| There's been some discussion in the club comments about what to include in the relations. In the history of the club there's a thread where people expressed their uncertainty regarding how much stop-motion is required, so that may still be a concern. Another issue is that it's not always self-evident what technique was used or when exactly stop-motion was a major part of the process. For example, it was pointed out that Geudaelaseo isn't stop motion. On a quick glance it does have a similar appearance. Nowadays CGI is good enough now to imitate very well real textures, but that just looks too complex, and also is missing something: Especially in older animation stop motion has imprecision, the animation isn't quite smooth and there are little jumps here and there. Decades ago smoothness meant that a sequence was probably done live, now it can also mean it's done by computer. However, to make it more complicated, camera techniques and puppet use has also developed so that stop motion can be pretty smooth even with the camera moving, since the rig can be programmed precisely. Another way to see this is that earlier complex sequences could be made in 2d animation, and 3d animation meant manipulating puppets, cutouts, something made as objects rather than drawings. With the evolution of computer animation they've now reached a point where realistic-looking textures, lighting, shadows etc. can be used on animated 3d objects. There is a certain charm in how stop-motion puppets move. Right now CGI can produce animation that not only looks realistic, but is often more complex simply because there's a limit to how intricately a human hand can move a tiny puppet. We'll have to see how things develop, but it's entirely possible that in the near future someone will produce a film that looks like classical stop-motion, but was done entirely with CGI. Also, I remember watching some Maya Yonesho videos like Don't You Wish You Were Here and wondering about the technique. The low picture quality in the clip I saw makes it look like even the notebooks aren't real. If stop motion is done with drawings, eventually that's just ordinary animation, so there's a gray area somewhere. And of course MAL doesn't accept stop motion with live actors now. I've added that anime to relations, but I'd say that is in the area where stop motion starts to become just animation. Silhouette animations can also be pretty smooth, even when old. I've added, for example, The Phantom Ship from 1956. The director Noburou Oofuji was a pioneer in the technique, and even now it's hard to tell how some sequences were done. Silhouettes often used stop motion, but they can be moved live as well, and now there's CGI silhouettes. So silhouettes don't necessarily mean stop-motion. I've added some of his works for now even though I'm not sure I can recognize from silhouettes the technique used. |
| An article on the series Oni: Thunder God's Tale: https://megalis.com/oni/ This series (available on Netflix, perhaps elsewhere) is interesting because the studio worked with dwarf, a prominent stop-motion studio with the intention of creating a work that mixes CGI and stop-motion. In the end they decided to go full CGI with the characters, only using the miniature set but retaining the original look. So this anime is a good example of how a CGI project can be influenced by stop-motion and how closely they could reproduce the look in 2022. |
| Had a little discussion with @IridescentJaune about a couple of music videos, so I'm copying here a comment I made. This case is a good example of how nowadays it's difficult to tell, especially with cutouts, what is stop-motion. The background here is that I added Heart Beat 2023 but not Gunjou to our list, which have a lot of same people involved. It is a tough call. Feorg said: Well regarding Gunjou, all the characters have little sticks attached to their moving parts, going to the edge of the screen, or we see only a part of the cutout. There are moving cars etc, but with every object that doesn't have a visible stick attached the movement is pretty straight, with no sudden changes in direction. So because moving things live is easier, if the video looks like it can be done without stop-motion, I assume they've chosen the simpler way. In Heart Beat there are no visible strings, and some scenes have so many moving parts that I suspect stop-motion was involved. But you're right, it's getting hard to tell, especially with cutouts, since they can be moved live or the effect can be digitally done with a very realistic feel. With cutouts it's also possible to make pretty complex designs where a lot of tiny parts move when you pull just one part. So I called one video stop-motion, the other one not, but if I'm mistaken, I'd guess that neither of them are rather than both. Gunjou: Heart Beat: |
Reply to Feorg
Had a little discussion with @IridescentJaune about a couple of music videos, so I'm copying here a comment I made. This case is a good example of how nowadays it's difficult to tell, especially with cutouts, what is stop-motion. The background here is that I added Heart Beat 2023 but not Gunjou to our list, which have a lot of same people involved. It is a tough call.
