Do these shows ever have a balanced couple?

Feb 5, 2022 10:19 PM

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mechian said:
With shoujo-ai shows, most of the time the girls are of similar stature. One might be more boyish or masculine in their personality but they're still girls.

The first thing I noticed from the poster art, I can already tell which one is the receiver. The redheaded guy is a hulk compared to the other one.

Maybe don't jump to conclusions before actually trying the series. Miyano himself refuses to accept being viewed as a girl or the receiver in the relationship and makes that clear early on

Feb 5, 2022 10:19 PM

#3

SFirebolt

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In given both of them are of the same height if that’s something you’re looking for. In Doukyuusei too as far as I remember.

Feb 5, 2022 11:15 PM

#4

SaaajE

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mechian said:
With shoujo-ai shows, most of the time the girls are of similar stature. One might be more boyish or masculine in their personality but they're still girls.

The first thing I noticed from the poster art, I can already tell which one is the receiver. The redheaded guy is a hulk compared to the other one.

Miyano is just shorter than Sasaki
His behavior is not like a girl at all , that's what I really like about him

Feb 6, 2022 1:08 AM

#5

MagicPolly

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Within the first 5 minutes of episode 1 Sasaki says Miyano looks feminine and he replies that he has a complex about that, jumping to conclusions is never good

Feb 6, 2022 1:29 AM

#6

mechian

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MagicPolly said:
Within the first 5 minutes of episode 1 Sasaki says Miyano looks feminine and he replies that he has a complex about that, jumping to conclusions is never good

Interesting, so the story is self-aware.

Feb 6, 2022 2:02 AM

#7

removed-user

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They're both behaving like boys, it's just that Miyano, the shorter one, is very pretty with a softer mannerism. Sasaki is also far from being very masculine, he's very kind and sweet regardless his appearance.
Regarding the position in bed, there isn't a clear indication yet about who will be top and bottom. Besides, in real life, the majority of the people are verse - even the ones that have a more permanent role.

Feb 6, 2022 6:16 AM

#8

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Miyano says he's not a uke in the manga and sasaki is happy to be whatever to please Miyano.

Feb 6, 2022 8:29 AM

#9

MK17_2

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Jan 2019

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The "balanced couple" caught my attention. It does often feel like (BL in general) even though there are technically both boys, the one always seems more feminine, as if to make it more acceptable and draw less attention from the fact that it's two boys in love.
Is it just me?
Like junjou romantica or its spin off - the world's greatest first love
Or this other one - the world's sexiest guy won't stop harassing me (something like that)
Or hitorma my hero (sorry something like that)
I've never got the sense that male couples are "balanced" both aren't equally masculine. I still feel like I'm watching a petite girl and guy just blushing and gushing. It's cute I'm not complaining. I like BL and read manga too but can't ignore that imbalance in male couples.
Sorry I don't mean this at all in a bad way. I do enjoy this anime. I just wonder if anyone else gets this same feeling with BL

Feb 6, 2022 2:07 PM

#10

Bixxbite

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MK17_2 said:
I've never got the sense that male couples are "balanced" both aren't equally masculine. I still feel like I'm watching a petite girl and guy just blushing and gushing. It's cute I'm not complaining. I like BL and read manga too but can't ignore that imbalance in male couples.

Yeah, your comment sums up my feelings pretty well..... I think it's kind of a fair to question this aspect of the story, cause it does still seem to somewhat regurgitate the tropes it's trying to subvert. Still very clear tall/short, masculine/feminine, pursuer/pursued dynamics regardless of how self-aware the story is in some aspects.

Eren_Cho said:
They're both behaving like boys, it's just that Miyano, the shorter one, is very pretty with a softer mannerism.

And it seems kind of weird to say that they both behave like boys, because I'm pretty sure teenage boys aren't a monolith xD
Miyano is still very clearly feminine, with him being coy and blushing and all. Even if he doesn't necessarily like being feminine, he isn't an actual person and the author very deliberately chose to make him short, petite and cute while making Sasaki tall, broad and flirty.

