First, thanks for actually engaging with me in good faith. It's hard to have a nice discussion on the Internet these days. I hope our discussion doesn't end here, I really would like to know what you see in this series.
You should have mentioned your own review! I stumbled upon it when going through my own again.
Spoilers, for those who care about this sort of thing.
Disclaimer, I am going off my memories from roughly 4 years ago, if I say something factually incorrect about the story itself, please call me out on that.
1. On the point of space battles, I agree that since this is (science) fiction, the space battles do not need to be realistic. And as you mention, there are several realistic elements. One in particular that was exceptionally well done in my view is them using actual laser weapons, as we understand laser technology today - and not some weird glowy bullets. If I recall, even the explosions when shown from the vacuum of space are silent? Though I am not sure about the last part. Indeed, the battles are plenty realistic - lot of thought and care went into designing them. Given all this, it is just disappointing that such a basic element as not going up and down is not even addressed. My problem with the 2D-in-3D is that once you notice it, it's extremely jarring as it goes directly against the characterisation of our two leads at this point - Wen-Li and Reinhardt - as tactical geniuses. When a person who is objectively terrible at tactical thinking and planning (me) can see such a major flaw, then something is wrong with the story. Point being, When the element one is supposed to suspend their disbelief about something that directly clashes with characterisation, then I see it as an inherent flaw of the medium.
I will go one step further - even if there is an in-universe explanation for this (like the corridor being narrow or whatever), then in my view, it reflects even worse on the adaptation. This is because the actual reason was already in the source material - they wouldn't have had to explain it off as a malfunction of the Mumbojumbulator Drive, or Antimatter Exhaust fire or any other sci-fi MacGuffin, all it would take is a line or three of dialogue.
2. Regarding the "tell, not show" - I see your point. The narration is indeed dry as a historical record would be. I have nothing against this stylistic choice, as I have noted in my review. My problem is with the "foreshadowing" from the narrator. "You don't know it yet, but X is about to do Y, and this will have a huge impact." "X: Look Z, I am doing Y!" "Z: I cannot beleive X did Y!" in the span of a minute. If I recall, the Phrezzan leader and co. were especially guilty of that. But I will give you that one - it can be construed as a nitpick.
3. Now for the big one - Oberstein. I am not going to lie, I disliked Oberstein (which I suppose is by design) ever since his actions indirectly resulted in the death of Kircheis, which directly led to Reinhard's downfall. I may have disliked him, but I respected his pragmatism and intelligence. His character arc is an insult to both. I follow you up until "He probably had a lower opinion [...]". My point is that he was activelty self-sabotaging. Either he still irrationally hated the Empire, even after Reinhard took over and Oberstein wanted to see it fall, or he was bad at his job. The former is negated by his actions in the final episode. Iirc, he says that he always wanted the best for Reinhard and the Empire too (I think?) but that is objectively not true. Perhaps there were subtle signals that he was growing, and I failed to notice them. Man is hard to read, after all. I would also argue he charmed the heck out of Reinhard, who chose to trust him more than his actual best friend.
Oberstein being hated was an inefficient approach. I can't remember exactly the circumstances of Reuenthal's betrayal, but wasn't that also due to Oberstein's meddling? Reuenthal was a great asset to the Empire, and Oberstein was again responsible for the loss of a key person around Reinhard, which again negatively affected the latter. At this point, he is a liability. While he may ne the necessary evil of the Empire, it feels like he has had more impactful misses than hits. We can consider his greates character flaw his self-loathing, but that would mean he is overly emotional and isn't smart enough to keep his emotions in check. But at the same time we know he can bottle them in, shown by his outwardly cold demeanor and due to his post when Reinhard first meets him - a contradiction. It would mean that Oberstein, while calm on the outside, impusively takes the wrong course of action, because somebody slighted him.
My question to you would be, do you think Oberstein still hated the "new" empire after Reinhard took power? He shouldn't have any reason to - it's the same in the name only. The old guard was gone at that point. Am I thinking too highly of him and having too high expectations of him? Your description of Oberstein in the reply was pretty surface-level, but you clearly put a lot of thought in trying to understand him. I hope you could share that insight with me. I would also like to hear you address the Alliance's circumstances in the latter parts of the series, as well as your opinions on Reuhental's going through with his betrayal and justifying it with his "pride."
To sum up, while I agree that the narration aspect was a nitpick (I really wanted to use the phrase "tell, don't show" in context at some point), the other points mentioned above negatively affected my enjoyment of the series. They overshadowed the good points and made me not take the show seriously. Possibly even not with the respect and patience that the story deserved.
I am looking forward to your reply!
P.S. Is Die Neue These worth giving a shot? Would watching it fix some of my misunderstandings?