Gunjou:
Heart Beat:
Feorg said:
Well regarding Gunjou, all the characters have little sticks attached to their moving parts, going to the edge of the screen, or we see only a part of the cutout. There are moving cars etc, but with every object that doesn't have a visible stick attached the movement is pretty straight, with no sudden changes in direction. So because moving things live is easier, if the video looks like it can be done without stop-motion, I assume they've chosen the simpler way.
In Heart Beat there are no visible strings, and some scenes have so many moving parts that I suspect stop-motion was involved. But you're right, it's getting hard to tell, especially with cutouts, since they can be moved live or the effect can be digitally done with a very realistic feel. With cutouts it's also possible to make pretty complex designs where a lot of tiny parts move when you pull just one part.
So I called one video stop-motion, the other one not, but if I'm mistaken, I'd guess that neither of them are rather than both.
Well regarding Gunjou, all the characters have little sticks attached to their moving parts, going to the edge of the screen, or we see only a part of the cutout. There are moving cars etc, but with every object that doesn't have a visible stick attached the movement is pretty straight, with no sudden changes in direction. So because moving things live is easier, if the video looks like it can be done without stop-motion, I assume they've chosen the simpler way.
In Heart Beat there are no visible strings, and some scenes have so many moving parts that I suspect stop-motion was involved. But you're right, it's getting hard to tell, especially with cutouts, since they can be moved live or the effect can be digitally done with a very realistic feel. With cutouts it's also possible to make pretty complex designs where a lot of tiny parts move when you pull just one part.
So I called one video stop-motion, the other one not, but if I'm mistaken, I'd guess that neither of them are rather than both.
Gunjou:
Heart Beat:
| @Feorg I also moved my reply here... Hmm, so if we can prove that there's a segment/s of the MV with actual stop-motion then the MV can be added to the club? But then Taiyo Kikaku's official site doesn't really detail everything (like if they used stop-motion, etc.). Just the company's role in the production of their works. https://www.taiyokikaku.com/works/mv/heart-beat?en https://www.taiyokikaku.com/works/mv/yoasobi-blue?en This is the first time I checked their site and found that they've been involved in several titles that are already in the DB. But anime pages don't list them on the sidebars or staff tabs. https://www.taiyokikaku.com/en/ Wish there are some behind-the-scenes so we could confirm the techniques used. Dwarf has several BTS of their works. Maybe checking sites/blogs of artists/staff could give us some clue but that'd be tedious. |
| Haha I guess I'll move the following comment here as well, although the first two paragraphs are slightly off-topic: Feorg said: At least nowadays the artists give credit to the animation staff. With older music videos it's often impossible to know which studio was involved, not to mention the staff. And MAL pages often don't have the information either. I've submitted anime staff in the past, but those are more commonly rejected than new anime entries even if I link to an official site, so maybe they're pretty strict about such edits. In the time I've been adding new stuff to the club I've learned quite a bit about stop-motion simply because I've had to figure out how to tell apart clever live-action or digital cutout animation and stop-motion, and judge other types of borderline cases too. It's not always exact, but it's also fun to watch these videos while trying to understand how they did the effects. There's a certain sense of wonder in understanding the manual labour and clever setups, and maybe as a result I often score stop-motion 1 point higher than I would a traditional video. In Gunjou there's a particularly clever thing happening at 00:42-00:56, where several cutouts slot into place to form images, a city and a face. Since everything is coming from the edge of the screen, I believe it can be done manually with each part connected with strings to get into the right place, and the reason it looks like that is that they designed a system of cutouts that works together. Then it's possible to shoot the scene in one take instead of frame by frame. And they've included that scene several times in the video. There are limits to that technique, so if there were enough moving parts there would have to be some stop-motion adjustments. Looks very cool, whatever it is. |
