Awww, but I like being smug! It distracts people from my thinly-concealed self-hatred.
Black Butler's Grell is a psychotic murderer, so I don't think she gets Inclusion points, even if she is pretty. And I understand the Crying Game has a man respond to finding out the trans woman's physical sex through violent vomiting, which doesn't put it much higher than Ace Venture or even freakin' Family Guy. Seriously the, "You have a dong, and are therefore disgusting even though I found you hot five seconds ago" gag has been run into the ground so hard, it's pierced the planet and come out the other side.
I wasn't aware Stein's Gate has a trans woman, however! I very much enjoyed the first episode, so I may need to rush that series to the top of my To Watch list. Thanks for the recs, though. I may need to check out Tokyo Godfathers and Saga.
Honestly, William Dafoe's character not getting more cross-dressing scenes can probably be chocked up to the fact that he's not the main character, and therefore, doesn't get a whole buttload of screen-time.
Little bummed that Bulat doesn't fit the bill for what you're seeking, but I hadn't really noticed the "Gays must be either hyper-masculine or creepily feminine," thing in anime. Guess it shouldn't be surprising. The Effeminate Gay and the Macho Gay are probably the two most obvious gay stereotypes in our culture.
Akame ga Kill! is an action-centered series with a character named Bulat. Bulat is openly gay, heroic, one of the most powerful characters in the series, AND ATTRACTIVE. As long as you don't mind his slightly stupid looking hair.
Transgender women in media exist? Really!? *looks over shoulders repeatedly* Uh... where? The only example of an out and out trans woman I can think of is the film Gaudi Afternoon. It features a trans woman and a trans man couple, both of whom are kind of dumb-asses, a gay guy who kidnaps a child and a lesbian who's a pretentious bitch. Oh, and trans woman gets her wig ripped off at one point for humiliation and comedy! So bonus points for that. It's not like any trans women have natural, long hair or anything. I think the only saving grace in terms of representation is that the straight people are also assholes.
I blame homophobia for this weird "Naked women are sexy, naked men are repulsive" rule. Straight men have to be disgusted by male butts, because if they're not, that means they might be gay, and their entire sexual identity will be shattered, and... they'lll... have learned something about themselves and their own desires? Which would be... terrible? I don't even know. Media gets a lot more topless men than women, but that's little consolation.
Did you ever catch Boondock Saints, by chance? It's got a gay cross-dressing detective who's actually pretty heroic. Kind of a dick, but still a competent and successful detective.
Yeah, it's pretty hard to find portrayals of gay people in anime that don't have some snag. It's not made clear if Cowboy Bebop's Gren was gay before the treatment, but the fact that he's a gay guy who also happens to have undergone an operation that turned his body artificially hyper-feminine is... a bit unfortunate.
It's honestly hard to find progressive pop culture portrayals of gay people or trans people or women that aren't harmed by some cliche or just general stupidity. I have similar feelings about Yuri Sakazaki from the King of Fighters series, though applied to feminism rather than gay representation.
In short, Yuri is a former Damsel in Distress who decides she's sick of being a victim. She demands that her father train her in martial arts so she can defend herself. Her father is reluctant about this, and deliberately withholds information about the style, limiting Yuri to low-level techniques, but Yuri compensates by creating her own techniques to complement her style. Her outfit, which consists of a gi top, tights and sneakers, is one of the most practical and least sexual outfits of any female character in fighting games. Yuri is optimistic and confident, and a competent martial artist who is generally considered a mid to high-tier characters by professional players.
The downside? S.N.K, the company who created Yuri, put in an Easter egg where if you knock Yuri out with a particular move, it shreds her clothing and bares her breasts. Because what good is a strong women if you can't sexually assault her? S.N.K implemented this feature for female characters in most of their games, actually.
But hey, at least Street Fighter gave us a transsexual character! Who's an ex street thug, attacks with dominatrix moves and isn't even confirmed to be transsexual by Capcom. Shit.
Hey, sorry I didn't get back sooner. I've been insanely busy.
