhuman The main reason why I say it feels rushed is Ruby's reaction to Aqua's death. We've seen previously in the story just how much the death of someone close to her has effected her mentally, I mean we got an entire arc that centered around Ruby that literally shows how she reacted to Gorou's death, that being pure revenge on his killer. Even earlier in the story, Ruby had to get therapy for years because of Ai's death, so to me it just doesn't make sense that she would just get over Aqua's death so easily. It's not that the story had to be dragged out further, all the story needed was a chapter or two to at least show HOW Ruby got over Aqua's death so quickly, because we've seen in the story that Ruby doesn't get over the death of someone she cares about so easily. You could say "she's just bottling up her emotions and moves on" but that just doesn't seem realistic to me when we're talking about Ruby's character specifically, because of what we've seen previously in the story. Remember, Ruby has lost literally everyone important to her, her parents abandoned her, Ai died, Gorou died, and now Aqua died. Every time she has been broken or changed negatively in some sort of way. So you're telling me after the most important person to her dies she just gets over it immediately? I just don't buy it. And since Aqua didn't leave a not or anything, she could easily think Hikaru either tried to kill Aqua or Aqua decided to abandon her and all of the friends he's made completely. Aqua could have easily just stabbed himself in a non-lethal area and the crime scene would still be the same as when he stabbed a vital organ, and he probably could've survived. The whole thing just feels needless, and so easily preventable that even a middle schooler could come up with a better plan than a certified doctor and 40-year-old, that's why a lot of people hate it. I'll reference a post that sums it up pretty well, "this ending is like the Bad End one gets after picking the wrong choice in a visual novel."

Also, if the whole point of the story was to let go of past burdens then why didn't the story do that initially with Hikaru's character? Why didn't Akasaka make Hikaru a much more tragic villain instead of just a psychopath? That would have made so much more sense with your interpretation of the stories' message, and both Aqua and Ruby can also let go of their past burdens with their revenge toward Hikaru. But unfortunately, Akasaka decided to go against that and just make him another cliche psychopathic killer. My take on this ending was "don't learn anything for your parents and repeat the cycle of lies," since that's exactly how Ruby ended up. Ruby's character at the beginning was centered around the fact that she didn't want to lie, and now that whole character aspect is completely shattered because she ends up just like Ai and will probably end up dead just like her anyway, whether she kills herself after her idol career and can no longer bottle up her emotions, or if a fan kills her just like Ai. Why was the story centered around Aqua growing and starting to appreciate the new life that he has? Why did the story show us how Aqua reacted after he learned that revenge was no longer needed if he just kills himself without us seeing that come to fruition? Why did Aqua decide to throw away his life when he was talking about all of the things he wanted to do if he just says "fuck it" and kills himself anyway? Why does Kana exist at all? What use was Crow Girl in this entire story? What was the point of Ai telling Aqua and Ruby to help Hikaru if Hikaru was just a scumbag? Why does Aqua regret his decision right when he's about to die when he has his entire life to think about how to kill Hikaru? I personally don't mind that Aqua died, but it just goes about it stupidly and has to pull a lot of character strings to try and make it understandable, which unfortunately it isn't. It's kind of ironic that around the community Code Geass has one of the best endings in all of anime and it does almost the exact same thing as Oshi no Ko does, but it does it so much better and it's so much more realistically understandable. I do agree that all the recent manga endings have to do with a subversion of expectations, which makes sense because if a manga doesn't subvert expectations correctly, then the community obviously won't like it. I just think the ending could've been handled SO much better than what we got, and that's why it's disappointing that we ended like this. Obviously it's not my nor anyone else's story to tell, but it's just unfortunate for a manga as good as this to fall completely flat in the end.

I agree on your point about the strong points of the story being the characters and how they interact with the entertainment industry, which is why a lot of people didn't like this ending because the story centered around the characters. What do I mean by this? The fact that almost every character at the end of the story is broken, and the reason is entirely preventable because of Aqua's idiotic plan to kill himself. I'm not saying the story should've ended happily, I'm saying Aqua should have had a more believable plan to kill Hikaru without dying with needless regrets and without breaking everyone around him for no reason. This ending just feels empty to me, it feels like it has no soul, and it feels like the author wanted to move on from this manga and get to his next work, which is why I think it's rushed.