Either way, dismissing OP's question seems kind of counterproductive, because I kind of think they're onto something in a way (tho I'm an anime only watcher, so this whole thing is very much subject to change). I think it's still important to ask; does this anime use BL tropes and dynamics to actually subvert them or does it inadvertently buy into them?

Feb 6, 2022 2:50 PM

#11

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Bixxbite said:

MK17_2 said:
I've never got the sense that male couples are "balanced" both aren't equally masculine. I still feel like I'm watching a petite girl and guy just blushing and gushing. It's cute I'm not complaining. I like BL and read manga too but can't ignore that imbalance in male couples.

Yeah, your comment sums up my feelings pretty well..... I think it's kind of a fair to question this aspect of the story, cause it does still seem to somewhat regurgitate the tropes it's trying to subvert. Still very clear tall/short, masculine/feminine, pursuer/pursued dynamics regardless of how self-aware the story is in some aspects.

Eren_Cho said:
They're both behaving like boys, it's just that Miyano, the shorter one, is very pretty with a softer mannerism.

And it seems kind of weird to say that they both behave like boys, because I'm pretty sure teenage boys aren't a monolith xD
Miyano is still very clearly feminine, with him being coy and blushing and all. Even if he doesn't necessarily like being feminine, he isn't an actual person and the author very deliberately chose to make him short, petite and cute while making Sasaki tall, broad and flirty.

Either way, dismissing OP's question seems kind of counterproductive, because I kind of think they're onto something in a way (tho I'm an anime only watcher, so this whole thing is very much subject to change). I think it's still important to ask; does this anime use BL tropes and dynamics to actually subvert them or does it inadvertently buy into them?

I'm not sure what do you mean with "monolith" in this occasion (English is not my native language, I apologize for potential errors) but I consider them pretty normal for teenage boys. At least from my experience. You can find many common characteristics between the two genders in terms of personality and behavior.

Regarding your question and everything else, I find them very interesting. I didn't think that far. First of all, yes. I believe their body structures are designed to imply their dynamics, not necessarily in bed (that's totally different) but in their relationship in general. They both are kind of soft though, thank god toxic masculinity is absent. As for the subversion, the current events don't indicate significant changes from the already known archetypes. The thing that I'm pleasantly surprised is the grounded and healthy representation. I can't believe I'm saying this because it should be given, but yaoi and bl genres are messed up in many ways. I consider Sasaki and Miyano as an actual ordinary romance.

Feb 6, 2022 3:13 PM

#12

mechian

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Eren_Cho said:

Bixxbite said:

Yeah, your comment sums up my feelings pretty well..... I think it's kind of a fair to question this aspect of the story, cause it does still seem to somewhat regurgitate the tropes it's trying to subvert. Still very clear tall/short, masculine/feminine, pursuer/pursued dynamics regardless of how self-aware the story is in some aspects.

And it seems kind of weird to say that they both behave like boys, because I'm pretty sure teenage boys aren't a monolith xD
Miyano is still very clearly feminine, with him being coy and blushing and all. Even if he doesn't necessarily like being feminine, he isn't an actual person and the author very deliberately chose to make him short, petite and cute while making Sasaki tall, broad and flirty.

Either way, dismissing OP's question seems kind of counterproductive, because I kind of think they're onto something in a way (tho I'm an anime only watcher, so this whole thing is very much subject to change). I think it's still important to ask; does this anime use BL tropes and dynamics to actually subvert them or does it inadvertently buy into them?

I'm not sure what do you mean with "monolith" in this occasion (English is not my native language, I apologize for potential errors) but I consider them pretty normal for teenage boys. At least from my experience. You can find many common characteristics between the two genders in terms of personality and behavior.

Regarding your question and everything else, I find them very interesting. I didn't think that far. First of all, yes. I believe their body structures are designed to imply their dynamics, not necessarily in bed (that's totally different) but in their relationship in general. They both are kind of soft though, thank god toxic masculinity is absent. As for the subversion, the current events don't indicate significant changes from the already known archetypes. The thing that I'm pleasantly surprised is the grounded and healthy representation. I can't believe I'm saying this because it should be given, but yaoi and bl genres are messed up in many ways. I consider Sasaki and Miyano as an actual ordinary romance.

