Since atheism has become synonymous with scepticism and a neutral position, I'm curious if you know what it would take for you to believe?
As Hume says on miracles, they're just first person and hearsay to everyone else. So if you witnessed a miracle would you believe in the supernatural? No matter how strong the evidence, would people then be justified on rejecting the evidence completely in favour of a natural explanation?
A lot of people use Einstein as an example to promote deism, since deism appears to be a more sensible position then atheism itself. But why an atheist would use Einstein is beyond me. After all, he said it's due to the complex order of the universe that he believes in God not as a personal God. Surely that just sends the word fallacy shooting up the atheists brain.
I've heard atheists give arguments for why they don't believe including asking people to define God. Since we can only define God's attribute, "a creator", (which is a noun anyway) that makes God an inconceivable notion. I found this just strengthens the existence of God however.
These are just some examples, so atheists, what would it take for you to believe, and how strongly are you convicted to atheism?
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Trance said:
I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man.
#2
Today, 7:19 AM
Clebardman
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I'm not going to believe in a god. See, the problem with monotheistic religions, is that they'd be a little bit more credible if they weren't so many claiming to be the one true faith :-3.
"miracle" lol, there's no such thing as a miracle.
Polytheism is a hundred times less stupid and oppressive than monotheism, sadly it's a meh thought control tool, that's why it disappeared. Dunno what would be my stance on the subject if I had been born 2 thousand years ago.
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#3
Today, 7:34 AM
Itsuharo
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Nothing will make me believe in God its either you present me a solid 100% proof that God is in fact real or i will not change my mind.
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#4
Today, 7:35 AM
Interrrrrpetgyu
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God existing. Believing in something you can't see is a mental illness.
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#5
Today, 7:35 AM
Darek
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My waifu becoming real would be enough of a miracle to make me believe.
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Saediss said:
#OnlyFapToTrap
Its not gay if the dick is cute.
#6
Today, 7:36 AM
Bobby2Hands
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How about god just shows himself? Seems simple enough to me.
How about he appears in the minds of everyone on the planet and says "hey, god here, just thought I would let you know that I created the universe and all of you, if you could please go ahead and follow the one true correct religion Mormonism that would be great thanks"
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#7
Today, 7:38 AM
Milennin
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What exactly defines a miracle? It can mean a lot of different things. Regardless, if something unexplainable would happen, it might as well just be seen as a glitch in the matrix. I don't see why there needs to be a god involved in it.
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#8
Today, 7:45 AM
Crusader_8
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Evidence. And a falsifiable theory that describes why the existence of a god is necessary to effectively describe reality.
The age-old issue with the idea of a god being the creator of existence is that it has no predictive or explanatory power.
Imagine a crime scene that you stumbled upon, and when you ask the detective what happened he just replies "i believe a guy named Fred did it." Your reaction may justifiably be, "thats great and all but how do you know fred did it?" Because belief in a guy named Fred doesn't explain anything about the crime scene other than who. And the other guy's title as detective is insufficient to accept his Fred claim as true. In almost every crime show or movie, the what and how are more important than the who - most shows have a "we got the wrong guy!" twist in the middle. You would be highly suspicious of a detective who just blames crimes on a guy named Fred without proper evidence and justification.
So what boggles me as an atheist is why we don't hold god claims to the same standard that we hold Fred claims.
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There is absolutely no reason why I should accept "turn your brain off" as a valid excuse to defend a poor show.
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im more of an agnostic person
and what u say if i would believe in god if a miracle happened
nah
it takes a lot more than that because i often think of miracles as pure luck
and we all know luck is a factor in skill
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#10
Today, 8:22 AM
Deknijff
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Honestly I don't think there is anything that would make me believe
I was thinking at first maybe if a God would come down to me and speak to me directly then yeah sure I would believe
but then I thought to myself no wait I'd probably go to a doctor to have my brain scanned to find out why I was having crazy visions
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Quick facts about me
The second you say Toradora is better than Shakugan no Shana is the moment it becomes harder for me to take you seriously
but I like both shows just saying
Some mistake me for a M but Im actually a S
People think I have a thing for pink hair but thats just a coincidence when it comes to my favourites
#11
Today, 8:22 AM
Crusader_8
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Im not even sure why believers are fixated on the idea that miracles are somehow convincing. Define miracle, define what makes a miracle possible, then present evidence that miracles happen. Most claimed miracles thus far were either confirmed to not have happened, or upon investigation were revealed to have a 100% natural explanation.