Cowboy Bebop has Gren, who, if I recall, was HEAVILY implied to be gay (flat out says he's not into girls). He's attractive, cool, confident, a skilled musician and doesn't think twice about risking his life fighting against one of the scariest villains in the entire series.
The downside? Welp... he's the victim of an experimental drug that screwed with his estrogen levels, causing him to grow boobs. And he only gets to appear in one episode.
Still, that might satisfy the "positively-portrayed and attractive gay guy in an action series" criteria you were looking for.
I totally get what you're saying about the whole Speed-O-Sound scene. The writers manipulated the whole scene by making Puri as disgusting as possible, thus framing gay men as a whole as disgusting. I was merely being a bit tongue-in-cheek.
It sounds like you have some very specific desires in gay-inclusion in media. I don't think that's a bad thing, but I do think that's definitely going to make finding stuff you like harder. So uh... maybe print out a web comic? And then make a flip-book so it's like it's animated?
I'll try to come up with better ideas tomorrow, when it's not 11 at night where I am, lol. My own solution to lack of inclusion in media was to be a writer. That way I can make stuff that's as inclusive and progressive and action-packed as I like.
I'm no stranger to depression, my friend. Trying to stay positive and talking to people about it is the best thing we can do. :)
I can't really blame you for not being feminist. We get kind of a bad rep, and I won't deny that there are some pretty nutty feminists out there.
I also can't blame Speed-O-Sound for being disgusted with Puri-Puri Prisoner, honestly, because Puri-Puri Prisoner is pretty disgusting. You know, what with the rape and fish-lips and all. Seriously though, I get what your saying. Japan kinda sucks at handing gay people, especially gay men. Lesbians sort of almost get a pass for the fetishism, but even gay women in anime are mostly confined to the kind of ambiguous/merely implied stuff you're talking about with Jojo's.
From what I've heard, yaoi manga has a lot of rapey stuff and general stupidity and tends to be aimed at girls, so I'm not really surprised that you're having trouble finding stuff you like. Maybe I'm more satisfied by inclusion because my standards are lower? I mean, I gave Sakura Trick an 8 out of 10, and Sakura Trick is pretty stupid. Stupid in a funny, cute and sexy way, but still stupid.
If you got annoyed with Code Geass's fetishism in the first three episodes, then HOLY CRAP you dodged a bullet. Season 2 ratchets up the creepy fanservice to absurd levels and basically goes out of its way to degrade every interesting and strong female character it had. Lelouch's victory at chess probably wouldn't have bothered me much if he had actually been using legal moves, since it established Lelouch's cleverness. Plus, it was kind of justified by his opponent being stupidly arrogant.
Ah! My Goddess? Yeaaaah, I dropped that shit after the first episode, lol. Very nearly one of the stupidest shows I've ever seen. Had a review on here a while back, but it got deleted because I hadn't watch the required number of eps, and I wasn't willing to drag myself through another episode.
Maybe if you want gay-inclusive stuff, you're better off looking at other genres or mediums? There's quite a few good LGBT webcomics out there. I'm currently reading a silly lesbian comic called Girly that's pretty fun.
Dang, you're grumpier than I am! And my forum avatar is a serial killer with saying the word, 'mother-fucker'!
I'm just joking here, no offense met. I have no problem with friends who have different tastes than me, and I will admit that Ghibli is a bit of a scared cow. I completely forgot about the gay dude in FMA, honestly. It's been years since I watched it.
PJ isn't perfect about inclusion, I'll admit, but I found it a heck of a lot better than most shows. I also dug that the female characters showed a variety of body shapes and that the heroine didn't need to sport a pair of watermelons or flawless skin.
...Sorry, I'm being a feminist right now.
I do get annoyed by characters not being allowed to be explicitly gay. I have a running joke I make to friends: "If One Punch Man Season 2 makes Saitama X Genos canon, I will forgive everything." The 'not allowed to be gay' thing is also one of the reasons I found K-on! unsatisfying. Seriously, it's obvious that every girl in the show is gayer than a unicorn munching bubble-gum flavored doritos, but nobody is allowed to be explicitly lesbian. Also was annoyed by Nana when the two girls ended up being straight despite how bi they acted the entire show.
