Yeah I definitely have said all I have to say on Re:Zero and you have made me think about a very average show way more than I ever normally would. I'd keep arguing I've addressed your points though you apparently disagree, but I'm not going to go back and forth with you forever on this because there are clearly some barriers preventing effective communication here. So I won't be responding to any more of your Re:Zero-related comments.
Falling in love at first sight is definition flimsy. Don't need a reason to love someone? Then I don't need a reason to care about him loving someone and thus don't need a reason to care about anything else that happens in this show. It's just lazy writing as far as I'm concerned.
For real though this whole discussion is pointless. I've already addressed multiple times all the points you're saying I won't address and you're trying to convince me the thoughts and feelings I had as I was watching the show were wrong. Even supposing I missed out on a whole bunch of subtle and intricate theoretical details masterfully laid out by the author that would have made me like the show, I didn't pick up on that shit and the result was a bad show from my perspective. Even if you go back and tell me all the intricate details (which honestly I feel like you and everyone else are pulling out of their asses or that the "subtle" details just make the show dumber), the experience I had watching the show isn't going to change. Normally, I'd say I could be convinced to rewatch a show, but considering the thought of doing so for R:Z makes me want die inside a little there's no way. Maybe 10 or 20 years from now I'll think about it but I hope future me is smarter than that.
Yeah I'm not saying all those people are "obsessed" with Subaru, just that they give him what feels like unnatural attention. And at the risk of going down the same rabbit hole we've been down 10 times, I realize there are "reasons" written into the show for that attention. The end result is the thing I was talking about in my review.
Yeah the message of Re:Zero definitely can't be "being a badass and overcoming all the obstacles" because it has to be about needlessly suffering instead... much more fun to watch.
As for why I find your point flimsy:
1) he loves Emilia
He barely met her at the time he commits to everything
2) Emilia saved him previously
OK, save her once and call it even
3) He wants to be more like Natsuki Kenichi’s son
This feels like it was thrown in as an afterthought to everything else along with the forced trial shit
4) he can do something about it
So? Lot of people dying he could save.
All of these are fine reasons if it were a low-cost act to help her, but he really is all-in on this for these reasons which yeah I find to be flimsy.
>It's not about "helping me move on" it's moreso showing that none of these characters you say that you think are major are not obsessed with Subaru. You keep avoiding the question of specifying who you think these main characters are and then say "the top 10 or so most relevant characters"...like who are these characters?
something like 1) Emilia 2) Rem (love interests) 3) Garfiel 4) Otto (best buddies) 5) Echidna 6) Roswaal 7) Satella (obsessed with him or his powers) 8,9,10 whoever.
>Not wanting to die isn’t illogical even if you have the power of Rbd.
No, this entire paragraph you just posted was extremely illogical because he *can't* die with his superpower (unless you're talking about the pain which is EXACTLY the reason for the cyanide pill). I'll take your point that there exists some reason that Subaru doesn't have a magical cyanide pill, but the reason is worse than the lack of pill itself. It's crazy to me to have a superpower that would allow him to build whatever future he wanted and save everyone he cares about, but to refrain from using it because it would "not be showing himself love". THAT is the real reason there is any plot at all to this show???? because he thinks it is wrong (for an incredibly illogical, emotional reason) to use his superpower to just fix everything? Somehow you're making me think less of the show.
And yeah I understood Subaru's reasons well enough. I'm saying they're flimsy considering all the shit he goes through.
>Not really. I brought up in which ways Ryuzu was involved in the plot and you just dismissed it as you don't think she's major. I also provided similar reasons to Crusch and Anastasia. Same thing with Meili and Elsa who are the antagonists. You also dismissed Otto because he is "apparently obsessed with Subaru" because he takes mistreatment from Subaru and still wants to be friends with him when I pointed out that it's a running joke in the series and that everyone picks on Otto. Just because Otto doesn't laugh along doesn't mean that Otto isn't in on the joke. You haven't really provided any reasoning as to why you feel the characters are minor or major other than you "felt like it" at least to me. Who are the major characters to you then? Only Subaru and Emilia? Then by definition "all characters are obsessed with Subaru" would be correct (lumping in romantic interests as well). It's why I brought it up - to show that you don't really have a legitimate reason apart from how you feel to categorize them as major or minor when there are elements in the narrative that decides how major or minor a character is such as how involved in the plot they are.
OK if will help you move on, let's just say out of the top 10 or so most relevant characters, most of them are either obsessed with his power, see him as a romantic interest, or want to be his best friend.
>You're making the assumption here that Subaru will foresee him being brutally murdered and that he will take a pill before he gets murdered when I explained that he will try to the best of his abilities NOT to get murdered. Even if he's about to die he's not going to take the cyanide pill. Taking a cyanide pill to kill yourself is not rational at all. The main contention here is "why doesn't Subaru have a magic cyanide pill to kill himself?" which isn't really a plot hole and is explained by the narrative anyway, so yeah not really a plot hole. It would be inconsistent with Subaru's character growth if he were to flip-flop and consider suicide.
I just have to point out how silly in my opinion that he even considers suicide to be bad. For example, if Emilia were killed in front of him, but he was otherwise going to get past the RbD time limit, wouldn't he want to kill himself before she stays dead forever? She's the whole reason he has been going through ANY of this shit, so it seems like suicide should always at least be on the table for him as an option. It makes perfect sense to me to have a way to hit the reset button as soon as something unacceptable happens in his current timeline or if he thinks about things for one second and realizes he is for sure about to be brutally murdered (it is very common that he knows in advance so not much of an assumption). But seriously seems *very* obvious to me. There's no way you're going to convince me that he shouldn't commit suicide because of respecting himself or anything like that. It's grossly illogical.
