MAL has long been a breeding ground for brainless pseudo-intellectuals, after all it's far easier to seem intelligent by pretending to see something 'artistic' and hur-durr philosophical in deliberately ambiguous storylines rather than engage in something that actually requires intellect.
I haven't read (yet) Utsuro no Hako to Zero no Maria, so I cannot say if your review is accurate or not according to the novel, but from the ignorance point of view, I just had to congratulate you on that review. Very well explained, and certainly made me want to read it.
What makes somewhat plausible for me that Maria did not know of Kazuki beforehand and yet could perceive him as a saviour is that, as far as we were presented, the people who uses her box are taken inside there, so perhaps she could internalize feelings and thoughts unknowingly. Besides, as you said, she probably got to know the situation before letting Nana use her box, which would make this process even easier. If this happen to be the case, I'd be fine with it.
Yeah, I meant Kazuki. And for me it was always obvious that Maria and Nana met after the latter ran away, although it could also be the case that she knew Maria from somewhere before and told her about the stuff with Kazuki and his friend, therefore her disappearence would be directly linked with her (and her ex-boyfriend's?) use of Maria's box. (thus our little Maria would be left without another friend and searching for another box to use, and life would go on :( )
For an example of that kind of dialogue, there's some on pages 176 and 177 from the V5. I might have exaggerated a little on my demonstration, but it really bothers me when people start to explain the evil-plot like it's nothing, although it's important for the plot to go on.
When I said that about the Wish-Crushing Cinema, I was referring to the box itself. Showing the other side of facts, through the thoughts of someone you hold dear (or not), and realizing how you contributed to make them unhappy somehow when you're barely controlling all the sins you've gathered and that are trying to break free. An elegant attack, in my view. But I didn't like who ended up being the owner, although it made a lot of sense.
About what you said in V5 spoiler:
Maria certainly used her box on Nana before the Rejecting Classroom, but it doesn't have to mean she knew Kazuki. Nana disappeared with his friend whose name I don't remember (something like Touji, but this one is from Evangelion) and might have met Maria along the way, then it came all that O talked about Kazuki being seen (felt?) as a possible savior for her and this stuff. There's also the possibility she knew of him before and forgot after using her box, but I don't think he could forget her like that, since everybody talk about her outstanding beauty, so he probably didn't know her. That's how I see it.
I've finished the sixth book this afternoon. By doing so, I can affirm again something I said when we talked on lastfm: what matters is how an idea is used. And I think that Mikage 'mastered' his idea for the plot. Or at least, the idea of the boxes, for I am not sure I've come to understand the plot as you had declared to have. You see, I'm kind of a lazy thinker.Though I do get he tried to point out particurlarly how violence is an important factor which shapes us, I'm not sure how he wanted to use this information. Is it near what you thought about?
Anyway, having that said, there's another thing I want to re-affirm:
- I still have my problems with his writing style.
You see, during the Kingdom Royale books, it did not bother me that much. Considering the circunstances, it was enough to convey what was needed. I think it's kind of ironic, because these books were the highlight of the psychological aspect of Hakomari in my opinion. So, when Kazuki started to get grip of what his goal would become and change because of it, I found it acceptable.
However, when presented to the settings that would begin the Wish-Crushing Cinema, I found myself realizing again how we readers just have to accept somethings because the characters stated so. For exemple, Kazuki and Maria's bond, and eventually his obsession for her. Although I understand those are feelings that we, not being them, will never to comprehend in its entirety, I think there should have been more exposure of their bonding and all. Or maybe I'm just too skeptic and can't just swallow the fact that they've spent 'an entire lifetime together' as the reason, because it was supposed to be true only to Maria.
I was supposed to be able to give more exemples, but heck, I can't come with more, albeit I have just read the books. As I said before, sometimes my memory just betrays me. But to give more base to my position, I'll use as example the protagonist and narrators of Haruhi and Zaregoto. The settings are quite different, but both of them chew over the information presented, and we readers are presented to most of their process of thinking, which is certainly one of the most entertaining parts of psychological storys, in my opinion. However, Kazuki sometimes simplifies this process and come to conclusions too fast. When Daiya does so, it doesn't bother me that much because since the beggining he was shown to be really sharp, unlikely Kazuki.
I also wanted to use as an example a character I know that suffered basically the same change as Kazuki for the same goal, but in a much larger time-span presented to the readers. However, as I haven't finished watching the series, nor will I read more than the two books I already have due to lack of translation, I will abstain from talking about I don't know for experience, just heard about. And I'll refrain from saying which series I'm talking about for the fear of giving unwanted spoilers away :P
To finish my thoughts about the writing style topic, there were also a recurring situation that was kinda funny (and bothered me a lot at the same time): Kazuki thinks "oh, I can't understand that!", then someone whom he was talking to says "oh, as it seems you haven't understood..." and begins to explain. What the heck? Another situation: Kazuki uses his new ability in front of Haruaki, who obviously get stunned, and then Kazuki basically says "oh, btw, now I can do this". No, I can't accept these things XD
To sum up what I have been saying: he should have, in my opinion, written more.