Also, saw you gave Code Geass a 1 out of 10, and I gotta say, I don't blame you. I had high hopes for the series in its exploration of war and racism, but the longer I watch it, the more it pisses me off. I do think it has some good points, but the fanservice, dialogue and art are all god-awful.
I do hope you find some stuff you like eventually. I took me a LONG time to find more than a handful of series I like.
Sorry to hear you got banned, but glad to see you're back!
Welp, it sounds like you've watched a LOT more anime than me, lol. I love most Ghibli stuff (who doesn't, really?) and I caught Akira not too long ago, and really enjoyed it. I missed most Shonen series, because they simply didn't interest me much, but what I remember of the original Dragon Ball and FMA were pretty great. I'm planning to rewatch FMA from start to finish pretty soon (after I wrap up Geass and watch His and Her Circumstances, probably).
Finding good anime is definitely tough, even without all the inclusion problems. As much as I enjoyed One Punch Man, the only gay character in the show is a prison-rapist with giant lips who gets naked in combat. Not exactly great representation there.
That said, it can be nice when you find a show that does speak to you. Princess Jellyfish and Ouran High School Host Club both have positive portrayals of cross-dressers. Not out and out trans people, sadly, but better than nothing when you're someone like me. Especially since Princess Jellyfish has a really sweet romance between a girl and cross-dressing man that is so close to being lesbian, the couple are straight-up mistaken for lesbians at one point. The fact that guy is more feminine than the girl also serves as nice a little breaking of gender norms. Ouran is... a bit less progressive, sadly. What with the 'anti-lesbian' episode basically portraying lesbians as rapist-Nazis (yeah, I know) and having a VERY rapey scene out of nowhere in the beach episode. Still, it pokes fun at a lot of shoujo tropes, including yaoi-twincest, it had a girl-on-girl kiss that was played as not horrifying, and it was a pretty fun watch.
I'm rambling a bit here... sorry about that, lol. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that finding good shows makes the bad shows worth it. Kind of like people in the anime community, actually. Being a woman in this community is already a mark against you, let alone being feminist or trans. You basically gotta shrug off all the haters and find people who aren't jerks. I've been pretty lucky in that, thankfully.
Heya KurosVicky. I liked that you drew attention to the lack of respectable/developed gay men in action anime in that last thread. It takes guts to write something like that it this community... not that it should. Honestly, I cringe every time I go on the forums. Progressive-minded people are hard to come by on here, and it's easy to feel jaded.
So, what got you started on anime, if I might ask? Personally, I started out on Pokemon and Digimon, grew out of it, spent about a decade thinking anime sucked, then discovered Cowboy Bebop.
From what I understood, Jojo plays the super GAR+gay jokes card hard. It can totally be done right, lots of old anime were actually good at this (Ranma 1/2, City Hunter), but I'd have to see it first to believe it (^:
You don't get it. I'm not suggesting it to you because it has lesbians (it actually has gay dudes too but whatever), I'm suggesting it to you because it's good. The fact that it portrays homosexuality (of both sides) in a way that isn't judgmental is just a bonus.
Nothing, but at least you get some homosexuality-related stuff that won't make you want to jump from a bridge, and it'll be healthier than getting mad at those idiots :3
All Comments (26) Comments
Black Butler's Grell is a psychotic murderer, so I don't think she gets Inclusion points, even if she is pretty. And I understand the Crying Game has a man respond to finding out the trans woman's physical sex through violent vomiting, which doesn't put it much higher than Ace Venture or even freakin' Family Guy. Seriously the, "You have a dong, and are therefore disgusting even though I found you hot five seconds ago" gag has been run into the ground so hard, it's pierced the planet and come out the other side.
I wasn't aware Stein's Gate has a trans woman, however! I very much enjoyed the first episode, so I may need to rush that series to the top of my To Watch list. Thanks for the recs, though. I may need to check out Tokyo Godfathers and Saga.
Honestly, William Dafoe's character not getting more cross-dressing scenes can probably be chocked up to the fact that he's not the main character, and therefore, doesn't get a whole buttload of screen-time.