>Okay, why was Subaru a poorly written character? You said it yourself that a character can be annoying but interesting but you never really provided reasons as to why Subaru is a poorly written character. If you're not using any reasons or facts from the show to make an informed decision about a character that completely delegitimizes your review. Shinji is an annoying brat in Evangelion and I didn't like him at all but that doesn't mean Evangelion is bad or that Shinji is a poorly written character. I predict you'll say here that the show doesn't only revolve around Shinji but the same applies with Subaru in that it also explores the mentality and motivations of other characters such as Beatrice and Emilia. I mean you say Subaru should be a god amongst men but him being like that WOULD be wish-fulfillment in that he'd stop being the stupid awkward person that he is. You can't simultaneously this is wish fulfillment and then also want Subaru to be a "god amongst men".
I can simultaneously call the show wish-fulfilment and find it to be bad writing that he isn't better at accomplishing the fantasy. I don't necessarily think that the show would be better if Subaru were a genius who tackles all his problems perfectly, but I know that it is at least frustrating to watch him be terrible. In my review I said that the show is bad IF you don't like Subaru, not that you were wrong to do so or anything of that sort. Aside from his personality and dumb choices, I'll give the probable biggest reason I find him to be a poorly written character and it is his entire motivation for doing anything in the show. He literally met Emilia and within a few episodes fell so deeply in love with her that he has suddenly been willing to endure any and all manner of torture and suffering and see hell itself just to make her smile or whatever. It's weak at best imo. Going to extreme lengths for the girl happens all the time (and usually the whole plot isn't because of it), but rarely are they the lengths Subaru is going and usually the relationship is a little more than a childish infatuation
>But how does that work then? You're saying that there's no objective method in determining how minor or major a character is other than your own subjective reasoning. This has no relevance to what I said. You say it's episode count & line count and I brought up the episode count and you just move the goalpost into you deciding for yourself whats minor or not.
Of course there is no method of this aside from cases where there are objective main characters like Subaru who are definite not minor or maybe the author saying who is minor vs major. It is a spectrum of how "significant" characters are and where you draw the threshold is subjective. I'm saying those characters are not significant enough for me to consider them major characters or to weight their thoughts/actions as heavily as I do major characters. This is not complicated and feels like you're looking for anything to argue about.
>You also brought up plot holes In your original review but you never really expanded what the plot holes were. Would killing himself not be suffering? That's why he doesn't do it cause he doesn't want to kill himself. He just doesn't want to die. He said the hell line BECAUSE he was intentionally going to kill himself later in that route and now he's stopped that line of thinking. You have a big issue with that line so it should be good now that he wants to stop his own suffering and saying that only he's the one that needs to suffer.
Maybe killing himself is suffering, but if there is a way to kill yourself with less suffering involved than being brutally murdered, then that is the point of the magic cyanide. Again, not complicated. If you have a super power where you die a lot, then this would be high priority for a rational character in a well-written show.
>The point is that the character was written that way intentionally so he could have some sort of redemption arc. Your main point was how he doesn't use his powers more intelligently which I addressed and later that he's cringe and unlikeable. I've shown you how he's improved and that he was first intentionally made to be cringe and unlikeable. Why is he a zero and not say, a sixty then? We've seen Subaru's backstory also in S1E04 although not as detailed so I don't really understand how it's forced since it's already been foreshadowed. Also, what do you mean by "bad"? As in a bad person or as in a poorly written character? It's also just not the trials that showed Subaru's growth but the confession with Emilia and Rem in S1 that also showcase his growth. Is that also forced then?
Bad as in Subaru was a bad character in season 1. I won't say all the growth was forced, but the trial definitely was. My point here was almost entirely just my perception of Subaru and how I, as a viewer, felt about him. You can give him a 60 or a 100 or whatever, but for me, he still isn't even 0 to be honest and I don't actually need reasons or facts from the show to justify that.
>So line count determines how major or minor a character is? Surely you can see the fallacy in this. Is Satella a minor character then? Ram too? What line count determines how major/minor a character is? There's varying levels of how major or minor a character is as well. Also, for Felt, Julius, Crush, Priscilla I was referring to S1 when you brought up that everyone is obsessed with Subaru when that isn't true and you just dismissed them as minor characters. Meili & Elsa are the antagonists for this arc and I guess you could call the rest of the witches minor since we haven't seen a lot of them yet or how they tie in the story. But as another major character, Ryuzu and Garfiel who's appeared in every single episode except for three (two for Garfiel but he was just standing around in Roswaal's backstory episode) are characters who are major, who are not obsessed with Subaru. If we were talking about in the context of season 1 though, the royal selection candidates would definitely not be minor. Crusch and Anastasia were a big part of Arc 3 in taking down the white whale and subjugating Betelgeuse and are also not obsessed with Subaru.
OK, how about this qualifier for minor: I think they're minor characters because they seem that way to me and I'll consider them as such.
>He goes in with the expectation that he will not die and not use his RbD powers which is the conclusion he reaches after episode 12. If he had used this "magic cyanide pill" when he was imprisoned and caught by Garfiel he would lose out on the connection he made with Otto. But none of this really matters since he's made a promise not to kill himself anymore.
Yeah that promise is more poor filling of plot-holes imo. There is no actual reason Subaru needs to be suffering or ever seeing "hell" in the first place probably. But that won't do because Subaru has to say the cool lines.
>Well it's relevant in the sense we're shown Subaru's character progression. As for whether or not he's recognized it that's the big focus of episode 4 in S2P1, so yes it is addressed. Particularly the scene where Tappei juxtaposes the similar conflicts Subaru faced when he saw himself and placed expectations of himself as his father's son and when Subaru called himself a knight in the royal selection. He says in S2P1E04 "I decided I would set my sights higher. But the next thing I knew I was looking around, And there was no one around me. That's when I finally realized that there was nothing special about me at all." also in S01E18 he says this: "It's amazing that I can live like this and not feel ashamed!" (flashbacks to the room he was staying in with Emilia) The best example of him recognizing his actions though, is in S01E25 where he says this to Emilia (after meeting her for the first time after the incident) "Everything you said back there was right. I was wrong". So he's definitely addressed what he did wrong and tries to improve. Yeah, you don't have to forgive or forget what he's done but it's another thing to say he's the same character. He's definitely changed for the better and whether you like him or not it doesn't change the fact that he has made amends and is making attempts in becoming a better person.
