| This discussion has been a part of the talk around Bokuben since Chapter 150, the end of Uruka Route. We are now ten days out from the end of the series so I think it is safe now to look back and talk about it now that it is all over. The consensus from what I've seen breaks down into mostly two groups - those that were all for it and those that thought it was a terrible idea. Those that were for it, me included, were excited about the idea of having a visual novel style ending to this series. This way, all five of the major heroines got a chance to take center stage and get their Happily Ever After with Nariyuki. Looking back on how it was executed - it could have been better. Uruka's was rushed, Rizu's had the wrong focus, the other three were good but all had the problem of forcing everything into nine chapters. The idea itself is one I wish was used more often in harem manga, especially ones like this where the winner isn't as clear. We know this game - a lot harem manga have the winner telegraphed from the beginning. I don't want to spoil anything for those that haven't read or watched a particular series, but just think back to your own experiences in this genre and I think you will come to a similar conclusion. I saw statements like these in other discussions: "Manga are not a visual novels. When everything is canon, nothing is." We will just have to agree to disagree, because I think this way of thinking is short-sighted. Do I think EVERY harem manga needs routes? No, of course not, but I think they should be used if it makes sense to use them and I think Bokuben was one of those cases. Not to give anything away for The Quintessential Quintuplets in this thread, but I believe that was one that could have benefitted from the same treatment - it even has a built in setup for it! At the same time, a lot of harem or harem-esque properties get adapted into games, VNs and the like anyway. Just to use a recent example, The Quintessential Quintuplets game was just announced a few days ago and multiple endings have already been confirmed. The question is how canon is it to you? For a lot of people who were dissatisfied with how the manga played out, this game will be their canon ending and no can tell them anything different. TBH, one the endings of the My Teen Romantic Comedy SNAFU VN that came out a while ago is my canon ending. In SNAFU's case, that scenario was written by the original author so that's close enough for me. Looking at the other side, there are definite merits to not going with routes and focusing on one girl for the finale of a series like this. If Tsutsui and the team he worked with had decided to go all in we could have avoided the nine chapter problem and really fleshed out the relationship between Nariyuki and Girl X, giving those two characters in particular a chance to really grow. Routes also have the issue of having to change some details that have be spelled out or inferred. For example, in the Kirisu-sensei Route the ski trip event played out nearly the same as it did in the Uruka route, but that was never really addressed and some details about past events that weren't in the base story had to be changed and introduced. In this case, it was Mafuyu's senior year school festival that put them together when they were younger. If it just told one continuous story without branching I think the readers that stuck with it would have been satisfied and it may have even been a better story for it. But... I'm not in charge of a magazine - I can only assume that Tsutsui was given until December 20th and they had to make it work. It is my personal theory that the course changed for those involved after Kirisu-sensei became the most popular character among their polling audience by a large margin. I think the story was originally conceived with Uruka being the "winner" at the end, but that just wasn't what a lot of the audience wanted to see. As an author, you want to tell the story you want to tell, but at the same time, this was published in a magazine that had their own ideas about what sells. I'm sorry if this makes anyone mad, but Uruka wasn't the character that was resonating with the magazine buying audience. There will never be a true consensus on this topic - this opens the door wider for other manga to do this and for some this is a welcome option that should be considered, but for others doing routes is just not a valid way to tell a story in a manga. For people who think like that, a story on paper has a beginning, a middle, and an ending. Period. I can understand - that's just how books are generally written. Routes aren't a perfect solution and they weren't a perfect solution for Bokuben. As much as I love the final three routes, they all had to bend the continuity of the base story to varying degrees and they had to either rush or leave out elements that could have been explored in greater detail. However, I believe that routes were the best solution for this manga and I'm glad this is the course they decided to take. What do you all think? |
BarnaldFeb 13, 2021 3:04 AM
Mattinator95 said: Should have stuck with one ending, And the last chapter kinda ruins the idea by Making every route a dream and set like the day or few days after the festival and leaving it ambiguous I can respect your opinion about only having one ending, but saying that chapter 187 cancels the routes by making them into dreams is just wrong. First and foremost the chapter starts with this line: "And in the end, we still have one more story of ANOTHER world." This chapter does not invalidate everything that came before. People get hung up on the dream part but this is a series that has ghosts and timeslips, so the girls getting a peak of a possible future with Nariyuki after the Fireworks of Fate event in their dreams is not unprecedented. Nariyuki even spells out it saying, "We're always at the crossroads between infinite possible futures." Everyone was touching everyone else during that scene creating an unknown future with infinite possibilities. This chapter exists to bring everyone in for one last ride and to remind the readers that the future is ours for the shaping. I will agree that if you spin the world presented in chapter 187 forward, then yes, its outcome for Nariyuki and the girls is ambiguous. The future could wind up back with one of the main 5 or branch off into new territory, like leading to one-off stories featuring characters like Miharu. Like I said, that chapter is just a tag to bring everyone together one more time and leave the decision on how the story ended up to the reader. I'm not the biggest fan of that chapter either TBH, but I expected something like it would be the final chapter. |