But hey! I haven't come just to complain, haha. I was truly amazed how the boxes became more and more complex. I particularly found the Wish-Crushing Cinema very elegant. I think it was a shame we could not see everything that happened in every movie. I also thought that the opposing yet complementary nature of Kazuki's and O's was well constructed. I got sad when I realized that maybe 'Otonashi''s meaning does not hold that much significance, but I like to think it was not simply coincidence, so I'll wait, haha
Well, that's about everything I could come up to comment about at the moment. Do you have any information about the last book? And do you remember you told me you had found some minor plot-holes? Could you share them? :P
Oh no no no, Umineko's adaptation is absolutely outrageous. As a reader of the visual/doujin novels, it felt like a great torture. But aparently DEEN didn't become satisfied with it and decided to crush UBW (one of Fate Stay Night's arc) in front of me as well. I have my issues with this studio, but since I depend on them to have more MariMite in my life (which is quite decent, at least), I try to ignore these insults.
I had writen my answer earlier today, but goddamned cookies logged me out and made me lose it. So I decided to try answering again after finishing the second book. This might be long, be aware :P
Re-read the first two book was important mainly to perceive the dynamics of the characters' personalities and relationships. I remembered Kazuki was a feeble fellow, but not that he could take some harsh attitudes when necessary or realize when 0 had got infiltrated among the people involved with the actual problem. Nor was I reminded of Maria's selfless demeanor. Besides, I only knew of 0's interest to observe Kazuki, I had totally forgotten of his desire to hear the sound he may (?) make [not sure if he phrased like that]. Which is interesting, because he declared his lack of actual interest on Maria and Otonashi might be read as "lack of sound" (it was cool to realize that!).
I remember you saying how much you liked the first book. I still can't feel the same way, for I have been presented to the same kind of scenario sometimes before, as we discussed previously, and I have realized how... amateurish Mikage's writing styles is sometimes. Things are explained too directly, characters grasp and accept some bizarre situations too fast and the book is quite short. Besides, I think his writing style would suit visual novels much more than books. Any opinions on that?
As for the second book, I still think it wa quite "meh". The idea of taking Kazuki's hours is brilliant, but he couldn't use it as such. It was kinda obvious the involvement of one of the new characters on the matter.
I'm about to start the third novel, and I'm quite excited. I will continue focusing on the characters and on 0's ways of manipulation and interference. Is there anything else I should be paying more attention to? :)
>You mean they killed each other without giving much thought?
The game didn't really get into the killing part, but I'm sure they would kill each other when gave the chance, since there's no motive for not doing so.
>
Well, there could be various reasons for this, it's hard for those who are unfamiliar with the novel to chime in after all. I think if they observe a live example they'd be able to get the hang of it, ie., how to use deceptions, logic, deductions, etc. to their advantage.
For starters we could give tips for each class.
What you said just gave me a click: what if we put aditional roles based on the characters of the novel for every player, like this: Player A is the [Sorcerer] AND Kazuki.
Player B is [Revolutionary] AND Shindou. And so on..
And then, we put rules on each of these roles, like this:
-Kazuki can't kill, unless Maria is in risk of death. Kazuki wins if Maria is alive at the end of the game.
-Maria can't kill, regardless of her role. Maria wins if she's able to save someone from dying or every other player is alive at the end.
And so on...
Every player will know everyone's character role, but they wont know their game role.
i.e. player B is [The Double] and Maria. The other players know that he's Maria, but they don't know that he's [The Double].
Thanks for the suggestion! It would really help on the time zone matter, since this game has so many day parts and relies on time.
Though there's this problem: in the light novel, most of the players didn't want to kill someone. In this game here on the forum there's no motive for not killing people xD
And there's also the problem on what they will talk on the main thread and in the secret meetings... =/
But thanks a lot for your suggestion :) it solves the problem on the time zones, although we may have to have more than one hosts and people from the same or similar time zones wanting to play.
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Yeah, I meant Kazuki. And for me it was always obvious that Maria and Nana met after the latter ran away, although it could also be the case that she knew Maria from somewhere before and told her about the stuff with Kazuki and his friend, therefore her disappearence would be directly linked with her (and her ex-boyfriend's?) use of Maria's box. (thus our little Maria would be left without another friend and searching for another box to use, and life would go on :( )
When I said that about the Wish-Crushing Cinema, I was referring to the box itself. Showing the other side of facts, through the thoughts of someone you hold dear (or not), and realizing how you contributed to make them unhappy somehow when you're barely controlling all the sins you've gathered and that are trying to break free. An elegant attack, in my view. But I didn't like who ended up being the owner, although it made a lot of sense.
About what you said in V5 spoiler:
Anyway, having that said, there's another thing I want to re-affirm:
- I still have my problems with his writing style.
You see, during the Kingdom Royale books, it did not bother me that much. Considering the circunstances, it was enough to convey what was needed. I think it's kind of ironic, because these books were the highlight of the psychological aspect of Hakomari in my opinion. So, when Kazuki started to get grip of what his goal would become and change because of it, I found it acceptable.