This reminds me of ghost hunters who tell themselves that EM detectors indicate ghost activity - which published study, exactly, confirmed that in the first place? Lol
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There is absolutely no reason why I should accept "turn your brain off" as a valid excuse to defend a poor show.
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I'm agnostic, in a sense. I believe in "karma," or the "universe," which is often synonymous with God. Do I believe in Heaven and Hell? Probably not, or at least I think "Hell" is more of a guilt mechanism than anything else. I've heard of miracle stories from Christians, and assuming they're not lying, I believe them. I think one of the natural laws of the universe is you believing/the vibe that you give off and it being sent back to you, which kind of ties into karma. For example, if you have a positive attitude, you're more likely to have a good day and vice versa for a bad attitude - it's just the vibe you give off, and sometimes people can pick up on these vibes and may be attracted to you/stay away from you. That's just how the universe works - some people call it God via praying/believing. Overall, I think it's the same thing basically.
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#13
Today, 8:38 AM
Dick_Dawkins
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@Bobby2Hands What if the cosmological argument is sound, and you've instead listened to satan who has said to you "It's a fallacious argument, no reason to believe".
@Crusader_8 We can't define it other than something that shouldn't occur due to our understanding of the laws of nature. Ones that have been explained haven't been due to lack of understanding of our universe, it's just that the "miracle" itself distracts us and we get focussed on how pretty it is, or luck and probability etc.
A clear understanding of how an event would pan out due to our natural laws makes a miracle all the more plausible.
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Trance said:
I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man.
#14
Today, 9:02 AM
Maou_heika
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I became an Atheist after seeing all the rubbish that goes on within religions. My parents are staunch believers in Christianity and they annoy me to no end. They used to take me to these "healing prayers" and healers or sometimes even call them over to our house. All these healers, priests and nuns are just shitty people who don't even practice what they preach. A lot of them used say that I have evil spirits within me and do their crappy prayers then ask my parents to leave the room and say some shitty stuff which I never even did and tell me that they'll lock me in a cage or tell my parents that only whipping will drive the devil out of me. My idiotic parents would even and sometimes even now put some pieces of paper under my bed with some weird scribbling. I was studying in a convent school and they were pretty strict about "religion", I'd always end up in the Principal's office for not attending Sunday school and being threatened about deducting marks from internals. I really hate those people who go on with their "Jesus Jesus" crap, seeing a bible or cross annoys me to no end because it reminds me of those religious hypocrites who keep on advising my parents to beat me or throw me out of the house and stuff. My mother calls me the devil because I don't attend mass and says things like "why did God give me a devil like you", "who asked you to be born" and tells me to die.
Nothing in this world can get me to believe and follow, specially when it comes to Christianity. If a God does exist then I hate him for making me.
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#15
Today, 9:09 AM
Crusader_8
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I can safely conclude youre putting the cart before the horse as far as miracles go. Miracle claims are very similar to god claims and Fred claims; it requires an insufficient understanding of the facts and an unwillingness to answer a question with "i dont know."
Take some ridiculous event, like closing your eyes then opening them to see there's suddenly a couple dozen frogs around your feet briefly sitting in a pattern that reads "god." Admittedly difficult to personally investigate what you just saw, but why would you make a truth claim by declaring a violation of physics occured when you know so little about what happened?
Nothing defies the laws of nature. If something appears to do so, it just means we had those laws wrong. Take for instance how Newtonian understanding of gravity still couldn't explain many things before Einstein's general relativity came along. And there are certain things we're observing now that defy relativity. Miracles? Of course not, it just means relativity may have it wrong.