Little bummed that Bulat doesn't fit the bill for what you're seeking, but I hadn't really noticed the "Gays must be either hyper-masculine or creepily feminine," thing in anime. Guess it shouldn't be surprising. The Effeminate Gay and the Macho Gay are probably the two most obvious gay stereotypes in our culture.
Akame ga Kill! is an action-centered series with a character named Bulat. Bulat is openly gay, heroic, one of the most powerful characters in the series, AND ATTRACTIVE. As long as you don't mind his slightly stupid looking hair.
...Do I get a cookie now?
I blame homophobia for this weird "Naked women are sexy, naked men are repulsive" rule. Straight men have to be disgusted by male butts, because if they're not, that means they might be gay, and their entire sexual identity will be shattered, and... they'lll... have learned something about themselves and their own desires? Which would be... terrible? I don't even know. Media gets a lot more topless men than women, but that's little consolation.
Did you ever catch Boondock Saints, by chance? It's got a gay cross-dressing detective who's actually pretty heroic. Kind of a dick, but still a competent and successful detective.
It's honestly hard to find progressive pop culture portrayals of gay people or trans people or women that aren't harmed by some cliche or just general stupidity. I have similar feelings about Yuri Sakazaki from the King of Fighters series, though applied to feminism rather than gay representation.
In short, Yuri is a former Damsel in Distress who decides she's sick of being a victim. She demands that her father train her in martial arts so she can defend herself. Her father is reluctant about this, and deliberately withholds information about the style, limiting Yuri to low-level techniques, but Yuri compensates by creating her own techniques to complement her style. Her outfit, which consists of a gi top, tights and sneakers, is one of the most practical and least sexual outfits of any female character in fighting games. Yuri is optimistic and confident, and a competent martial artist who is generally considered a mid to high-tier characters by professional players.
The downside? S.N.K, the company who created Yuri, put in an Easter egg where if you knock Yuri out with a particular move, it shreds her clothing and bares her breasts. Because what good is a strong women if you can't sexually assault her? S.N.K implemented this feature for female characters in most of their games, actually.
But hey, at least Street Fighter gave us a transsexual character! Who's an ex street thug, attacks with dominatrix moves and isn't even confirmed to be transsexual by Capcom. Shit.
Cowboy Bebop has Gren, who, if I recall, was HEAVILY implied to be gay (flat out says he's not into girls). He's attractive, cool, confident, a skilled musician and doesn't think twice about risking his life fighting against one of the scariest villains in the entire series.
The downside? Welp... he's the victim of an experimental drug that screwed with his estrogen levels, causing him to grow boobs. And he only gets to appear in one episode.
Still, that might satisfy the "positively-portrayed and attractive gay guy in an action series" criteria you were looking for.
It sounds like you have some very specific desires in gay-inclusion in media. I don't think that's a bad thing, but I do think that's definitely going to make finding stuff you like harder. So uh... maybe print out a web comic? And then make a flip-book so it's like it's animated?
I'll try to come up with better ideas tomorrow, when it's not 11 at night where I am, lol. My own solution to lack of inclusion in media was to be a writer. That way I can make stuff that's as inclusive and progressive and action-packed as I like.
I can't really blame you for not being feminist. We get kind of a bad rep, and I won't deny that there are some pretty nutty feminists out there.
I also can't blame Speed-O-Sound for being disgusted with Puri-Puri Prisoner, honestly, because Puri-Puri Prisoner is pretty disgusting. You know, what with the rape and fish-lips and all. Seriously though, I get what your saying. Japan kinda sucks at handing gay people, especially gay men. Lesbians sort of almost get a pass for the fetishism, but even gay women in anime are mostly confined to the kind of ambiguous/merely implied stuff you're talking about with Jojo's.
From what I've heard, yaoi manga has a lot of rapey stuff and general stupidity and tends to be aimed at girls, so I'm not really surprised that you're having trouble finding stuff you like. Maybe I'm more satisfied by inclusion because my standards are lower? I mean, I gave Sakura Trick an 8 out of 10, and Sakura Trick is pretty stupid. Stupid in a funny, cute and sexy way, but still stupid.