| The one credit I'll give the route endings is that it kept Tsutsui from having to drag out the main story. If Bokuben had a solid ending, then he likely would have had to stretch the main story out another 4 volumes. I'm not the biggest fan of the routes, though. I liked each one well enough (especially Asumi's and Sensei's), but it felt kinda hack-ish to write five routes and tell the reader to decide which one they feel is "real". If everybody "wins", then it feels like nobody wins. That may have been the point, which I respect, but telling the reader to decide who wins (and then writing that last chapter, which felt like a backpedal from that) makes Tsutsui look like a hack. Springing the route ending concept on us right after Route 1/5 girl won soured my impression of the manga a bit (especially since the anime spoiled who it was, lmao), but after finishing it just now I would stay I still enjoyed my time with Bokuben. |
JRyanC said: The one credit I'll give the route endings is that it kept Tsutsui from having to drag out the main story. If Bokuben had a solid ending, then he likely would have had to stretch the main story out another 4 volumes. I'm not the biggest fan of the routes, though. I liked each one well enough (especially Asumi's and Sensei's), but it felt kinda hack-ish to write five routes and tell the reader to decide which one they feel is "real". If everybody "wins", then it feels like nobody wins. That may have been the point, which I respect, but telling the reader to decide who wins (and then writing that last chapter, which felt like a backpedal from that) makes Tsutsui look like a hack. The routes altogether were 45 chapters so that would have been 4-5 more volumes. It makes me wonder in a story like this, if there was really anything to "stretch out", for lack of a better term. The basic premise is: boy helps girls study, boy does not get involved in romance until after the exams end, the exams end in #141, so time for romance. If it was Uruka, we probably would have gotten the "Australia" arc which could have been a long-distance relationship story, which doesn't sound that appealing to me after the flow of the base story. It could have worked with 45 chapters to play with, but at that point they might as well just ended Bokuben after #141 and started a sequel series. At any rate, we'll never know what could have been. I've seen the term "hack" being thrown around and based on the definition of it, I'm just not seeing it. It is broadly used for everything from mediocre to someone paid to write "low-quality, rushed articles or books "to order", often with a short deadline." I don't think that anyone is going to make the argument that Bokuben is the deepest story with the most complex characters ever, but I think calling it low quality is off the mark. Think back on just the artwork alone - I don't think it is mediocre or sub-par at all, but I guess your mileage may vary. In terms of the story, some things were glossed over when moving from route to route and that is a shortcoming. Nine chapters isn't enough to fill in all the changed details while still moving the story forward. Making the reader infer is not the best idea, but at the same time, I didn't find it too distracting. I can see how that could really turn off some people though. It isn't enough for me to call the man a hack. I approached the routes in a similar way to how I approach stories told by visual novels with choices. In those stories, the player (reader) has the choice on which ending is correct for them and they have the option to read them all. They are all equally valid - that's just how they are set up and it is ultimately the path the Bokuben chose to follow as well. Chapter 187 creates more problems for readers than it should. Like I already said: "the chapter starts with this line: "And in the end, we still have one more story of ANOTHER world." This chapter does not invalidate everything that came before. People get hung up on the dream part but this is a series that has ghosts and timeslips, so the girls getting a peak of a possible future with Nariyuki after the Fireworks of Fate event in their dreams is not unprecedented." If you spin the world of the last chapter forward, then yes, the ending of the story is unclear. Does it lead back into one of the main five again, does Miharu get a chance, does he meet someone in college or after beginning his job, or does he just end up cold and alone? Nobody knows. All we have is just the moral the story: "We're always at the crossroads between infinite possible futures." That isn't a bad sentiment, but I was hoping for something else as the last chapter. JRyanC said: Springing the route ending concept on us right after Route 1/5 girl won soured my impression of the manga a bit (especially since the anime spoiled who it was, lmao), but after finishing it just now I would stay I still enjoyed my time with Bokuben. For me, that was the best part, lol. I also never count the anime and manga as being in same canon. Things get moved around and changed all the time when stuff gets adapted. Sometimes it ends up close to manga and sometimes it runs off on its own and that either works out or doesn't. Bokuben didn't give me everything I wanted out of it, but it gave me more than most. I really enjoyed my time with it. |
