You might be right. I just didn't get much of a suicide-vibe from Oz when I watched the series, if my memory serves me correctly, but my opinion holds that it's still incredibly difficult to believe Oz, even if we accept that he has no will to live, takes in the existence of monsters and a hellish world he never knew existed before in stride. It's been a few years since I've even touched the PH series (either anime or manga), and it was mostly a forgettable series, so I can't really remember much of it to comment on anything.
Thank you!
And yeah, it's really too bad when that happens. And it wasn't like I wasn't entertained - at first, I really was captivated, but in the end I felt like I might as well not watch it, which is never a good sign. Ah well, good thing there are other anime out there who are more enjoyable, right? :)
I think you have this outline in your head on how the mystery genre should be. You want it in a particular way, but when it doesn't satisfy those criteria of yours, it fails as a show.
You still don't understand why I said K is okay the way it is. I am not objective. In fact, I can never be objective and I never even tried to be objective. From my perspective, how a person approaches K influences how he or she sees it. From the way you approached it, I can see where all the flaws of K come from. However, if you approach it a little differently, the flaws you see won't be flaws anymore.
It's like, the difference between you buying something from a store and find it defective and receiving a handmade gift from someone important to you and find it flawed. I like to approach every anime the latter way. I feel like I can get more meanings out of things, and yes, I am no longer objective, but as I said, I can never be and this applies to everyone else too.
You are trying too hard to be objective. The reason I gave K a 10 is out of subjective feelings, and the reason I don't think K deserves the rating it has now is also out of subjective feelings. But when I admit it, I bet all my previous argument loses its credibility.
Let's just say, I want people to approach K a little differently. K doesn't follow the old format and doesn't need to. When you start to accept this and if you watch K again, you'll see everything differently. That's why I went around saying a lot of people are prejudiced about K. Their perspective is focused on wanting to judge it by comparing it to other series of the same genre. There are a lot of anime that should not be judged this way, and K is one of them.
I get your point. The way I view K is not the way you and many others view K. But understand my point too. K is not a plot driven story but a character driven story. K doesn't need to explain every background detail. It doesn't need to because it's not a mystery story focused on unraveling those background details. Rather, it's solely focused on just a few characters. That's why the introduction of many characters and their flashbacks are necessary for the audience to understand the motives and actions of the main characters. K is simply a character driven story. I agree that a lot of the explanations for the characters' super powers are too convenient. In fact, I was frowning the entire time during the first episode. I dislike the super power, action genre in general. But when I realized K is not plot driven, I changed my opinion. Have you watched Hyouka before? Aren't the mysteries in there just extremely boring? What K and Hyouka have in common is that they are not plot driven mysteries, and that's why they are more comparable to the psychological horror genre. It's the psychology of the characters that drive the story forward, not the plot. In fact, if you think about it, there is no way plot can move forward without the characters. The only way it can do that is by having some omniscient creator controlling each character like puppets. The characters would do what's written in the script, and this way, all the mysteries will be unraveled. But K isn't like that. The story doesn't let you know everything because it's from the characters' perspective, not the omniscient creator's perspective. I can understand why some people might not see K this way, but if you do look at K this way, you'll appreciate the beauty of it more.
Have you watched serial experiment lain, boogiepop phantom, or garden of sinners before? If so, I think you can treat K similarly as you treated those three,
Those three are very typical psychological horror stories. Their complexity comes from the psychological depth to the characters.
I don't think an average person needs everything spelled out to them to understand the characters in K. I don't know whether those who think K is confusing actually watched those three series before, because to me, the psychology behind the characters and plot are hinted pretty expertly in K. I do think however that those three series I mentioned are too convoluted and unclear, but K to me felt just right.