Frieren is a perfect masterpiece and vastly superior than all the shows you prefer in every single aspect. One day you will understand flawless art when you see one.
All Comments (3) Comments
You should have mentioned your own review! I stumbled upon it when going through my own again.
Spoilers, for those who care about this sort of thing.
Disclaimer, I am going off my memories from roughly 4 years ago, if I say something factually incorrect about the story itself, please call me out on that.
1. On the point of space battles, I agree that since this is (science) fiction, the space battles do not need to be realistic. And as you mention, there are several realistic elements. One in particular that was exceptionally well done in my view is them using actual laser weapons, as we understand laser technology today - and not some weird glowy bullets. If I recall, even the explosions when shown from the vacuum of space are silent? Though I am not sure about the last part. Indeed, the battles are plenty realistic - lot of thought and care went into designing them. Given all this, it is just disappointing that such a basic element as not going up and down is not even addressed. My problem with the 2D-in-3D is that once you notice it, it's extremely jarring as it goes directly against the characterisation of our two leads at this point - Wen-Li and Reinhardt - as tactical geniuses. When a person who is objectively terrible at tactical thinking and planning (me) can see such a major flaw, then something is wrong with the story. Point being, When the element one is supposed to suspend their disbelief about something that directly clashes with characterisation, then I see it as an inherent flaw of the medium.
I will go one step further - even if there is an in-universe explanation for this (like the corridor being narrow or whatever), then in my view, it reflects even worse on the adaptation. This is because the actual reason was already in the source material - they wouldn't have had to explain it off as a malfunction of the Mumbojumbulator Drive, or Antimatter Exhaust fire or any other sci-fi MacGuffin, all it would take is a line or three of dialogue.
2. Regarding the "tell, not show" - I see your point. The narration is indeed dry as a historical record would be. I have nothing against this stylistic choice, as I have noted in my review. My problem is with the "foreshadowing" from the narrator. "You don't know it yet, but X is about to do Y, and this will have a huge impact." "X: Look Z, I am doing Y!" "Z: I cannot beleive X did Y!" in the span of a minute. If I recall, the Phrezzan leader and co. were especially guilty of that. But I will give you that one - it can be construed as a nitpick.
3. Now for the big one - Oberstein. I am not going to lie, I disliked Oberstein (which I suppose is by design) ever since his actions indirectly resulted in the death of Kircheis, which directly led to Reinhard's downfall. I may have disliked him, but I respected his pragmatism and intelligence. His character arc is an insult to both. I follow you up until "He probably had a lower opinion [...]". My point is that he was activelty self-sabotaging. Either he still irrationally hated the Empire, even after Reinhard took over and Oberstein wanted to see it fall, or he was bad at his job. The former is negated by his actions in the final episode. Iirc, he says that he always wanted the best for Reinhard and the Empire too (I think?) but that is objectively not true. Perhaps there were subtle signals that he was growing, and I failed to notice them. Man is hard to read, after all. I would also argue he charmed the heck out of Reinhard, who chose to trust him more than his actual best friend.
Oberstein being hated was an inefficient approach. I can't remember exactly the circumstances of Reuenthal's betrayal, but wasn't that also due to Oberstein's meddling? Reuenthal was a great asset to the Empire, and Oberstein was again responsible for the loss of a key person around Reinhard, which again negatively affected the latter. At this point, he is a liability. While he may ne the necessary evil of the Empire, it feels like he has had more impactful misses than hits. We can consider his greates character flaw his self-loathing, but that would mean he is overly emotional and isn't smart enough to keep his emotions in check. But at the same time we know he can bottle them in, shown by his outwardly cold demeanor and due to his post when Reinhard first meets him - a contradiction. It would mean that Oberstein, while calm on the outside, impusively takes the wrong course of action, because somebody slighted him.
My question to you would be, do you think Oberstein still hated the "new" empire after Reinhard took power? He shouldn't have any reason to - it's the same in the name only. The old guard was gone at that point. Am I thinking too highly of him and having too high expectations of him? Your description of Oberstein in the reply was pretty surface-level, but you clearly put a lot of thought in trying to understand him. I hope you could share that insight with me. I would also like to hear you address the Alliance's circumstances in the latter parts of the series, as well as your opinions on Reuhental's going through with his betrayal and justifying it with his "pride."
To sum up, while I agree that the narration aspect was a nitpick (I really wanted to use the phrase "tell, don't show" in context at some point), the other points mentioned above negatively affected my enjoyment of the series. They overshadowed the good points and made me not take the show seriously. Possibly even not with the respect and patience that the story deserved.
I am looking forward to your reply!
P.S. Is Die Neue These worth giving a shot? Would watching it fix some of my misunderstandings?