I'm not sure how long you've been watching anime to know about common design elements or tropes.

Take a look at their eyes.

Redhead has smaller, angular, sharper eyes. This is a typical design for male lead characters in shoujo. It's supposed to be give them a fierce look and make them look "hot" or a "bad boy". You can instantly tell by the art if it's a shoujo/josei/otoge type of material.

The other guy meanwhile has big round oval eyes typical of the female lead in shoujo. It makes them look "cute" and "innocent".

99% of shoujo is the contrast between the "bad boy" pursuing the "innocent girl".

If you put black hair in a skirt and gave him shoulder length hair, it is almost indistinguishable from a shoujo.

Feb 6, 2022 3:54 PM

#13

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mechian said:

Eren_Cho said:

I'm not sure what do you mean with "monolith" in this occasion (English is not my native language, I apologize for potential errors) but I consider them pretty normal for teenage boys. At least from my experience. You can find many common characteristics between the two genders in terms of personality and behavior.

Regarding your question and everything else, I find them very interesting. I didn't think that far. First of all, yes. I believe their body structures are designed to imply their dynamics, not necessarily in bed (that's totally different) but in their relationship in general. They both are kind of soft though, thank god toxic masculinity is absent. As for the subversion, the current events don't indicate significant changes from the already known archetypes. The thing that I'm pleasantly surprised is the grounded and healthy representation. I can't believe I'm saying this because it should be given, but yaoi and bl genres are messed up in many ways. I consider Sasaki and Miyano as an actual ordinary romance.

I'm not sure how long you've been watching anime to know about common design elements or tropes.

Take a look at their eyes.

Redhead has smaller, angular, sharper eyes. This is a typical design for male lead characters in shoujo. It's supposed to be give them a fierce look and make them look "hot" or a "bad boy". You can instantly tell by the art if it's a shoujo/josei/otoge type of material.

The other guy meanwhile has big round oval eyes typical of the female lead in shoujo. It makes them look "cute" and "innocent".

99% of shoujo is the contrast between the "bad boy" pursuing the "innocent girl".

If you put black hair in a skirt and gave him shoulder length hair, it is almost indistinguishable from a shoujo.

The eyes is just an art style, it has nothing to do with the genre. I agree that they reflect some personality traits though, like you pointed. However, those kind of traits appear in all anime, not shoujo in particular. On top of that, the vast majority of male characters in anime can easily look like female, adding hair and a skirt.

And I'm truly sorry, but I'm lost. Are you trying to say that it's like a shoujo and not a BL? If that's the case, I think you're half right and half wrong. What I mean is that both straight and homosexual couples have similar dynamics in the sense that one is more dominant than the other, gender aside. So, whether Sasaki is the dom or not is irrelevant. As for their behavior and appearance, like I said before, the line between genders is blurry. A guy can be feminine and a girl can be manly. For example, Miyano is soft and modest with feminine appearance, so a big part of male and female high school students.

The antithesis between the pairs is more prominent in most of the anime, straight or not, for the sake of entertainment. The most significant differences between shoujo and shounen ai are their gender, sex, and the circumstances hindering their love life.

Feb 6, 2022 3:56 PM

#14

Bixxbite

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Eren_Cho said:

I'm not sure what do you mean with "monolith" in this occasion (English is not my native language, I apologize for potential errors) but I consider them pretty normal for teenage boys. At least from my experience. You can find many common characteristics between the two genders in terms of personality and behavior.

It was just a joke that teenage boys don't all act in one, uniform way xD But what I meant is that it doesn't really matter if they "act like boys", because the typical masc/femme dynamic is still there regardless of their actual gender.

Eren_Cho said:

The thing that I'm pleasantly surprised is the grounded and healthy representation. I can't believe I'm saying this because it should be given, but yaoi and bl genres are messed up in many ways. I consider Sasaki and Miyano as an actual ordinary romance.