I'll address your misunderstandings and lack of understanding about the characters
1. Mikoto being the red king wields fire and surprisingly Tatara told him his fire protects his followers. How so? Mikoto is a self-sacrificial person and he doesn't know any other way to protect the people around him. Have you ever considered each of Mikoto's actions and why Tatara was so important to him? Tatara was the first person who gave him the strength needed to keep on doing what he has been doing. Mikoto has a lot of pride but lacks self-confidence in his own pride. He didn't know if his pride and his way of doing things were right. Tatara was the person who told him to believe in himself. After losing Tatara, Mikoto's newly gained confidence lacked meaning. He could not live with the regret of not being able to protect the person who told him he can protect people. That's how the tragedy started at epiosode 1. Being unable to live with the regret, Mikoto resorted to the suicidal wish of ending things his own way once and for all, and because of that suicidal wish, he was no longer suited to be the king. Glass-kun knew that part of him and tried to stop him before too late, being the blue king who can supposedly calm the fire, but it didn't help. Mikoto couldn't be saved. Do you know why Anna saw Mikoto so beautifully colored and why his followers are so devoted to him? It's because they could feel the warmth around Mikoto as he self-sacrifices silently for the sake of those around him. Symbolically, he is like the fire that burns itself up providing warmth to others. That's why Mikoto is the red king and why he wields fire. He is also the foil to Shiro.
2. Shiro is a person of smiles. He smiles even in pain. That's the kind of person Shiro is. Why does he do it? He does it so that people around him could smile too in return. In this respect, he is no different from Mikoto. They have similar intentions but different method of doing things. Shiro is also a lonely sufferer because nobody understands him and the world he wants to create. Shiro is the major character that developed while I would say Mikoto was already developed since the beginning. Shiro at first resorted to escapism. Shiro changed after meeting Neko and Kuroh. He gained something he needed to protect, and that's why he self-sacrificed at the end. The old Shiro would not have done it. However, he still stayed who he was with his forceful smiles. When he gained people to smile to, he also gained confidence in his own worth. In a way, it's similar to how Mikoto gained the confidence through Tatara. Because of this confidence, Shiro could gain back of his memories of the silver king and no longer be entirely influenced by the colorless king.
These are just a few traits of Mikoto and Shiro. There are others that symbolically connect their powers and actions together. You never considered the hidden meanings of their powers and tried to understand the intention behind their actions. They are very kind people inside.
To address your issues with K, I suggest you read the review of FlawFinder on MAL for K. http://myanimelist.net/profile/Flawfinder/reviews
I would like to add that there is another way to develop the characters beside changing them. In Steins;gate, do you think you can write a 10 page paper on the personality and development of other characters beside Okabe? I doubt you can, because those characters are all stereotyped people designed for the sake of Okabe. In K, you get at least 2 characters you can write a 10 page report on, Mikoto and Shiro. How can someone who had little screen time like Mikoto be a complex character? Because he is already psychologically deep as a character in the beginning. None of the characters in Steins;gate were psychologically deep. In fact, in almost all anime, you don't have psychologically complex characters. The best they can do is to change them with plot twists and call that development. Starting with a psychologically complex character is a harder option, because this way, even if the characters have little screen time, they add new layers of meaning, not just layers of thick plot twists.
Steins;gate is a plot driven story while K is character driven. For me character driven stories will always remain superior to plot driven ones.
As for your comment on MAL rankings, I never refer to them. I have seen better series than the top five on MAL. and I'm sure you have too.
You know, I absolutely adore Monster, but I adore K too much too. If you like yuuko so much from dusk maiden of amnesia, I don't think it's the fanservice in K that really bothered you. If you like the plot of Steins; gate, I don't think it's the plot of K that should bother you. And yet these are the two things you mentioned in your review of K that you dislike about K.
I love yuuko senpai too. But exactly because I love yuuko senpai, I love neko and shiro. Yuuko senpai's warmness as a ghost is greater than a living person's. The way she is around Teiichi is like the way neko is around Shiro, except that there is no romantic feelings between neko and Shiro. But yuuko's personality is more similar to Shiro's, always smiling even in pain and willing to sacrifice herself in the end. But Teiichi saved her by accepting who she is, just like how neko and kuroh saved Shiro by accepting who Shiro is.
The plot of K is better than the plot of Steins; gate in my opinion. But both series give the right amount of hints in each episode to have you guessing. What makes K's plot better for me is that it actually sticks to the plot without branching off to other things, like introducing unnecessary characters. Why is K's plot so bad for you? Do you think K has too many unnecessary characters? I actually think that's the major flaw of Steins; gate.
Every character of K is important because each of them reflect something about the main characters. Steins;gate didn't do it this way. Steins;gate simply introduced characters for plot twists or comedy reliefs, and they don't add any depth to the main characters.
I don't think you and I judge things too differently, but I think you like plot driven stories more than I do. I prefer character driven stories like K.