Yeah, see I was already pretty indifferent to all of this "progression" to be honest. Even if I had been still trying to like him still at that point, he still is going from a bad character to a neutral character at best. going from a -100 to a 0 is nice, but the 0 is still nothing I'm getting excited about and he spent most of the show still in the negatives. The journey might something I'd typically be interested in, but I've stated my feeling on how forced the trials all felt.
>How are those character that I mentioned minor? If you exclude them they're the same characters from the first season who already have a pre-established relationship with Subaru. You can't say everyone is obsessed with Subaru and then say the characters who AREN'T are minor characters. Is Ram a minor character as well then? And I mean Ryuzu plays a big part in freeing the sanctuary and exploring Roswaal's and Garfiel's backstory.
How many lines to Meili, Felt, Julius, Crusch, Prsicilla, or the other witches have in the nearly 50 episodes? How many episodes do they even appear in? _Minor_ characters.
>I'm not sure how it's relevant to my point that people are trying to kill him. I'm talking about the act of suicide which he can control. The point is that he's not going to kill himself anymore so there's no need for the pill.
Man, if it is somehow relevant to the plot that he not "kill himself" painlessly just before somebody brutally and inevitably murders him, you need to reconsider your favorite show here. That is stupid as hell.
>So do all main characters have to be socially adept and not stupid for it to be a good show? Subaru is not as cringe as he was in the first season so you're exaggerating here. He's getting better and he was made with the intention of having no remarkable qualities other than RbD so again, this seems to be more of your personal dislike of Subaru rather than any fair criticism of his character and Re:Zero. Why do you say he's not interesting?
I'm not saying a character can't be awkward, but if they are, then they better be interesting in some other ways or I'm probably not going to personally like them... as is the case with Subaru. But how cringe he was in the first season is totally relevant here even if he doesn't do that shit as often any more. Some of the scenes from the first season were *INCREDIBLY* bad and they definitely impact my opinion of Subaru even if the author is trying to paint the narrative that he has changed. Has he actually recognized how bad some of his specific actions/words were in the past or is everyone just assuming he figured it out? In either case though, the author making me distain him early on has ripple effects as I watch the show. The more I disliked him, the more apathetic I became to everything related to him in the show (which is most everything as was the point of my review in large part). Then the more apathetic I am to him the less likely I am to find anything he says or does interesting. I'm not obligated in any way as a viewer to forgive a character or forget what they've done and I still see him as the same character he was when he did all the cringe so why would I?
>Ryuzu doesn't want to be his best friend. None of the witches are obsessed, view him with romantic interest, or wants to be Subaru's friends (apart from Echidna). Meili and Elsa certainly don't. Those who do care about Subaru are already in the Emilia camp. If you take a look outside of S2 and into the cast of S1 again, very few characters really want to be "Subaru's best friend". Like Felt, Julius, Crusch, Prsicilla. The only characters with romantic interest in Subaru are two. It's hardly "everyone". The cast in S2 is much more limited and the only new characters introduced are the witches of sin, Garfiel, and Ryuzu (not counting the characters from Emilia's backstory) and the only character that wants to be friends with Subaru is Garfiel and he's a chuuni so it makes sense in character. Emilia's backstory, Garfiel's backstory, nor Roswaal's backstory revolve around Subaru.What do you mean by "the nature of his power"? The two step process you describe could be applied to any story if you generalize it enough...It's not as if Tappei is writing Re:Zero on the fly when there's callbacks to the first season that show some level of thought put into the narrative.
lol I don't care about the random minor characters you can name who are exceptions to my statement. I'm sure there are also unnamed village women who are maybe not in love with Subaru.
>Why would he make a magic cyanide pill? The point of episode 12 was for him to realize that he should stop trying to kill himself and abuse his Rbd powers. In fact the show tries to steer AWAY from the plot revolving around his RbD powers by giving Subaru the realization that he needs to be able to love himself and respect himself and that he should stop killing himself. He dies six times in season 2 (p1 & p2). Each time he dies there's no lag between resurrecting and dying so if he falls to his death he feels the impact of the death as soon as he restarts.
Not using his powers to love and respect himself?? Please, there are people trying to kill him wtf is that about. A magic cyanide would be exactly him respecting himself enough to avoid needless pain and torture of death as well as seeing his loved ones die. It's a common-sense thing to do in his situation imo.
Maybe Subaru does numb himself to the people around him during RbD events where they are likely going to die (seems reasonable to me), but it isn't like his whole life is going to be a RbD event--especially if he just uses his powers to vanquish all his enemies.
I don't see why I need more than Subaru is stupid and cringe as far as criticism. Maybe if he were interesting enough to make up for the stupid and cringe moments, but he isn't even close for me.
By "wish-fulfilment" I don't mean any show with some arbitrary supernatural element. To me, it is specifically a show that feels like the author just 1) said "wouldn't it be cool if <insert some fantasy scenario>", 2) writes that down, then more or less repeats those two steps until all the characters and plot points are done. I get this feel from the way the plot revolves around Subaru, the nature of his power, the way most everyone is either obsessed with his power, views him with romantic interest, or wants to be his best friend. I don't care for that kind of show, I think it is lame.