You also presuppose that an occurence that is described as miraculous is defying any laws of nature to begin with. There was a recorded instance of a mother very briefly lifting a car up to save a child. While some people were quick to call that a miracle, science showed us that's actually possible though rare.
It's almost absurd that i have to spell out a step-by-step to approaching potential "miracles," because no one even has any business jumping to such conclusions. But here we go:
1. Take time to fully understand what happened.
2. Identify why the event seems unusual or unlikely.
3. Observe surroundings and ask questions. Could the event be chemical? Physical? Is it possible the event could be replicated by people?
4. If not alone, ask others what they saw/heard. Be as open-ended as possible in questions to prevent planting the idea of a miracle in their head (doing so will just make them leap to that conclusion if they didnt already). Differing testimonies over the same event suggest a possible exaggeration or inconsistency of supposed facts regarding the event, meaning the event may in fact not be as spectacular as one imagined.
5. Recognize that brain is awful at forming memories and is very subjective. Find ways to investigate the event that eliminate human subjectivity and human error.
6. If you cannot determine a natural cause to the event, or can't effectively demonstrate that the event wasnt extremely unusual, then you just have one proper conclusion: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.
If you find yourself tempted to declare "miracle" by step 6, then you suffer from a gaps fallacy which you are willing to make supernatural truth claims about stuff that is unknowable or currently unknown. If you tell me X is a miracle, I'm going to ask "how do you know it is a miracle? What have you done to detrmine the validity of that claim?" This is where miracle claims typically crumble.
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There is absolutely no reason why I should accept "turn your brain off" as a valid excuse to defend a poor show.
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Maou_heika said:
I became an Atheist after seeing all the rubbish that goes on within religions. My parents are staunch believers in Christianity and they annoy me to no end. They used to take me to these "healing prayers" and healers or sometimes even call them over to our house. All these healers, priests and nuns are just shitty people who don't even practice what they preach. A lot of them used say that I have evil spirits within me and do their crappy prayers then ask my parents to leave the room and say some shitty stuff which I never even did and tell me that they'll lock me in a cage or tell my parents that only whipping will drive the devil out of me. My idiotic parents would even and sometimes even now put some pieces of paper under my bed with some weird scribbling. I was studying in a convent school and they were pretty strict about "religion", I'd always end up in the Principal's office for not attending Sunday school and being threatened about deducting marks from internals. I really hate those people who go on with their "Jesus Jesus" crap, seeing a bible or cross annoys me to no end because it reminds me of those religious hypocrites who keep on advising my parents to beat me or throw me out of the house and stuff. My mother calls me the devil because I don't attend mass and says things like "why did God give me a devil like you", "who asked you to be born" and tells me to die.
Nothing in this world can get me to believe and follow, specially when it comes to Christianity. If a God does exist then I hate him for making me.
These are the stories I think of when people ask me "what's the harm?"
Im sorry that religion has made your life tough. Living without religion is for many even harder due to the ridicule and stigma from not understanding that some people value truth over faith.
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I agree it depends whether the miracle be more likely caused by a lack of understanding of either the chemical or physical.
Of course the problem is also that as reasonable as your last paragraph is made out to be, it can also be very unreasonable as by definition a miracle cannot be tested only shown to defeat every natural explanation we can give. You are justified in either claiming it a miracle and saying you don't know.
"Im sorry that religion has made your life tough. Living without religion is for many even harder due to the ridicule and stigma from not understanding that some people value truth over faith.."
This is the exact opposite for me and many others. I believe history has been completely twisted and ignored by atheists so they can supress religion.
Modified by Dick_Dawkins, Today, 9:30 AM
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Trance said:
I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man.