I pretty much agree with what you said in your first paragraph. But I wouldn't say I have an "issue" with people judging anime without having much life experience, hell, I myself am still very young and inexperienced.
I just think that more knowledge and experience in both life and the medium at hand can help one in being more objective and apply some much needed perspective when judging more controversial works.
Anything released in the past 10 years is pretty much reviewed to death, and most of those are trash. I have been asked to write some, and my response is "Why?". If I find a great story from earlier days that is lightly reviewed I might write one. Instead, I use the forums and com to com to discuss my views with those willing to listen. I am very tough on some very popular titles and don't mind telling individuals why. But I refuse to bow to the "children" on MAL and try to explain something they don't understand. I think I mentioned that I am 66, so I have a mature view of most things (except fishing and baseball, LOL)
You are correct, too, most people are idiots and don's or won't use the brains they have. I try to give most things the benefit of the doubt, but if I don't like something, I don't like it...pure and simple. Example, I really don't care for most of the long running shounen titles out there. There are exceptions, InuYasha comes to mind. So, I doubt I'll look at most of them or look at a few episodes and move on. Now, Slice of Life is different. I will tackle almost all of those. Some I will not like, like K-on! and Minami-ke, but most do well with me. Similar with the works of Studio Ghibli, Makoto Shinkai and Satoshi Kon. Any work by Osaum Tezuka or Leiji Matsumoto is worth my time even if targeting a very young audience.
To Quote, "There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see". Emphasis mine. I think that sums up what both you and I are discussing, ne?
All Comments (17) Comments
And yeah, it's really too bad when that happens. And it wasn't like I wasn't entertained - at first, I really was captivated, but in the end I felt like I might as well not watch it, which is never a good sign. Ah well, good thing there are other anime out there who are more enjoyable, right? :)
You still don't understand why I said K is okay the way it is. I am not objective. In fact, I can never be objective and I never even tried to be objective. From my perspective, how a person approaches K influences how he or she sees it. From the way you approached it, I can see where all the flaws of K come from. However, if you approach it a little differently, the flaws you see won't be flaws anymore.
It's like, the difference between you buying something from a store and find it defective and receiving a handmade gift from someone important to you and find it flawed. I like to approach every anime the latter way. I feel like I can get more meanings out of things, and yes, I am no longer objective, but as I said, I can never be and this applies to everyone else too.
You are trying too hard to be objective. The reason I gave K a 10 is out of subjective feelings, and the reason I don't think K deserves the rating it has now is also out of subjective feelings. But when I admit it, I bet all my previous argument loses its credibility.
Let's just say, I want people to approach K a little differently. K doesn't follow the old format and doesn't need to. When you start to accept this and if you watch K again, you'll see everything differently. That's why I went around saying a lot of people are prejudiced about K. Their perspective is focused on wanting to judge it by comparing it to other series of the same genre. There are a lot of anime that should not be judged this way, and K is one of them.
Those three are very typical psychological horror stories. Their complexity comes from the psychological depth to the characters.
I don't think an average person needs everything spelled out to them to understand the characters in K. I don't know whether those who think K is confusing actually watched those three series before, because to me, the psychology behind the characters and plot are hinted pretty expertly in K. I do think however that those three series I mentioned are too convoluted and unclear, but K to me felt just right.
1. Mikoto being the red king wields fire and surprisingly Tatara told him his fire protects his followers. How so? Mikoto is a self-sacrificial person and he doesn't know any other way to protect the people around him. Have you ever considered each of Mikoto's actions and why Tatara was so important to him? Tatara was the first person who gave him the strength needed to keep on doing what he has been doing. Mikoto has a lot of pride but lacks self-confidence in his own pride. He didn't know if his pride and his way of doing things were right. Tatara was the person who told him to believe in himself. After losing Tatara, Mikoto's newly gained confidence lacked meaning. He could not live with the regret of not being able to protect the person who told him he can protect people. That's how the tragedy started at epiosode 1. Being unable to live with the regret, Mikoto resorted to the suicidal wish of ending things his own way once and for all, and because of that suicidal wish, he was no longer suited to be the king. Glass-kun knew that part of him and tried to stop him before too late, being the blue king who can supposedly calm the fire, but it didn't help. Mikoto couldn't be saved. Do you know why Anna saw Mikoto so beautifully colored and why his followers are so devoted to him? It's because they could feel the warmth around Mikoto as he self-sacrifices silently for the sake of those around him. Symbolically, he is like the fire that burns itself up providing warmth to others. That's why Mikoto is the red king and why he wields fire. He is also the foil to Shiro.