I'm well aware of BLs representation of gay relationships. And while their relationship so far has been a lot more healthy than the relationships in other BL anime, I think it's really only marginally less heteronormative than them (though again, that's from my perspective as a female viewer). That's mostly what this whole discussion boils down to; the author still portraying the relationship from that kind of dynamic. Like mechian said:

mechian said:

99% of shoujo is the contrast between the "bad boy" pursuing the "innocent girl".

If you put black hair in a skirt and gave him shoulder length hair, it is almost indistinguishable from a shoujo.

The designs clearly envoke this shoujo aesthetic and the story itself does also kind of play into that. Regardless if you think Sasaki is "actually masculine" doesn't necessarily matter in this context.

Feb 6, 2022 4:05 PM

#15

Bixxbite

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Eren_Cho said:

What I mean is that both straight and homosexual couples have similar dynamics in the sense that one is more dominant than the other, gender aside.

That's really not what I've heard from the gay and bi men that criticize BL for this? But even if that were the case, to ascribe such characteristics is very gendered in this context. Dominant = "the man", submissive = "the woman". That's mainly what the actual criticism is, it's very heteronormative.

Eren_Cho said:

A guy can be feminine and a girl can be manly. For example, Miyano is soft and modest with feminine appearance, so a big part of male and female high school students.

Again, that was a deliberate choice by the author, not happenstance or just how Miyano is as a person. Yes, feminine men and masculine women exist, I don't think OP is denying that in any way. This basically just circles back to the main criticism that I mentioned earlier.

Feb 6, 2022 4:40 PM

#16

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Bixxbite said:

Eren_Cho said:

What I mean is that both straight and homosexual couples have similar dynamics in the sense that one is more dominant than the other, gender aside.

That's really not what I've heard from the gay and bi men that criticize BL for this? But even if that were the case, to ascribe such characteristics is very gendered in this context. Dominant = "the man", submissive = "the woman". That's mainly what the actual criticism is, it's very heteronormative.

Eren_Cho said:

A guy can be feminine and a girl can be manly. For example, Miyano is soft and modest with feminine appearance, so a big part of male and female high school students.

Again, that was a deliberate choice by the author, not happenstance or just how Miyano is as a person. Yes, feminine men and masculine women exist, I don't think OP is denying that in any way. This basically just circles back to the main criticism that I mentioned earlier.

I'm bi myself and I always stumble upon arguments of straight people like the role of the woman and the man. What does that mean exactly? Dominance in a relationship is completely irrelevant with the gender. It's natural for straight people to assume those stuff because of the intercourse but it still bugs me.

I get the argument rereading our conversation and I won't lie, it's a trope. They deliberately design the characters to match their dynamics in the relationship, mostly height and muscles (with some exceptions ofc). However, those characteristics don't apply to sex, "receiver" is not equal to feminine. It's not boy and girl where those roles are fixed. Most of the gay couples are verse regardless how they look like and their overall preference. A confident hulk can easily be the uke from times to times, regardless the seme.

Let's say we agree. I completely understand this argument and I think this trope is true to an extent, but it's not that simple. Whatever the author tries to accomplish, it seems pretty accurate to me - not entirely of course, it's fiction.

Feb 6, 2022 4:53 PM

#17

whisperGoggles

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Jan 2019

339

I mean, this is the same kind of trope as blonde x brunette. Yeah you can definitely find BL shows with similar-statured MLs: off the top of my head there is Doukyuusei, TGCF, given, and No. 6 (No.6 is shitty tho).

im not completely sure, but im pretty sure that Hirano and rooommate are similar in height.

also, we can't say for sure that Miyano is the bottom since, as the man himself said, short tops are popular lol