#18
Today, 9:28 AM
Deknijff
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Posts: 2669
I don't know why but I felt this was a good video to share for those that might not of heard of it
I felt this was also a good video
I wanted to post the Religulous documentary from Bill Maher but there was no video I could find with good quality sadly
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Quick facts about me
The second you say Toradora is better than Shakugan no Shana is the moment it becomes harder for me to take you seriously
but I like both shows just saying
Some mistake me for a M but Im actually a S
People think I have a thing for pink hair but thats just a coincidence when it comes to my favourites
#19
Today, 9:38 AM
JustALEX
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It's so very very simple.
Evidence.
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#20
Today, 9:43 AM
NoobAsian
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That I'd get 72 female virgins when I die
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#21
Today, 9:58 AM
tsuyokunaru
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It would take a miracle in more ways than one
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密室殺人はなぜ美しいのか。
#22
Today, 9:59 AM
Rinar
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Existing would be nice or maybe he's just afk all the time. I don't need someone else in my life I have to care about that won't care about me anyway. Btw your sig is cringy, god is supposed to be everywhere, there's not more of him in america, like, that's what omnipotence is about lol.
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#23
Today, 10:10 AM
Bobby2Hands
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Rinar said:
Existing would be nice or maybe he's just afk all the time. I don't need someone else in my life I have to care about that won't care about me anyway. Btw your sig is cringy, god is supposed to be everywhere, there's not more of him in america, like, that's what omnipotence is about lol.
You shouldn't expect any less from Ray Comfort, the guy is a drooling idiot.
Here, watch him "prove" the existence of god using a banana.
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#24
Today, 10:57 AM
Rellexia
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Scientific proof stronger than the theories already proposed. A "miracle" could just be attributed to science we haven't discovered or fully understand yet, as it so often has been shown in the past.
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#25
Today, 11:08 AM
Crusader_8
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Dick_Dawkins said:
I agree it depends whether the miracle be more likely caused by a lack of understanding of either the chemical or physical.
Of course the problem is also that as reasonable as your last paragraph is made out to be, it can also be very unreasonable as by definition a miracle cannot be tested only shown to defeat every natural explanation we can give. You are justified in either claiming it a miracle and saying you don't know.
"Im sorry that religion has made your life tough. Living without religion is for many even harder due to the ridicule and stigma from not understanding that some people value truth over faith.."
This is the exact opposite for me and many others. I believe history has been completely twisted and ignored by atheists so they can supress religion.
I made a point earlier that by defining a miracle as something untestable, you gap-fallacy your position. No one should take your belief in miracles seriously as a result. It can either be defined in a testable way, or it doesnt exist. If youre going to present rational arguments, understand that youre the one that claims miracles exist so you have the burden of proof. By saying "by definitoon it cannot be tested" is a glib way of saying "by definition it cannot be defined." Because how do we define the natural world? Empirically.
By the way, you make an interesting claim that atheists suppress religion. Is there evidence for that? I know there's a lot of evidence of multiple organizations coming into power both in europe, middle east, and russia which had so much power by the middle ages that their leaders essentially chose who would be king or queen of multiple nations. These organizations also had a strong influence in dictating what was allowed to be read and taught. Their power was so strong that it was a crime to not be in their club, which the sentence would often be death. You wouldnt happen to know any organization like that, would you?
Oh yeah. The church. Oops. Dont tell me that atheists have so much power that your religion couldnt dominate the conversation for 1800 years?
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There is absolutely no reason why I should accept "turn your brain off" as a valid excuse to defend a poor show.
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Well having a faith is a good thing, so I don't know, maybe someday they will find the light they seek too.
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Rest in Peace Meme club :(
#27
Today, 11:25 AM
Bobby2Hands
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_Ako_ said:
Well having a faith is a good thing, so I don't know, maybe someday they will find the light they seek too.
Faith is not a good thing, it is blindly accepting something that you don't have any evidence for. And yeah...no, I'm not "seeking the light" or any other cliched nonsense phrases. I just don't buy that magical beings such as gods exist.
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#28
Today, 11:26 AM
_Ako_
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Bobby2Hands said:
_Ako_ said:
Well having a faith is a good thing, so I don't know, maybe someday they will find the light they seek too.