There are plenty of reasons I, personally, don't like Subaru aside from just how cringe he generally is (though that is a big factor). Honestly, the bigger one really is just how dumb he is. It is really frustrating to watch the guy stumble through this show and struggle so much at something that seems like it should be so easy to figure out. I'm sure as a true Re:Zero fan, you'll have lots of reasons why Subaru's life needs to be as hard as it is, but for me, the more casual viewer, it seems like if he just used his brain for a second and stopped freaking out, he could be doing a lot better. Like is there a reason he can't put together some sort of magic cyanide pill to make dying painless instead of all the suffering he goes through every time he messes up? He literally can sit and retry whatever obstacle put before him INFINTE times. Meaning as long as there is ANY possibility of him accomplishing something, he can do it. He just has to suck it up and get ready do die a bunch. But in the whole second season he has died what, 3 times? Then he spends 2 or 3 episodes crying. He should literally be a god walking around and instead is a pathetic sobbing kid. And as for how hard it is to watch all the people around him die and such, sure maybe the first couple times.... but get over it man. He's seen it all before and he KNOWS he can just die and bring them back so what is the fucking deal? It's like watching a 5 year old play a Mario game or something and them just being terrible and wanting to just take the controller away from them and show them how to do it, but I'm watching an anime so all I can do is sit and watch him be terrible. Not a fun experience at all. Maybe you have your answers to these questions and understand why it needs to be so hard for Subaru, but this is what I was thinking the whole second season and the damage is done as far as I'm concerned.
I've said this a number of times already, but I don't care if character's obsessions with Subaru are "natural" in the context of the show. The fact is that most all the character are obsessed with Subaru or his superpower or whatever and they were written to be that way which is the part that is boring. They were WRITTEN INTO THE SHOW as characters obsessed with Subaru even if the "reason" they're obsessed is written with them. And AGAIN, I don't care about those reasons. Not at all. They're boring to me. All I notice is the fact everyone only seems to care about Subaru and I don't care about the arbitrary counter-examples you can come up with for that point because TOO MUCH of the show is that way even if not the whole thing. But sure, bring up Steins;Gate. Is it also wish-fulfillment? Maybe, I guess I could definitely see it. I'd argue that it have more interesting characters and a better constructed plot, but I still gave it a 6 and its sequel a 1. So maybe I have some of the same issues with that show that I do with Re:Zero.
Sorry if I'm starting to sound short on patience, but really starting to feel like we are going in circles here.
Characters being interested in Subaru vs being interested in his superpower is not a distinction I care to make either. It certainly doesn't impact my point about the show where everything revolves around him. To come full circle, there is no inherit problem with that except that it is a very lame experience if you don't like Subaru.
You're wrong if you think that wish-fulfillment/self-inserting content are defined by only good things happening to the MC or the MC always being badass. It is common for *obvious* self-insert characters to be awkward or bullied or whatever, but then have some wild fantasy fulfilled (such as getting with the prettiest girl in school or whatever). Often an awkward MC is an author's attempt to relate to the audience and make self-inserting easier for some people. I conceded R:Z is not exactly self-insert material, but will definitely stand by it being fantasy fulfilment. Which, again, not necessarily bad. It just feels cheesy to me. Similar to the "I've seen hell" line. Some people may like it and those people are going to more successfully enjoy the show as wish-fulfillment or maybe just for what it is, but I think it is cheesy as hell. Like you say, the audience is free to interpret the show however they want and their interpretations of the show are not really fair criticisms of the show itself. But my interpretation of the show is that it was written with these sort of wish-fulfillment ideas in mind or as the end goal. I personally can't get into those types of shows.
>They don't call Subaru manly or strong at all though. If you rewatch Rem's confession she never calls Subaru strong or manly. Also, Emilia still hasn't fallen in love with Subaru and only considers him as a romantic interest. The only times Subaru in the original timeline directly protected Emilia was in arc 1 with Elsa and the very last moment in S1. She likes him not because he's strong or manly but because he genuinely cares about her and the same thing is true with Rem.
Yeah I know nobody calls Subaru manly or strong... nobody would. I'm just saying that is the underlying nature of the fantasy of the man saving/rescuing the woman and her falling head over heals for him. I don't know what you mean by "Emilia still hasn't fallen in love with Subaru and only considers him as a romantic interest" but really don't care to understand that distinction lol. It's the same damn thing for all I care.
'Emilia says "I never stopped believing. That's what you've always done, after all. As long as I have you, I don't need anything else. I only want you to push yourself too hard for me".'
Honestly can't read that without yawning. I really don't care at this point what justifications the author came up with for everyone being obsessed with Subaru. At this point for me (and I feel like I've been saying this), the fact that they were written the way they were is the issue. The entire premise of the show feels like a needlessly convoluted wish-fulfillment scenario for the viewer. Subaru jumps into another world and then for <REASONS AND SUCH> a bunch of cute girls fall in love with him, cool guys all want to be his friend, scheming villains arrive to provide constant excitement (and even enough trouble for him to be able to say cool lines like "I've seen hell"). I know you want to get real into the weeds with the <REASONS AND SUCH>, but you're talking to the wrong person about that shit. The end result is what I'm looking at and saying I'm not interested.
>Then any show where a romantic interest falls in love with the main character is the dream of every middle school boy. The distinction lies where the MC actually has to work for the relationship - the girls don't immediately fall in love with him. Rem even kills him multiple times and it isn't until Subaru makes an effort into establishing a relationship with her that she falls in love with him. Even with Emilia, she doesn't return Subaru's words of love in the confession scene. Emilia probably sees Subaru as more than a friend but she doesn't really know what love is and is hesitant in returning Subaru's affections. It would be one thing if both characters were to immediately fall in love with Subaru but that isn't the case when Subaru had to work for the relationship. As for Otto, it's a running gag. Everyone pisses on Otto, even Petra in the latest episode. This isn't a Subaru only thing it's just a running joke.