If you got annoyed with Code Geass's fetishism in the first three episodes, then HOLY CRAP you dodged a bullet. Season 2 ratchets up the creepy fanservice to absurd levels and basically goes out of its way to degrade every interesting and strong female character it had. Lelouch's victory at chess probably wouldn't have bothered me much if he had actually been using legal moves, since it established Lelouch's cleverness. Plus, it was kind of justified by his opponent being stupidly arrogant.
Ah! My Goddess? Yeaaaah, I dropped that shit after the first episode, lol. Very nearly one of the stupidest shows I've ever seen. Had a review on here a while back, but it got deleted because I hadn't watch the required number of eps, and I wasn't willing to drag myself through another episode.
Maybe if you want gay-inclusive stuff, you're better off looking at other genres or mediums? There's quite a few good LGBT webcomics out there. I'm currently reading a silly lesbian comic called Girly that's pretty fun.
I'm just joking here, no offense met. I have no problem with friends who have different tastes than me, and I will admit that Ghibli is a bit of a scared cow. I completely forgot about the gay dude in FMA, honestly. It's been years since I watched it.
PJ isn't perfect about inclusion, I'll admit, but I found it a heck of a lot better than most shows. I also dug that the female characters showed a variety of body shapes and that the heroine didn't need to sport a pair of watermelons or flawless skin.
...Sorry, I'm being a feminist right now.
I do get annoyed by characters not being allowed to be explicitly gay. I have a running joke I make to friends: "If One Punch Man Season 2 makes Saitama X Genos canon, I will forgive everything." The 'not allowed to be gay' thing is also one of the reasons I found K-on! unsatisfying. Seriously, it's obvious that every girl in the show is gayer than a unicorn munching bubble-gum flavored doritos, but nobody is allowed to be explicitly lesbian. Also was annoyed by Nana when the two girls ended up being straight despite how bi they acted the entire show.
Also, saw you gave Code Geass a 1 out of 10, and I gotta say, I don't blame you. I had high hopes for the series in its exploration of war and racism, but the longer I watch it, the more it pisses me off. I do think it has some good points, but the fanservice, dialogue and art are all god-awful.
I do hope you find some stuff you like eventually. I took me a LONG time to find more than a handful of series I like.
Welp, it sounds like you've watched a LOT more anime than me, lol. I love most Ghibli stuff (who doesn't, really?) and I caught Akira not too long ago, and really enjoyed it. I missed most Shonen series, because they simply didn't interest me much, but what I remember of the original Dragon Ball and FMA were pretty great. I'm planning to rewatch FMA from start to finish pretty soon (after I wrap up Geass and watch His and Her Circumstances, probably).
Finding good anime is definitely tough, even without all the inclusion problems. As much as I enjoyed One Punch Man, the only gay character in the show is a prison-rapist with giant lips who gets naked in combat. Not exactly great representation there.
That said, it can be nice when you find a show that does speak to you. Princess Jellyfish and Ouran High School Host Club both have positive portrayals of cross-dressers. Not out and out trans people, sadly, but better than nothing when you're someone like me. Especially since Princess Jellyfish has a really sweet romance between a girl and cross-dressing man that is so close to being lesbian, the couple are straight-up mistaken for lesbians at one point. The fact that guy is more feminine than the girl also serves as nice a little breaking of gender norms. Ouran is... a bit less progressive, sadly. What with the 'anti-lesbian' episode basically portraying lesbians as rapist-Nazis (yeah, I know) and having a VERY rapey scene out of nowhere in the beach episode. Still, it pokes fun at a lot of shoujo tropes, including yaoi-twincest, it had a girl-on-girl kiss that was played as not horrifying, and it was a pretty fun watch.
I'm rambling a bit here... sorry about that, lol. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that finding good shows makes the bad shows worth it. Kind of like people in the anime community, actually. Being a woman in this community is already a mark against you, let alone being feminist or trans. You basically gotta shrug off all the haters and find people who aren't jerks. I've been pretty lucky in that, thankfully.
So, what got you started on anime, if I might ask? Personally, I started out on Pokemon and Digimon, grew out of it, spent about a decade thinking anime sucked, then discovered Cowboy Bebop.