@supersmash1580
A story doesn't just have 1 message. One of the themes of the story was to let go of past burdens and one more theme was the difference between the people that couldn't and the people that could. The story often made direct note of how Ruby and Aqua were fundamentally different in this regard. The ending never states Ruby got over it. The point is that she keeps going. She can, Aqua couldn't, Hikaru didn't want to. Making Hikaru a tragic villain is not very relevant as the point of the story wasn't to forgive and forget, but instead to allow yourself to move on. Two entirely different things. The story was focused on Ruby through the eyes of Aqua. It was never about Aqua which is the main difference in perspective I mentioned in my previous comment. I am not so sure what you mean when you say that Kana's character was pointless? You agree with my assessment of what I think the better elements of this story are, if so I fail to see how Kana is anything but a vital character. Like Ruby she is her own person and not defined by Aqua. It is just that she had a specific role to Aqua's character but this was not her only reason for being in the story. The reason why Aqua decided to throw it all away is as stated above.

I think your point on failing to subvert expectations in a way that makes sense is extremely relevant and interesting but maybe a bit misconstrued.
I like your code geass example as that story is an example of a story that leads you to conclude that the ending was the only possible answer. It allows for the audience to ignore any potential flaws with it as it masterfully closes of any doubts. It is a great example of a good ending. That being said I think that for a subversion of expectations it doesn't do much. The issue with subverting expectations in popular media formats in particular is that people don't just conclude things from your own story. They also take into account media and genre conventions. Like you comparing it to code geass so did many others. People read a story like Oshi no ko and they make automatic connections and assumptions because it is a manga, and not because of its own merits. In this sense a subversion of expectations can be done masterfully and make complete sense, and still be poorly received by the audience. And it is also entirely possible that an ending like this is poorly received with western audiences, but gets lauded with Eastern audiences due to cultural differences. The best endings subvert expectations in a way that makes you think afterwards it didn't, works by Satoshi Mizukami come to mind when considering the shounen genre. Some mangaka account for these media conventions and evolve with them, Tatsuki Fujimoto for example is very good at doing this. But many of the historically 'great' works are viewed as such because of their ability to stand on their own. Not because of mindblowing meta involved endings.

I think the issues people have with the Oshi no ko ending stem from issues with the story structurally earlier on, more so than the actual ending itself. So hence my stance that it is unfair to criticise it as is being done here currently.

@unnamedhuman Yes, the ending never states that Ruby never got over Aqua's death, it states that she continues to move forward despite it, but what I'm saying is to me that doesn't make sense for Ruby's character. Because of the examples I stated in my previous post, which you didn't bring up at all, I'll just copy and paste it here, "We've seen previously in the story just how much the death of someone close to her has affected her mentally, I mean we got an entire arc that centered around Ruby that literally shows how she reacted to Gorou's death, that being pure revenge on his killer. Even earlier in the story, Ruby had to get therapy for years because of Ai's death, so to me it just doesn't make sense that she would just get over Aqua's death so easily. It's not that the story had to be dragged out further, all the story needed was a chapter or two to at least show HOW Ruby got over Aqua's death so quickly, because we've seen in the story that Ruby doesn't get over the death of someone she cares about so easily. You could say "she's just bottling up her emotions and moves on" but that just doesn't seem realistic to me when we're talking about Ruby's character specifically, because of what we've seen previously in the story. Remember, Ruby has lost literally everyone important to her, her parents abandoned her, Ai died, Gorou died, and now Aqua died. Every time she has been broken or changed negatively in some sort of way. So, you're telling me after the most important person to her dies she just gets over it immediately? I just don't buy it." I would be perfectly fine with Ruby gritting her teeth and moving through the pain as she does in this ending, but as we've seen her reaction to each death that she encounters this reaction makes no sense to me. To me, it looks like you're overlooking aspects of Ruby's character that was shown previously in the story, and just saying "she moves on" without any meaning as to why she finds the strength to move on. Aqua is the most important person to Ruby in the entire story, so his death should've done the most damage to her. If I was in Ruby's shoes, I would look at Aqua's death and wonder why he decided to kill himself and leave me behind without so much of a word, and for me personally, that would be a heavy blow to take. If Aqua was a static character for the whole story, then this would make much more sense, but the story has shown how much he's changed as the story progresses and how he's begun to care about his life compared to when he began. I don't have a problem with your interpretation of the story as a whole, all I'm saying is it should've made more sense for the main characters as they progressed and grew in the story. There should've been more time to explain how Ruby found the strength to keep going despite everyone around her dying and abandoning her.