| Here's an entry by dwarf that I didn't see as stop-motion on first viewing and until I saw the BTS. Monogatari no Aru Satou ็ฉ่ชใฎใใ็ ็ณ (sugar with a story) [16 Oct 2017 | 2:18] ใ็ฉ่ชใฎใใ็ ็ณใใกใคใญใณใฐๆ ๅ (“Sugar with a Story” making video) [12 Oct 2017 | 1:12] Source: Komaya Official YouTube Channel I was confused if this was really stop motion so I looked for some BTS and fortunately there's one in YT. Although, I'm still confused with this other entry which is included in https://myanimelist.net/stacks/47036: Weaving weaving --- dwarf I can't find a BTS. Oh, this one too: PLUG, THe NeW WORLD I feel like there are some stop-motion but very minimal. I didn't check the other videos on the ThePlanetZero official YT channel... Not all works by dwarf are stop-motion. But most of their works are stop-motion. |
| Thankfully dwarf uses #stopmotion hashtag on their youtube channel and their website also has a category, so we don't have to guess what's the case with Weaving. The staff also includes "Model fabrication" by Emu Fujita, suggesting it's a real model. Moreover, the light and the movement of the web look realistic in a way I haven't seen in CGI productions, and the spider's legs move so intricately that I don't think it can be done with strings. Plug, The New World is indeed more difficult, but it is listed on dwarf's homepage as a stop-motion work (details page). Not only are computer animations becoming more realistic, but in recent years I've also seen stop-motion where the light, especially when coloured, hitting a plastic or felt puppet looks somehow unreal. To me it looks like there's a significant amount of puppetry, especially the light in the beginning looks natural, but some scenes do look suspicious and I suspect there might be CGI in backgrounds and perhaps also puppets in the night scenes. Since dwarf lists it as stop-motion, I'll add it to the list. The style actually reminds me of the BTS (the band) music video Yet to Come which I was sure looked like CGI, but apparently it's been officially confirmed as stop-motion, and on closer look other objects besides the puppets look real. Maybe they used some filters to make the puppets look smoother, but the animation itself was done by hand. edit: also, Plug the New World was created by Tsuneo Gouda (the founder of dwarf), famous enough as a stop-motion animator to have a wikipedia page in English. He's created Komaneko movies as well as Domo-kun. So I think he has so much experience that he can create stop-motion that looks very smooth in a way that makes us question whether it can be real. |
FeorgSep 11, 2024 11:59 AM
| Alright. I shall check dwarf's hashtags on their videos as well as their site for their works more often. Yeah, they have the stop-motion tag on YT and on their site for Weaving. https://dw-f.jp/service/index.html?target=56 It's still a bit hard for me to see how they did the stop-motion for Weaving. I've rewatched it and focused more on the strings on the web instead of the spider... I can see how the web is stop-motion. But as for the spider, it still looks so much like CGI to me. I actually like the short and how it looks like Charlotte's Web. I wish they made a "making of" too. I wanna see how they animated the spider. I guess it's kinda similar to the sugar elephants in Monogatari no Aru Satou. The technique somewhat used, I mean. Ah! HAHA. I was hesitant to type BTS at first because I know someone would say "BTS" instead of behind-the-scenes. HAHAHA. Anyways, I suspected that Yet to Come video has some stop-motion so I checked their YT and found a behind-the-scenes which I also shared in the discussion before: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?goto=post&topicid=2105714&id=69522419 For PLUG, THe NeW WORLD, the 1:00-1:29 part looked like stop-motion to me but I wasn't sure about the rest of the video then. At least now, we've confirmed that it is indeed stop-motion because dwarf's hashtag and the creator listed on their site (https://dw-f.jp/service/index.html?target=69). Thanks! |