No the middle schooler's fantasy I'm talking about is where they get to be a big, strong man to protect cute girls who maybe don't like them initially but then fall in love with them when they see how manly and strong they are. It is a pretty common thing to see shows try and reenact this sort of thing, but Re:Zero fits the mold perfectly. It's also fine if you don't think this is a thing or aren't bothered by it. It's just something I find extremely cheesy and I can promise you that I won't be convinced Re:Zero isn't this in the case of both Emilia and Rem.
>Echidna wants to know the past present and future which explains the nature of her trials and her being the witch of greed and wanting to expand her knowledge. So, the trials do have some basis in her personality and it'd be hard-pressed to call them convenient plot devices. Would Ryuzu original & Roswaal's backstory be convenient then as well? They don't use the trial as a mechanism but Ryuzu just tells them the origins of the sanctuary to the group. For Emilia, her dependence on Subaru is shown an extreme when Subaru kisses the dead Subaru and is mind-broken. We're also shown the internal conflict that Emilia has when she attempts the trials but as said by Echidna that she secretly wanted Subaru to solve all her problems for her. I'd say her contradictory actions and words are interesting as well as that unexpected moment where she becomes mind-broken since she's never shown that level of attachment to Subaru so far in Re:Zero. How would co-depdency be manifested in a way that was not bland?
Now you are just describing convenient plot devices and then telling me I'd be hard-pressed to call them convenient plot devices. Mind-broken Emilia to me was just another prime example of everyone in the show being unnaturally attached to Subaru. STRONG emphasis on the unnatural part in that case. I viewed it as much more terrible than interesting.
>I've already addressed Rem but the closest thing that Subaru is to a shining hero is what he is to Rem. Even then, Rem doesn't let Subaru get away with being a coward and even acknowledges his weak points. In S1 Rem addresses Subaru as a hero not because he is literally a hero but because of the virtues he extols that are similar to that of a hero such as his bravery and his selflessness when saving Rem during Arc 2. Rem wouldn't treat Reinhardt, a literal hero, the same way she treats Subaru partly because of the romantic feelings involved and because that Subaru isn't as close to being a hero as Reinhardt is. For Emilia this is addressed in the most recent episode. She doesn't even rely on Subaru for any of the trials and has the confidence in tackling the death bunnies and the rest of the trials. If she truly saw Subaru as a hero she'd still depend on him but she doesn't. In the confession scene she doesn't treat Subaru as someone superior to her either. Subaru's treatment of Otto is more for comedic effect rather than mistreatment...it isn't serious is what I mean. Even then Otto doesn't let Subaru walk over him in serious moments which is evident by the fact he punches out Subaru.
Yeah I don't care to argue semantics on the hero thing. I just mean that Rem and Emilia both fall in love with him because he "saved" them in some sense. This is the dream of every middle school boy and he gets to live it out. I never saw Otto laughing at Subaru's mistreatment, but if you can work it out that way in your head, good for you.
>I brought up her murderous actions because you said earlier in your comment it was a prime chance for character development or something to that effect. Emilia is able to overcome her past, her hatred for Fortuna, and her anxieties and worries and guilt of freezing her clansmen. Is that not the character growth you were mentioning? Before the trial she was fearful and pessimistic and now she's optimistic and confident. What character ISN'T "generally summed up with just a handful of personal traits"? . It wont reflect her entire character. In that sense you could generally sum up any character with a handful of personality traits. I'd say her codependency on Subaru prior to the trial is a negative trait, or her inability to confide in her allies (a fault she shares with Subaru) also is a negative trait. Her taking shit from everyone b/c of her prejudice is also a negative trait - she lets people walk over her too easily. And I mean she is self-serving. Her speech about making a world equal for all races was a facade during the royal election and she admits as much to Subaru at the end of S1. Her true intention was the deal she made with Roswaal in Frozen Bonds to melt her clansmen.
Emilia overcoming her past might have counted more for character growth if they didn't introduce a plot device which is apparently described like this: "The first trial is completed by parting with your greatest regret. It comes when you either accept or reject your past self". If that isn't forced, nothing is. Obviously this is more a problem with the show than Emilia herself, but I had a hard time calling that sort of "growth" interesting. I'll take her dependence on Subaru as a negative trait... but again these are all things that manifest in very bland ways imo.
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It's been fun though!
For real though this whole discussion is pointless. I've already addressed multiple times all the points you're saying I won't address and you're trying to convince me the thoughts and feelings I had as I was watching the show were wrong. Even supposing I missed out on a whole bunch of subtle and intricate theoretical details masterfully laid out by the author that would have made me like the show, I didn't pick up on that shit and the result was a bad show from my perspective. Even if you go back and tell me all the intricate details (which honestly I feel like you and everyone else are pulling out of their asses or that the "subtle" details just make the show dumber), the experience I had watching the show isn't going to change. Normally, I'd say I could be convinced to rewatch a show, but considering the thought of doing so for R:Z makes me want die inside a little there's no way. Maybe 10 or 20 years from now I'll think about it but I hope future me is smarter than that.
Yeah the message of Re:Zero definitely can't be "being a badass and overcoming all the obstacles" because it has to be about needlessly suffering instead... much more fun to watch.
As for why I find your point flimsy:
1) he loves Emilia
He barely met her at the time he commits to everything
2) Emilia saved him previously
OK, save her once and call it even
3) He wants to be more like Natsuki Kenichi’s son
This feels like it was thrown in as an afterthought to everything else along with the forced trial shit
4) he can do something about it
So? Lot of people dying he could save.
All of these are fine reasons if it were a low-cost act to help her, but he really is all-in on this for these reasons which yeah I find to be flimsy.
something like 1) Emilia 2) Rem (love interests) 3) Garfiel 4) Otto (best buddies) 5) Echidna 6) Roswaal 7) Satella (obsessed with him or his powers) 8,9,10 whoever.
>Not wanting to die isn’t illogical even if you have the power of Rbd.