I don't agree with your point that the story was focused on Ruby through the eyes of Aqua. Ruby for the majority of the beginning and the end of the story was sidelined entirely for other characters like Akane and Kana, specifically Akane. That wouldn't be a problem if Ruby was still the focal point of the story, but she isn't, Aqua is. She only starts to get legitimate character development when she starts focusing on revenge. Then once that arc is over and the story goes full incest and she eventually just gets sidelined again for the majority of the final arc, since the final arc is mainly focused on Ai and Hikaru's backstory, as well as Aqua and Hikaru's eventual meeting and death. Also, could you elaborate more when you said the story was never about Aqua? For a large portion of the story Ruby isn't even one of the main characters. For some arcs she doesn't show up much at all, and it isn't specifically shown that the story is focused on Ruby through the eyes of Aqua for almost the entirety of it. the Tokyo Blade arc being the best example. If the story isn't even about Aqua, then why does Ruby not have a larger presence in the story as a whole? The beginning arc centers around the entertainment industry and Aqua isn't even concerned with Ruby for the most part, he's just focused on revenge for almost the entirety of the story. Like I said earlier, Akane and Kana felt more like the main characters compared to Ruby, especially Akane.

I should've elaborated more when I say the character interactions were the better part of the story, the reason why I say Kana as a character seems pointless is the needless buildup of romance between the two of them, in fact the whole buildup of Aqua's relationship with Kana is useless in the end if he kills himself. I liked Kana's character at first because it showed the effects of child actors in the industry, but after that she was just sidelined as a romantic love interest and rival to Akane. She didn't do anything in the final arc of the story nor many of the arcs for that matter, she did have good character moments but her purpose as a character ultimately wasn't needed in my opinion, besides to show a single aspect of the idol industry that could've been done for any one-off character. You didn't bring up Crow Girl at all either. She was just used as a unnecessary plot device who served no purpose besides reincarnating Aqua and Ruby, if she wasn't a character in the story and just a concept then nothing would change.

Like you said in your post, the story doesn't just have 1 message, and to me, the message is to learn nothing from your parents and repeat the cycle of lies. That's exactly how Ruby ended up, Aqua learned nothing from everyone around him even though we were shown that he started to change, every other character is broken from Aqua's decision that could've easily been prevented with a little brain power and didn't align with his growing character development. Like I said in my previous post, "the whole thing just feels needless, and so easily preventable that even a middle schooler could come up with a better plan than a certified doctor and 40-year-old, that's why a lot of people hate it." Yes it fits the dark narrative, yes it might fit your interpretation of the story, but because of the way the characters were developed as the story progressed, this ending doesn't make sense on a basis of shown and established character traits, intellect, and development. I do find your take on the ending interesting though, and I'll be honest it wasn't something that I initially considered.

I personally didn't have a problem with the structure of Oshi no Ko in the beginning, I thought it had a great start and an interesting premise but just couldn't stick the landing as the story progressed, if anything this final arc was where I find all of the main issues I have about the story just because of how everything progressed and finished. The consensus of the community is that the ending is bad, you can even see it in this discussion page with the 5 star rating being much less than the 1 star, and unless the anime changes some aspects of it or does a much better job than the manga, then I don't see the opinion of the ending changing anytime soon. My opinion probably won't change either unless I see otherwise or hear a more believable argument.

My god I wrote a lot.

@supersmash1580

I typed out a whole reply that got deleted which is annoying, here is a bit of an abridged version......

I disagree with how you view the story but I can see where you are coming from for sure. I did not react to any of your story specific examples as I think at that point you start arguing semantics with people. I don't think your analysis of the way this story portrays Ruby and the general idea of moving on is correct, but I have already explained my view on this previous, hence the lack of a direct reply. I agree that some of the elements suffered from a lack of attention and room to breath. Especially the relationship between Aqua and Ruby in context of their reincarnation suffered from this. I could personally see what the idea was, but to say it was fully developed would be a stretch and a half. I don't think the point was to do an incest subplot, I think the point was to show the weak and vulnerable mental state of Ruby at that point. Hence why I also think the ending makes sense as we are shown time and time again that while Ruby may appear unstable, she actually isn't, or atleast is able to pull through, while the more stable seeming people like Aqua, actually are pretty unstable. It was also meant as a way to introduce the discomfort of Aqua into the story to better set up the ending, but at that point I think the story had gone too far into the movie production to give this the time it needed.

While that last part is obviously my own interpretation, it highlights my point of the story suffering from too many elements clashing/misdirection. This is a problem I think many long running manga have, both good, bad and mediocre. And how much people care usually tends to depend on the type of story something is. I think that 20th century boys for example does this a lot. The core of that story is great and really well done. But there are quite a few elements that are not just left for the reader to figure out, but also just not developed. It is well known that the mangaka does not plan out his mysteries that far ahead so there is always plenty of foreshadowing that kinda goes nowhere. This doesn't mean the story is bad though and I think the same argument can be applied here. I think the general ideas and highlights of oshi no ko still work and shine through. And I think those elements allow for the ending to make sense. Despite the fact the set up could have been clearer.