However, when presented to the settings that would begin the Wish-Crushing Cinema, I found myself realizing again how we readers just have to accept somethings because the characters stated so. For exemple, Kazuki and Maria's bond, and eventually his obsession for her. Although I understand those are feelings that we, not being them, will never to comprehend in its entirety, I think there should have been more exposure of their bonding and all. Or maybe I'm just too skeptic and can't just swallow the fact that they've spent 'an entire lifetime together' as the reason, because it was supposed to be true only to Maria.
I was supposed to be able to give more exemples, but heck, I can't come with more, albeit I have just read the books. As I said before, sometimes my memory just betrays me. But to give more base to my position, I'll use as example the protagonist and narrators of Haruhi and Zaregoto. The settings are quite different, but both of them chew over the information presented, and we readers are presented to most of their process of thinking, which is certainly one of the most entertaining parts of psychological storys, in my opinion. However, Kazuki sometimes simplifies this process and come to conclusions too fast. When Daiya does so, it doesn't bother me that much because since the beggining he was shown to be really sharp, unlikely Kazuki.
I also wanted to use as an example a character I know that suffered basically the same change as Kazuki for the same goal, but in a much larger time-span presented to the readers. However, as I haven't finished watching the series, nor will I read more than the two books I already have due to lack of translation, I will abstain from talking about I don't know for experience, just heard about. And I'll refrain from saying which series I'm talking about for the fear of giving unwanted spoilers away :P
To finish my thoughts about the writing style topic, there were also a recurring situation that was kinda funny (and bothered me a lot at the same time): Kazuki thinks "oh, I can't understand that!", then someone whom he was talking to says "oh, as it seems you haven't understood..." and begins to explain. What the heck? Another situation: Kazuki uses his new ability in front of Haruaki, who obviously get stunned, and then Kazuki basically says "oh, btw, now I can do this". No, I can't accept these things XD
To sum up what I have been saying: he should have, in my opinion, written more.
But hey! I haven't come just to complain, haha. I was truly amazed how the boxes became more and more complex. I particularly found the Wish-Crushing Cinema very elegant. I think it was a shame we could not see everything that happened in every movie. I also thought that the opposing yet complementary nature of Kazuki's and O's was well constructed. I got sad when I realized that maybe 'Otonashi''s meaning does not hold that much significance, but I like to think it was not simply coincidence, so I'll wait, haha
Well, that's about everything I could come up to comment about at the moment. Do you have any information about the last book? And do you remember you told me you had found some minor plot-holes? Could you share them? :P
I had writen my answer earlier today, but goddamned cookies logged me out and made me lose it. So I decided to try answering again after finishing the second book. This might be long, be aware :P
Re-read the first two book was important mainly to perceive the dynamics of the characters' personalities and relationships. I remembered Kazuki was a feeble fellow, but not that he could take some harsh attitudes when necessary or realize when 0 had got infiltrated among the people involved with the actual problem. Nor was I reminded of Maria's selfless demeanor. Besides, I only knew of 0's interest to observe Kazuki, I had totally forgotten of his desire to hear the sound he may (?) make [not sure if he phrased like that]. Which is interesting, because he declared his lack of actual interest on Maria and Otonashi might be read as "lack of sound" (it was cool to realize that!).
I remember you saying how much you liked the first book. I still can't feel the same way, for I have been presented to the same kind of scenario sometimes before, as we discussed previously, and I have realized how... amateurish Mikage's writing styles is sometimes. Things are explained too directly, characters grasp and accept some bizarre situations too fast and the book is quite short. Besides, I think his writing style would suit visual novels much more than books. Any opinions on that?
As for the second book, I still think it wa quite "meh". The idea of taking Kazuki's hours is brilliant, but he couldn't use it as such. It was kinda obvious the involvement of one of the new characters on the matter.
I'm about to start the third novel, and I'm quite excited. I will continue focusing on the characters and on 0's ways of manipulation and interference. Is there anything else I should be paying more attention to? :)
'till next time o/
The game didn't really get into the killing part, but I'm sure they would kill each other when gave the chance, since there's no motive for not doing so.
>
What you said just gave me a click: what if we put aditional roles based on the characters of the novel for every player, like this: Player A is the [Sorcerer] AND Kazuki.
Player B is [Revolutionary] AND Shindou. And so on..
And then, we put rules on each of these roles, like this:
-Kazuki can't kill, unless Maria is in risk of death. Kazuki wins if Maria is alive at the end of the game.
-Maria can't kill, regardless of her role. Maria wins if she's able to save someone from dying or every other player is alive at the end.
And so on...
Every player will know everyone's character role, but they wont know their game role.
i.e. player B is [The Double] and Maria. The other players know that he's Maria, but they don't know that he's [The Double].
What do you think?
Though there's this problem: in the light novel, most of the players didn't want to kill someone. In this game here on the forum there's no motive for not killing people xD
And there's also the problem on what they will talk on the main thread and in the secret meetings... =/
But thanks a lot for your suggestion :) it solves the problem on the time zones, although we may have to have more than one hosts and people from the same or similar time zones wanting to play.