| To me it looks like a small hand puppet. There are a couple of scenes where we see the puppet from a distance which could have animation (and the credits do mention animation), but most of it looks like the hands, feet and mouth are moved by someone's fingers. Another difficult case is this: https://myanimelist.net/anime/34656/Ai_Uta__Since_2007 It's a good example of the kind of cutout animation that can be done nowadays easily with the computer with the effect similar to things being shot frame by frame, so it's difficult to tell how it was made. It's like paper dolls, and this kind of style has been used in visual novels as well. The background and character colors look digital to me so I'm guessing it was made with a computer.. |
| So https://www.taiyokikaku.com/works/web/ss_opantsu?en shouldn't be submitted? If that's the case then I shall cross it off the Taiyo Kikaku list. --- To me, the MV looked more CG. I didn't think of paper dolls. But since you've mentioned it yeah I kinda see the style. I feel like I've heard the song before. Edit: "The song was also used as the ending theme of the live-action adaptation of the manga Strobe Edge covered by Whiteeeen." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ai_Uta Oh. I might have heard it on Strobe Edge clips in YT before then. |
IridescentJauneSep 20, 2024 11:52 PM
| Are animations like this one accepted in the DB? https://tecarat.jp/works/arrows/ https://youtu.be/E2uImwoweyE?si=dbiUfqzhpTFyjoIM https://youtu.be/A-SnjNlFLWw?si=wlvEznwHiywPpcFY Or such are considered more as live-action? Still-motion? |
| I don't remember anything exactly like that, but if it were up to me, I'd accept it. The closest I can think of is episode 1 of Dungeon Meshi PVs, but even there episode 2 is traditional animation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqj8J9XrOR8 There's also a music video with moving food items and an interesting camera run. With object animation I suppose they always have a reason to reject it because there's no character creation (which abstract videos don't have either), but there are many such examples in the database already. There's pixilation too which isn't accepted anymore, but with the food items I'd call it stop-motion. The guidelines state: "Stop-motion using live actors or regular objects do not count since they lack character and background creation." I don't know how recent that rule is. It's possible it was added when pixilation was purged from the db, and whatever we find that breaks this rule is just things that were left there, and it might be that they won't accept new ones. I think it might be worth a try anyway. |
| I don’t think I’ll be submitting Opantsu and Arrows since I’m unsure about them… I asked about Arrows because it somewhat reminded me of a new episode (ep. 10) added in the Nissin Chikin Ramen CMs. It's mixed media (with more live-action + stop-motion for the vegetables and a bit of CG for Hiyoko). The technique used in Arrows is kinda similar to some parts of the stop-motion for the vegetables in the Nissin Chikin Ramen episode. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=2179642 Ah, that "character creation" rule… Noted. |
| https://myanimelist.net/anime/8644/Sylvanian_Families It's CG like the rest of the franchise (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ktFAW8Mymw) |
  |
Reply to Kwanthemaster
https://myanimelist.net/anime/8644/Sylvanian_Families
It's CG like the rest of the franchise (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ktFAW8Mymw)
It's CG like the rest of the franchise (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ktFAW8Mymw)
| @Kwanthemaster Good point, I'll remove it. I had marked it on the spreadsheet as a puppet show but gave no source, which means that it was already on our relations and I guessed the type based on the cover images (which might include toys). So it's a good example of how it might be difficult to recognize these things. I think the problem is partly that since it's based on actual toys, the models look pretty realistic, and of course it's easier to tell when you see things moving. It's pretty impressive how well they can model fluffy surfaces in CG already. |
FeorgOct 5, 2024 10:16 PM
| Is Don't Worry: Monotarinai Monogatari really a cutout animation? I saw it in Stop Motion Complete Collection 15 so I rewatched it. I somewhat see how it could be a cutout animation but I'm not really sure. It kinda feels like they made an attempt to make it look like cutout... |
Reply to IridescentJaune
Is Don't Worry: Monotarinai Monogatari really a cutout animation? I saw it in Stop Motion Complete Collection 15 so I rewatched it. I somewhat see how it could be a cutout animation but I'm not really sure. It kinda feels like they made an attempt to make it look like cutout...