No, this entire paragraph you just posted was extremely illogical because he *can't* die with his superpower (unless you're talking about the pain which is EXACTLY the reason for the cyanide pill). I'll take your point that there exists some reason that Subaru doesn't have a magical cyanide pill, but the reason is worse than the lack of pill itself. It's crazy to me to have a superpower that would allow him to build whatever future he wanted and save everyone he cares about, but to refrain from using it because it would "not be showing himself love". THAT is the real reason there is any plot at all to this show???? because he thinks it is wrong (for an incredibly illogical, emotional reason) to use his superpower to just fix everything? Somehow you're making me think less of the show.
And yeah I understood Subaru's reasons well enough. I'm saying they're flimsy considering all the shit he goes through.
OK if will help you move on, let's just say out of the top 10 or so most relevant characters, most of them are either obsessed with his power, see him as a romantic interest, or want to be his best friend.
>You're making the assumption here that Subaru will foresee him being brutally murdered and that he will take a pill before he gets murdered when I explained that he will try to the best of his abilities NOT to get murdered. Even if he's about to die he's not going to take the cyanide pill. Taking a cyanide pill to kill yourself is not rational at all. The main contention here is "why doesn't Subaru have a magic cyanide pill to kill himself?" which isn't really a plot hole and is explained by the narrative anyway, so yeah not really a plot hole. It would be inconsistent with Subaru's character growth if he were to flip-flop and consider suicide.
I just have to point out how silly in my opinion that he even considers suicide to be bad. For example, if Emilia were killed in front of him, but he was otherwise going to get past the RbD time limit, wouldn't he want to kill himself before she stays dead forever? She's the whole reason he has been going through ANY of this shit, so it seems like suicide should always at least be on the table for him as an option. It makes perfect sense to me to have a way to hit the reset button as soon as something unacceptable happens in his current timeline or if he thinks about things for one second and realizes he is for sure about to be brutally murdered (it is very common that he knows in advance so not much of an assumption). But seriously seems *very* obvious to me. There's no way you're going to convince me that he shouldn't commit suicide because of respecting himself or anything like that. It's grossly illogical.
>Okay, why was Subaru a poorly written character? You said it yourself that a character can be annoying but interesting but you never really provided reasons as to why Subaru is a poorly written character. If you're not using any reasons or facts from the show to make an informed decision about a character that completely delegitimizes your review. Shinji is an annoying brat in Evangelion and I didn't like him at all but that doesn't mean Evangelion is bad or that Shinji is a poorly written character. I predict you'll say here that the show doesn't only revolve around Shinji but the same applies with Subaru in that it also explores the mentality and motivations of other characters such as Beatrice and Emilia. I mean you say Subaru should be a god amongst men but him being like that WOULD be wish-fulfillment in that he'd stop being the stupid awkward person that he is. You can't simultaneously this is wish fulfillment and then also want Subaru to be a "god amongst men".
I can simultaneously call the show wish-fulfilment and find it to be bad writing that he isn't better at accomplishing the fantasy. I don't necessarily think that the show would be better if Subaru were a genius who tackles all his problems perfectly, but I know that it is at least frustrating to watch him be terrible. In my review I said that the show is bad IF you don't like Subaru, not that you were wrong to do so or anything of that sort. Aside from his personality and dumb choices, I'll give the probable biggest reason I find him to be a poorly written character and it is his entire motivation for doing anything in the show. He literally met Emilia and within a few episodes fell so deeply in love with her that he has suddenly been willing to endure any and all manner of torture and suffering and see hell itself just to make her smile or whatever. It's weak at best imo. Going to extreme lengths for the girl happens all the time (and usually the whole plot isn't because of it), but rarely are they the lengths Subaru is going and usually the relationship is a little more than a childish infatuation
Of course there is no method of this aside from cases where there are objective main characters like Subaru who are definite not minor or maybe the author saying who is minor vs major. It is a spectrum of how "significant" characters are and where you draw the threshold is subjective. I'm saying those characters are not significant enough for me to consider them major characters or to weight their thoughts/actions as heavily as I do major characters. This is not complicated and feels like you're looking for anything to argue about.
>You also brought up plot holes In your original review but you never really expanded what the plot holes were. Would killing himself not be suffering? That's why he doesn't do it cause he doesn't want to kill himself. He just doesn't want to die. He said the hell line BECAUSE he was intentionally going to kill himself later in that route and now he's stopped that line of thinking. You have a big issue with that line so it should be good now that he wants to stop his own suffering and saying that only he's the one that needs to suffer.
Maybe killing himself is suffering, but if there is a way to kill yourself with less suffering involved than being brutally murdered, then that is the point of the magic cyanide. Again, not complicated. If you have a super power where you die a lot, then this would be high priority for a rational character in a well-written show.
>The point is that the character was written that way intentionally so he could have some sort of redemption arc. Your main point was how he doesn't use his powers more intelligently which I addressed and later that he's cringe and unlikeable. I've shown you how he's improved and that he was first intentionally made to be cringe and unlikeable. Why is he a zero and not say, a sixty then? We've seen Subaru's backstory also in S1E04 although not as detailed so I don't really understand how it's forced since it's already been foreshadowed. Also, what do you mean by "bad"? As in a bad person or as in a poorly written character? It's also just not the trials that showed Subaru's growth but the confession with Emilia and Rem in S1 that also showcase his growth. Is that also forced then?
Bad as in Subaru was a bad character in season 1. I won't say all the growth was forced, but the trial definitely was. My point here was almost entirely just my perception of Subaru and how I, as a viewer, felt about him. You can give him a 60 or a 100 or whatever, but for me, he still isn't even 0 to be honest and I don't actually need reasons or facts from the show to justify that.
OK, how about this qualifier for minor: I think they're minor characters because they seem that way to me and I'll consider them as such.