MK17_2 said:
The "balanced couple" caught my attention. It does often feel like (BL in general) even though there are technically both boys, the one always seems more feminine, as if to make it more acceptable and draw less attention from the fact that it's two boys in love.
Is it just me?
Like junjou romantica or its spin off - the world's greatest first love
Or this other one - the world's sexiest guy won't stop harassing me (something like that)
Or hitorma my hero (sorry something like that)
I've never got the sense that male couples are "balanced" both aren't equally masculine. I still feel like I'm watching a petite girl and guy just blushing and gushing. It's cute I'm not complaining. I like BL and read manga too but can't ignore that imbalance in male couples.
Sorry I don't mean this at all in a bad way. I do enjoy this anime. I just wonder if anyone else gets this same feeling with BL

the problem here is that shitty yaoi are the ones that tend to get adapted, shitty shows tend to abuse popular tropes, and shitty shows tend to be in the majority (ie. isekai trash). So, since shitty yaoi are the most well-known, it isn't as apparent as it should be that this age-gap trope isn't as abundant in yaoi as people think it is. The ones that you mentioned fall under the shitty but well known category

whisperGogglesFeb 6, 2022 5:06 PM

Feb 6, 2022 5:19 PM

#18

Bixxbite

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Eren_Cho said:

I get the argument rereading our conversation and I won't lie, it's a trope. They deliberately design the characters to match their dynamics in the relationship, mostly height and muscles (with some exceptions ofc). However, those characteristics don't apply to sex, "receiver" is not equal to feminine.

And I completely agree. But ignoring the fact that BL anime and manga are most often made BY (straight) women FOR (straight) women seems a lil obtuse. I think I made it pretty clear in my previous comments, but these dynamics are gendered IN THIS SPECIFIC CONTEXT by both its authors and their readers in a way that's palatable for both of them. Masculinity and dominance are interlinked here, in the same way that femininity and submission are. A few actual gay or bi men having these concrete dynamics in their relationship is kind of irrelevant here, because we're talking about the trope's prominence and origin (in heterosexual relationship dynamics), not its realism.

Either way, I think it's pretty clear that we both agree that it's a trope, but I think you're focusing too much on its supposed "realism" instead of the deeper implications of that trope and where it comes from. You as an individual bi man can like or dislike or have any kind of opinion on this trope as you please, I feel like it'd be stupid to criticize that so I haven't and I won't lmao

BixxbiteFeb 6, 2022 5:51 PM

Feb 6, 2022 5:54 PM

#19

skylucario

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Bixxbite said:

Again, that was a deliberate choice by the author, not happenstance or just how Miyano is as a person. Yes, feminine men and masculine women exist, I don't think OP is denying that in any way. This basically just circles back to the main criticism that I mentioned earlier.

Yeah, she deliberately chose to show that he felt uncomfortable with how his appearance would be perceived through a BL lens. I think it was supposed to be a critique.

I can’t remember whether this has been in the show yet (i think it has), but it was definitely in the manga.

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Feb 6, 2022 6:05 PM

#20

Bixxbite

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skylucario said:

Yeah, she deliberately chose to show that he felt uncomfortable with how his appearance would be perceived through a BL lens. I think it was supposed to be a critique.

Feel like I'm becoming a broken record here xD While I agree that his feminine appearance making him genuinely uncomfortable is a nice subversion, it's not just his appearance. His mannerisms and dynamic together with Sasaki is still very masc/femme, etc, etc. I'm not saying that the critique/subversion that the author attempted to create falls completely flat or anything, just that I'm feeling that the story still uses some tired BL tropes in a sincere way. Again, I feel like I made this pretty clear in my first comment lmao

Feb 10, 2022 5:55 AM

#21

l1ghtmyluv

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Bixxbite said:

Feel like I'm becoming a broken record here xD While I agree that his feminine appearance making him genuinely uncomfortable is a nice subversion, it's not just his appearance. His mannerisms and dynamic together with Sasaki is still very masc/femme, etc, etc. I'm not saying that the critique/subversion that the author attempted to create falls completely flat or anything, just that I'm feeling that the story still uses some tired BL tropes in a sincere way. Again, I feel like I made this pretty clear in my first comment lmao