| @IridescentJaune I recall having hard time deciding on that one. Sugimoto has made some other videos too which look like cutout animation, for example https://myanimelist.net/anime/38905/Xmas_Song https://myanimelist.net/anime/38906/Alice_in_Voodooland https://myanimelist.net/anime/38898/Yume_wo_Misete In the last one you can see someone's hands putting cutouts in place, so I think it's safe to say he does use the technique. There's also this video (not on MAL) which more clearly demonstrates how he uses a mixture of techniques including stop-motion, pixilation and computer graphics, which makes it difficult to categorize his style (though I would say this is mostly collage animation made with a computer): Sometimes it's clear that cutouts were used, but then again it's easy to make computer graphics look like it as well. In favour of it being cutout animation I think there's the watercolour appearance, the shadows and blurring of objects near the camera, and the unsteady movements like a lot of things were moved so much at a time that smoothness is lost. Against it being stop-motion there's the sequence near the beginning where the camera zooms out with more and more forest appearing. I recall that when I added the title I tried to find something about that, and came to the conclusion that it's possible. Unfortunately I don't remember more now. So basically I concluded that since Sugimoto uses stop-motion in some other works while adding effects with computer graphics, it's probable he's done the same here, even if I'm not 100% sure of it. |
Reply to Feorg
@IridescentJaune
I recall having hard time deciding on that one. Sugimoto has made some other videos too which look like cutout animation, for example
https://myanimelist.net/anime/38905/Xmas_Song
https://myanimelist.net/anime/38906/Alice_in_Voodooland
https://myanimelist.net/anime/38898/Yume_wo_Misete
In the last one you can see someone's hands putting cutouts in place, so I think it's safe to say he does use the technique.
There's also this video (not on MAL) which more clearly demonstrates how he uses a mixture of techniques including stop-motion, pixilation and computer graphics, which makes it difficult to categorize his style (though I would say this is mostly collage animation made with a computer):
Sometimes it's clear that cutouts were used, but then again it's easy to make computer graphics look like it as well. In favour of it being cutout animation I think there's the watercolour appearance, the shadows and blurring of objects near the camera, and the unsteady movements like a lot of things were moved so much at a time that smoothness is lost.
Against it being stop-motion there's the sequence near the beginning where the camera zooms out with more and more forest appearing. I recall that when I added the title I tried to find something about that, and came to the conclusion that it's possible. Unfortunately I don't remember more now.
So basically I concluded that since Sugimoto uses stop-motion in some other works while adding effects with computer graphics, it's probable he's done the same here, even if I'm not 100% sure of it.
I recall having hard time deciding on that one. Sugimoto has made some other videos too which look like cutout animation, for example
https://myanimelist.net/anime/38905/Xmas_Song
https://myanimelist.net/anime/38906/Alice_in_Voodooland
https://myanimelist.net/anime/38898/Yume_wo_Misete
In the last one you can see someone's hands putting cutouts in place, so I think it's safe to say he does use the technique.
There's also this video (not on MAL) which more clearly demonstrates how he uses a mixture of techniques including stop-motion, pixilation and computer graphics, which makes it difficult to categorize his style (though I would say this is mostly collage animation made with a computer):
Sometimes it's clear that cutouts were used, but then again it's easy to make computer graphics look like it as well. In favour of it being cutout animation I think there's the watercolour appearance, the shadows and blurring of objects near the camera, and the unsteady movements like a lot of things were moved so much at a time that smoothness is lost.
Against it being stop-motion there's the sequence near the beginning where the camera zooms out with more and more forest appearing. I recall that when I added the title I tried to find something about that, and came to the conclusion that it's possible. Unfortunately I don't remember more now.
So basically I concluded that since Sugimoto uses stop-motion in some other works while adding effects with computer graphics, it's probable he's done the same here, even if I'm not 100% sure of it.
| @Feorg Yeah, the forest... I wish his website had more info on his works than just images and links to the videos (I mean like with dwarf or even TECARAT, they indicate which technique/s they used—stop motion, 2D, etc.). Thanks for the links/recs. |
IridescentJauneNov 17, 2024 12:27 AM
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