>He goes in with the expectation that he will not die and not use his RbD powers which is the conclusion he reaches after episode 12. If he had used this "magic cyanide pill" when he was imprisoned and caught by Garfiel he would lose out on the connection he made with Otto. But none of this really matters since he's made a promise not to kill himself anymore.
Yeah that promise is more poor filling of plot-holes imo. There is no actual reason Subaru needs to be suffering or ever seeing "hell" in the first place probably. But that won't do because Subaru has to say the cool lines.
>Well it's relevant in the sense we're shown Subaru's character progression. As for whether or not he's recognized it that's the big focus of episode 4 in S2P1, so yes it is addressed. Particularly the scene where Tappei juxtaposes the similar conflicts Subaru faced when he saw himself and placed expectations of himself as his father's son and when Subaru called himself a knight in the royal selection. He says in S2P1E04 "I decided I would set my sights higher. But the next thing I knew I was looking around, And there was no one around me. That's when I finally realized that there was nothing special about me at all." also in S01E18 he says this: "It's amazing that I can live like this and not feel ashamed!" (flashbacks to the room he was staying in with Emilia) The best example of him recognizing his actions though, is in S01E25 where he says this to Emilia (after meeting her for the first time after the incident) "Everything you said back there was right. I was wrong". So he's definitely addressed what he did wrong and tries to improve. Yeah, you don't have to forgive or forget what he's done but it's another thing to say he's the same character. He's definitely changed for the better and whether you like him or not it doesn't change the fact that he has made amends and is making attempts in becoming a better person.
Yeah, see I was already pretty indifferent to all of this "progression" to be honest. Even if I had been still trying to like him still at that point, he still is going from a bad character to a neutral character at best. going from a -100 to a 0 is nice, but the 0 is still nothing I'm getting excited about and he spent most of the show still in the negatives. The journey might something I'd typically be interested in, but I've stated my feeling on how forced the trials all felt.
How many lines to Meili, Felt, Julius, Crusch, Prsicilla, or the other witches have in the nearly 50 episodes? How many episodes do they even appear in? _Minor_ characters.
>I'm not sure how it's relevant to my point that people are trying to kill him. I'm talking about the act of suicide which he can control. The point is that he's not going to kill himself anymore so there's no need for the pill.
Man, if it is somehow relevant to the plot that he not "kill himself" painlessly just before somebody brutally and inevitably murders him, you need to reconsider your favorite show here. That is stupid as hell.
>So do all main characters have to be socially adept and not stupid for it to be a good show? Subaru is not as cringe as he was in the first season so you're exaggerating here. He's getting better and he was made with the intention of having no remarkable qualities other than RbD so again, this seems to be more of your personal dislike of Subaru rather than any fair criticism of his character and Re:Zero. Why do you say he's not interesting?
I'm not saying a character can't be awkward, but if they are, then they better be interesting in some other ways or I'm probably not going to personally like them... as is the case with Subaru. But how cringe he was in the first season is totally relevant here even if he doesn't do that shit as often any more. Some of the scenes from the first season were *INCREDIBLY* bad and they definitely impact my opinion of Subaru even if the author is trying to paint the narrative that he has changed. Has he actually recognized how bad some of his specific actions/words were in the past or is everyone just assuming he figured it out? In either case though, the author making me distain him early on has ripple effects as I watch the show. The more I disliked him, the more apathetic I became to everything related to him in the show (which is most everything as was the point of my review in large part). Then the more apathetic I am to him the less likely I am to find anything he says or does interesting. I'm not obligated in any way as a viewer to forgive a character or forget what they've done and I still see him as the same character he was when he did all the cringe so why would I?
lol I don't care about the random minor characters you can name who are exceptions to my statement. I'm sure there are also unnamed village women who are maybe not in love with Subaru.
>Why would he make a magic cyanide pill? The point of episode 12 was for him to realize that he should stop trying to kill himself and abuse his Rbd powers. In fact the show tries to steer AWAY from the plot revolving around his RbD powers by giving Subaru the realization that he needs to be able to love himself and respect himself and that he should stop killing himself. He dies six times in season 2 (p1 & p2). Each time he dies there's no lag between resurrecting and dying so if he falls to his death he feels the impact of the death as soon as he restarts.
Not using his powers to love and respect himself?? Please, there are people trying to kill him wtf is that about. A magic cyanide would be exactly him respecting himself enough to avoid needless pain and torture of death as well as seeing his loved ones die. It's a common-sense thing to do in his situation imo.
Maybe Subaru does numb himself to the people around him during RbD events where they are likely going to die (seems reasonable to me), but it isn't like his whole life is going to be a RbD event--especially if he just uses his powers to vanquish all his enemies.
I don't see why I need more than Subaru is stupid and cringe as far as criticism. Maybe if he were interesting enough to make up for the stupid and cringe moments, but he isn't even close for me.
There are plenty of reasons I, personally, don't like Subaru aside from just how cringe he generally is (though that is a big factor). Honestly, the bigger one really is just how dumb he is. It is really frustrating to watch the guy stumble through this show and struggle so much at something that seems like it should be so easy to figure out. I'm sure as a true Re:Zero fan, you'll have lots of reasons why Subaru's life needs to be as hard as it is, but for me, the more casual viewer, it seems like if he just used his brain for a second and stopped freaking out, he could be doing a lot better. Like is there a reason he can't put together some sort of magic cyanide pill to make dying painless instead of all the suffering he goes through every time he messes up? He literally can sit and retry whatever obstacle put before him INFINTE times. Meaning as long as there is ANY possibility of him accomplishing something, he can do it. He just has to suck it up and get ready do die a bunch. But in the whole second season he has died what, 3 times? Then he spends 2 or 3 episodes crying. He should literally be a god walking around and instead is a pathetic sobbing kid. And as for how hard it is to watch all the people around him die and such, sure maybe the first couple times.... but get over it man. He's seen it all before and he KNOWS he can just die and bring them back so what is the fucking deal? It's like watching a 5 year old play a Mario game or something and them just being terrible and wanting to just take the controller away from them and show them how to do it, but I'm watching an anime so all I can do is sit and watch him be terrible. Not a fun experience at all. Maybe you have your answers to these questions and understand why it needs to be so hard for Subaru, but this is what I was thinking the whole second season and the damage is done as far as I'm concerned.