I understand what you're saying.
Even tho I'm a big fan of this story, I do understand your criticism and I agree that it still uses some BL tropes. However, I believe the author is using them to try to change the common sight that readers have towards this genre. Because, even tho there are tropes, the dynamic and their personalities are different from what we normally see in BL.
And also, I think we're analyzing this without considering the context. Sasaki is bolder and he's like pursuing more to be by Miyano' side (which, by the BL standard, he would be considered the "top"), but that's because he realized his feelings for him first. Right now, Miyano is very confused, he's still questioning himself, "do I like boys too?", he gets shy around Sasaki because he doesn't know what to do yet, so I guess that's why we think we're seeing this dynamic that you mentioned.
Since we're still at the beginning of the story, it's too early to realize it, but in the manga, at the middle to the lastest chapter, you can see very clearly how their dynamic changes. At least, for me. I don't know if that makes sense, I tried my best to express my opinion without leaking any spoilers.

Feb 10, 2022 8:27 AM

#22

vibininthefields

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Aug 2021

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skylucario said:

Bixxbite said:

Again, that was a deliberate choice by the author, not happenstance or just how Miyano is as a person. Yes, feminine men and masculine women exist, I don't think OP is denying that in any way. This basically just circles back to the main criticism that I mentioned earlier.

Yeah, she deliberately chose to show that he felt uncomfortable with how his appearance would be perceived through a BL lens. I think it was supposed to be a critique.

I can’t remember whether this has been in the show yet (i think it has), but it was definitely in the manga.

this part is in the anime in the first or second episode if I'm not wrong.

Feb 10, 2022 7:14 PM

#23

gumrats

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Sep 2009

144

It was definitely an intentional choice by the author as part of the genre subversion.

Not to say that there isn't still a ton of BL with masc top/fem bottom dynamics but it's proportionally a lot less than it used to be (at least in my experience).

Most of the BL that have been adapted have been the shittiest ones, so if you're going by anime-only standards (especially pre-2016 ish) then yeah it's overwhelmingly masc top/fem bottom. When it comes to more recent anime and manga, I've actually found that two "straight-with-an-exception" neutral guys of similar height/build is just as common. And personally as a gay man I'd rather an author depict a stereotype respectfully than one who goes out of their way to distance their characters from gay/bi identities.

Feb 11, 2022 10:27 AM

#24

littlepenguinn

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Jun 2021

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if you don't like the main pairing in this show because they are too 'unbalanced' you may prefer the side couple (although i don't know how many of their scenes from the manga will be adapted)

but like others have already said, i think that it was 100% the author's intention to create a pairing where one is 'obviously' the uke compared to the other, in order to subvert typical bl expectations by having them directly question their roles. if that's not your cup of tea that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't necessarily make them 'unbalanced' as a couple. it's not as if sasaki thinks of miyano as a girl, there's no power imbalance outside of the standard senpai/kouhai relationship, and there's no imbalance in their personalities either.

Feb 13, 2022 9:45 AM

#25

l1ghtmyluv

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50

gumrats said:
It was definitely an intentional choice by the author as part of the genre subversion.

Not to say that there isn't still a ton of BL with masc top/fem bottom dynamics but it's proportionally a lot less than it used to be (at least in my experience).

Most of the BL that have been adapted have been the shittiest ones, so if you're going by anime-only standards (especially pre-2016 ish) then yeah it's overwhelmingly masc top/fem bottom. When it comes to more recent anime and manga, I've actually found that two "straight-with-an-exception" neutral guys of similar height/build is just as common. And personally as a gay man I'd rather an author depict a stereotype respectfully than one who goes out of their way to distance their characters from gay/bi identities.

I agree with you. The amount of "balanced" couples in BL manga is bigger than what's seen in anime. I have been reading BL manga a lot these days and I came across a vast range of couples, with different personalities and dynamics. And as a person from the LGBT community, I think the way their sexuality is being addressed in this story is more respectful than how is addressed in most BL anime. And it doesn't have that crap "I don't like guys, I just like you".

Feb 20, 2022 7:04 AM

#26

leafzz_

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Jul 2021

4

Yeah I agree that's a common trope but this anime acknowledges it and shows how insecure it can make someone feel. miyano doesn't like his feminine face.

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