Zokaru said: I'm a little bit late, but here we go. Eh, stories last forever so I don't think you have to worry so much about being late. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Zokaru said: First of all, I don't really care that much about the romance part of the story. This is a comedy manga for me, romance is secondary, so no ending could be a deal breaker for me. I can understand that, but I read most romcoms to see how the comedy and romance interplay together and how that affects the characters. I was more interested in seeing how the romance part of it would play out. Zokaru said: That said, I also think the routes were a good idea considering the situation of the story and the fanbase. The execution on the other hand was far from perfect. - Uruka, imo, was the way to go if the ending had been a "traditional" one. There was a considerable buildup, the moving overseas thing was a classic but effective plot device to give the ending some charm, and at least we could've break the childhood friend curse ;P. Precisely because of all of this, the route felt a little underwhelming (the flashback was pretty good tho). - Rizu's route was decent and kind of fun, but the romance itself wasn't that great. I think this has more to do with the fact Rizu was overall underdeveloped through the series. I actually cared more about Sekijo and the ghost. - Furuhashi felt a little forced to me. Sorry, I didn't buy how easily Nari changed his mind, specially after seeing his backstory with Uruka. - The big surprise for me was Asumi. I never paid too much attention to her character before, but I really enjoyed the route. Seeing Nari as a teacher was awesome, the new setting was fresh, and overall the story flowed pretty smoothly to me. - And Mafuyu... Don't get me wrong, I LOVE sensei but this route was kinda weird. Nari was really out of character sometimes, and the whole promise flashback thing was a waste of time imo. Maybe I just can't help to see the whole thing as too bizarre. I never saw sensei as a realistic romantic interest. On the contrary, her arc was all about reflecting on her past, realizing her present good deeds, and moving on. The "romance" across the manga was played out for comedy and fanservice, because realistically it makes no sense (that was part of the joke). More so, I think the romance got in the way of her character arc. Sorry about the rant, I had to say it. But I really liked the wedding chapter! And seeing Nari's dad was cool too. I pretty much agree with your assessments and criticisms, except that I was able to buy how the Fumino route played out and I thought Nariyuki & Mafuyu were the most natural together from the beginning. I will agree that Nariyuki was a little out of character, especially in the first chapter of that route, but he recovered after that. We just didn't see their interactions in the same way, and that's fine. Zokaru said: About the last chapter, I really don't mind. It's actually just an excuse to see everyone interacting one more time and ending the manga with that nice panel. It doesn't break the continuity of the routes because, well, it's about alternate universes to begin with. To sum it up: nice idea, so-so execution. It didn't change my opinion/enjoyment of the manga anyways. Hopefully we'll see more endings like this, but with more time and focus please. I was actually predicting that the last chapter would be similar to how it actually played out. In my version, it was Nariyuki seeing visions of the routes before the first day of school, but the message was ultimately the same: the future is unwritten and ours for the shaping. That's fine, but I was hoping for an actual epilogue... so I commissioned an artist to make it for me: https://twitter.com/ArchsagePent/status/1363263443604828160 I also agree with your summary: good idea but could have been executed a bit better. |
Nerothos said: I just read both 5tobun and bokutachi back to back (well I actually read 5tobun before but I stopped like a year or two before the end) and after being greatly disappointed with how bad 5tobun was ended (the way it ended more than the girl even though I'm a bit mad he didn't make that character really have a progress), Bokutatchi really topped the ending with it's visual novel ending. I read QQ last August and I started reading Bokuben in September, so I read them fairly close together as well. This isn't the thread to go too in-depth with QQ and how it ended, but I more or less agree with you on both counts. I really hope that QQ VN gets an English release! Nerothos said: It's the best harem manga I read in a while and I really like that he gave each character an ending even though the Takemoto seem a bit more "official" (specially with her being the first route and with how the anime showed her being more or less the only one choosen). It also serve so we can choose the one we like. When I look back at my own list, I haven't really read that many harem manga. Most of the ones I have read have two rivals vying for the MC's affections. I mentioned it elsewhere, but I think that Uruka was the planned ending before Mafuyu ran away with the popularity polls. I believe that is what led Tsutsui and the people over at Jump to go with routes. I mean, in that second poll, Mafuyu had over 60%, more than the other four combined! https://image.myanimelist.net/ui/5LYzTBVoS196gvYvw3zjwGAG6Vyxu9QekqcjPeKpXmY This is just me, but I don't fret too much when an anime deviates from the manga. They just exist in their own worlds. Nerothos said: The only thing that could've made it "better" would've to have a 6th route ending with all girls but that's not really possible in a reality settings x) Yeah, I don't think a true harem ending is possible in a modern day Japan setting. I really only let that slide in fantasy stories where the MC is a royal or something where a lot of heirs are required. TBH, I'm not a big fan of true harem endings, but whatever I guess. |
| 186 had the ending I wanted, so I'll leave it at that. |
| Liked the idea, I enjoyed every ending. Despite being 5/6 different endings, every one add something to the whole (the backstories). BUT, I have to say that Mafuyu's ending felt kinda... forced? Or something like, despite being my favorite one and enjoying how the route ended the development felt kinda... unreal or unnatural, too many coincidences that didn't needed to exist (Rizu + ghost also kinda meh even tho I enjoyed it). The idea of the MC being the kouhai was cool, and just that idea was enough for the romance... the fake couple deal, being neighbours and the "I contacted every classmate" was pretty forced... I liked the rejection the confusion of the sensei. The other 3 routes were beter excuted imo, overrall and despite not being my favorite one, I think that Fumino's route was the best overall. Despite all this, Mafuyu best waifu |
DaCraziGuyMay 27, 2021 2:44 PM
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