Sorry if I'm starting to sound short on patience, but really starting to feel like we are going in circles here.
You're wrong if you think that wish-fulfillment/self-inserting content are defined by only good things happening to the MC or the MC always being badass. It is common for *obvious* self-insert characters to be awkward or bullied or whatever, but then have some wild fantasy fulfilled (such as getting with the prettiest girl in school or whatever). Often an awkward MC is an author's attempt to relate to the audience and make self-inserting easier for some people. I conceded R:Z is not exactly self-insert material, but will definitely stand by it being fantasy fulfilment. Which, again, not necessarily bad. It just feels cheesy to me. Similar to the "I've seen hell" line. Some people may like it and those people are going to more successfully enjoy the show as wish-fulfillment or maybe just for what it is, but I think it is cheesy as hell. Like you say, the audience is free to interpret the show however they want and their interpretations of the show are not really fair criticisms of the show itself. But my interpretation of the show is that it was written with these sort of wish-fulfillment ideas in mind or as the end goal. I personally can't get into those types of shows.
Yeah I know nobody calls Subaru manly or strong... nobody would. I'm just saying that is the underlying nature of the fantasy of the man saving/rescuing the woman and her falling head over heals for him. I don't know what you mean by "Emilia still hasn't fallen in love with Subaru and only considers him as a romantic interest" but really don't care to understand that distinction lol. It's the same damn thing for all I care.
'Emilia says "I never stopped believing. That's what you've always done, after all. As long as I have you, I don't need anything else. I only want you to push yourself too hard for me".'
Honestly can't read that without yawning. I really don't care at this point what justifications the author came up with for everyone being obsessed with Subaru. At this point for me (and I feel like I've been saying this), the fact that they were written the way they were is the issue. The entire premise of the show feels like a needlessly convoluted wish-fulfillment scenario for the viewer. Subaru jumps into another world and then for <REASONS AND SUCH> a bunch of cute girls fall in love with him, cool guys all want to be his friend, scheming villains arrive to provide constant excitement (and even enough trouble for him to be able to say cool lines like "I've seen hell"). I know you want to get real into the weeds with the <REASONS AND SUCH>, but you're talking to the wrong person about that shit. The end result is what I'm looking at and saying I'm not interested.
No the middle schooler's fantasy I'm talking about is where they get to be a big, strong man to protect cute girls who maybe don't like them initially but then fall in love with them when they see how manly and strong they are. It is a pretty common thing to see shows try and reenact this sort of thing, but Re:Zero fits the mold perfectly. It's also fine if you don't think this is a thing or aren't bothered by it. It's just something I find extremely cheesy and I can promise you that I won't be convinced Re:Zero isn't this in the case of both Emilia and Rem.
>Echidna wants to know the past present and future which explains the nature of her trials and her being the witch of greed and wanting to expand her knowledge. So, the trials do have some basis in her personality and it'd be hard-pressed to call them convenient plot devices. Would Ryuzu original & Roswaal's backstory be convenient then as well? They don't use the trial as a mechanism but Ryuzu just tells them the origins of the sanctuary to the group. For Emilia, her dependence on Subaru is shown an extreme when Subaru kisses the dead Subaru and is mind-broken. We're also shown the internal conflict that Emilia has when she attempts the trials but as said by Echidna that she secretly wanted Subaru to solve all her problems for her. I'd say her contradictory actions and words are interesting as well as that unexpected moment where she becomes mind-broken since she's never shown that level of attachment to Subaru so far in Re:Zero. How would co-depdency be manifested in a way that was not bland?
Now you are just describing convenient plot devices and then telling me I'd be hard-pressed to call them convenient plot devices. Mind-broken Emilia to me was just another prime example of everyone in the show being unnaturally attached to Subaru. STRONG emphasis on the unnatural part in that case. I viewed it as much more terrible than interesting.
Yeah I don't care to argue semantics on the hero thing. I just mean that Rem and Emilia both fall in love with him because he "saved" them in some sense. This is the dream of every middle school boy and he gets to live it out. I never saw Otto laughing at Subaru's mistreatment, but if you can work it out that way in your head, good for you.
>I brought up her murderous actions because you said earlier in your comment it was a prime chance for character development or something to that effect. Emilia is able to overcome her past, her hatred for Fortuna, and her anxieties and worries and guilt of freezing her clansmen. Is that not the character growth you were mentioning? Before the trial she was fearful and pessimistic and now she's optimistic and confident. What character ISN'T "generally summed up with just a handful of personal traits"? . It wont reflect her entire character. In that sense you could generally sum up any character with a handful of personality traits. I'd say her codependency on Subaru prior to the trial is a negative trait, or her inability to confide in her allies (a fault she shares with Subaru) also is a negative trait. Her taking shit from everyone b/c of her prejudice is also a negative trait - she lets people walk over her too easily. And I mean she is self-serving. Her speech about making a world equal for all races was a facade during the royal election and she admits as much to Subaru at the end of S1. Her true intention was the deal she made with Roswaal in Frozen Bonds to melt her clansmen.
Emilia overcoming her past might have counted more for character growth if they didn't introduce a plot device which is apparently described like this: "The first trial is completed by parting with your greatest regret. It comes when you either accept or reject your past self". If that isn't forced, nothing is. Obviously this is more a problem with the show than Emilia herself, but I had a hard time calling that sort of "growth" interesting. I'll take her dependence on Subaru as a negative trait... but again these are all things that manifest in very bland ways imo.