2. Shiro is a person of smiles. He smiles even in pain. That's the kind of person Shiro is. Why does he do it? He does it so that people around him could smile too in return. In this respect, he is no different from Mikoto. They have similar intentions but different method of doing things. Shiro is also a lonely sufferer because nobody understands him and the world he wants to create. Shiro is the major character that developed while I would say Mikoto was already developed since the beginning. Shiro at first resorted to escapism. Shiro changed after meeting Neko and Kuroh. He gained something he needed to protect, and that's why he self-sacrificed at the end. The old Shiro would not have done it. However, he still stayed who he was with his forceful smiles. When he gained people to smile to, he also gained confidence in his own worth. In a way, it's similar to how Mikoto gained the confidence through Tatara. Because of this confidence, Shiro could gain back of his memories of the silver king and no longer be entirely influenced by the colorless king.
These are just a few traits of Mikoto and Shiro. There are others that symbolically connect their powers and actions together. You never considered the hidden meanings of their powers and tried to understand the intention behind their actions. They are very kind people inside.
http://myanimelist.net/profile/Flawfinder/reviews
I would like to add that there is another way to develop the characters beside changing them. In Steins;gate, do you think you can write a 10 page paper on the personality and development of other characters beside Okabe? I doubt you can, because those characters are all stereotyped people designed for the sake of Okabe. In K, you get at least 2 characters you can write a 10 page report on, Mikoto and Shiro. How can someone who had little screen time like Mikoto be a complex character? Because he is already psychologically deep as a character in the beginning. None of the characters in Steins;gate were psychologically deep. In fact, in almost all anime, you don't have psychologically complex characters. The best they can do is to change them with plot twists and call that development. Starting with a psychologically complex character is a harder option, because this way, even if the characters have little screen time, they add new layers of meaning, not just layers of thick plot twists.
Steins;gate is a plot driven story while K is character driven. For me character driven stories will always remain superior to plot driven ones.
As for your comment on MAL rankings, I never refer to them. I have seen better series than the top five on MAL. and I'm sure you have too.
I love yuuko senpai too. But exactly because I love yuuko senpai, I love neko and shiro. Yuuko senpai's warmness as a ghost is greater than a living person's. The way she is around Teiichi is like the way neko is around Shiro, except that there is no romantic feelings between neko and Shiro. But yuuko's personality is more similar to Shiro's, always smiling even in pain and willing to sacrifice herself in the end. But Teiichi saved her by accepting who she is, just like how neko and kuroh saved Shiro by accepting who Shiro is.
The plot of K is better than the plot of Steins; gate in my opinion. But both series give the right amount of hints in each episode to have you guessing. What makes K's plot better for me is that it actually sticks to the plot without branching off to other things, like introducing unnecessary characters. Why is K's plot so bad for you? Do you think K has too many unnecessary characters? I actually think that's the major flaw of Steins; gate.
Every character of K is important because each of them reflect something about the main characters. Steins;gate didn't do it this way. Steins;gate simply introduced characters for plot twists or comedy reliefs, and they don't add any depth to the main characters.
I don't think you and I judge things too differently, but I think you like plot driven stories more than I do. I prefer character driven stories like K.
I just think that more knowledge and experience in both life and the medium at hand can help one in being more objective and apply some much needed perspective when judging more controversial works.
You are correct, too, most people are idiots and don's or won't use the brains they have. I try to give most things the benefit of the doubt, but if I don't like something, I don't like it...pure and simple. Example, I really don't care for most of the long running shounen titles out there. There are exceptions, InuYasha comes to mind. So, I doubt I'll look at most of them or look at a few episodes and move on. Now, Slice of Life is different. I will tackle almost all of those. Some I will not like, like K-on! and Minami-ke, but most do well with me. Similar with the works of Studio Ghibli, Makoto Shinkai and Satoshi Kon. Any work by Osaum Tezuka or Leiji Matsumoto is worth my time even if targeting a very young audience.
To Quote, "There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see". Emphasis mine. I think that sums up what both you and I are discussing, ne?