Yeah...I'm not "seeking the light" or any other cliched nonsense phrases.
I just don't buy that magical beings such as gods exist.
Well I dunno dude, I mean if you believe that there's no God, you might as well acknowledge those who believes in God not just kill them...
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#29
Today, 11:30 AM
Bobby2Hands
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_Ako_ said:
Bobby2Hands said:
Expand quote
Yeah...I'm not "seeking the light" or any other cliched nonsense phrases.
I just don't buy that magical beings such as gods exist.
Well I dunno dude, I mean if you believe that there's no God, you might as well acknowledge those who believes in God not just kill them...
I do acknowledge those who believe in god and I certainly don't kill them...what are you even talking about?
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Well I dunno dude, I mean if you believe that there's no God, you might as well acknowledge those who believes in God not just kill them...
I do acknowledge those who believe in god and I certainly don't kill them...what are you even talking about?
Ohhh good, now we cleared the "I will kill you because you believe in God" flag... xD
Isn't there a lot of back-and-forth hate between catholic and atheist?
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#31
Today, 11:34 AM
Crusader_8
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Even if having faith was a virtue (which it is not), faith can't assess the truth value of a god claim. Bobby2hands already explained what faith is so there you go
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There is absolutely no reason why I should accept "turn your brain off" as a valid excuse to defend a poor show.
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_Ako_ said:
Bobby2Hands said:
Expand quote
I do acknowledge those who believe in god and I certainly don't kill them...what are you even talking about?
Ohhh good, now we cleared the "I will kill you because you believe in God" flag... xD
Isn't there a lot of back-and-forth hate between catholic and atheist?
there is little to no history of atheists killing christians. There is plenty of history which shows us that atheism was a crime punishable by death.
Youre the ones that distrust us. Youre the ones who killed us for centuries just for questioning your book. Youre the ones that believe we're evil. You believe everything your book claims about us.
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There is absolutely no reason why I should accept "turn your brain off" as a valid excuse to defend a poor show.
Ohhh good, now we cleared the "I will kill you because you believe in God" flag... xD
Isn't there a lot of back-and-forth hate between catholic and atheist?
there is little to no history of atheists killing christians. There is plenty of history which shows us that atheism was a crime punishable by death.
Youre the ones that distrust us. Youre the ones who killed us for centuries just for questioning your book. Youre the ones that believe we're evil. You believe everything your book claims about us.
Now you're pointing the finger at me and blaming me?
So you certainly didn't raise the "I will kill you because you believe in God" flag but the "I will blame you because you believe in God" flag... I see what you did there...
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#34
12 hours ago
razortongue
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If he decided to show himself then I'd have no choice but to believe. That being said I still wouldn't worship him though.
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#35
12 hours ago
Dick_Dawkins
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Crusader_8 said:
Dick_Dawkins said:
I agree it depends whether the miracle be more likely caused by a lack of understanding of either the chemical or physical.
Of course the problem is also that as reasonable as your last paragraph is made out to be, it can also be very unreasonable as by definition a miracle cannot be tested only shown to defeat every natural explanation we can give. You are justified in either claiming it a miracle and saying you don't know.
"Im sorry that religion has made your life tough. Living without religion is for many even harder due to the ridicule and stigma from not understanding that some people value truth over faith.."
This is the exact opposite for me and many others. I believe history has been completely twisted and ignored by atheists so they can supress religion.
I made a point earlier that by defining a miracle as something untestable, you gap-fallacy your position. No one should take your belief in miracles seriously as a result. It can either be defined in a testable way, or it doesnt exist. If youre going to present rational arguments, understand that youre the one that claims miracles exist so you have the burden of proof. By saying "by definitoon it cannot be tested" is a glib way of saying "by definition it cannot be defined." Because how do we define the natural world? Empirically.
By the way, you make an interesting claim that atheists suppress religion. Is there evidence for that? I know there's a lot of evidence of multiple organizations coming into power both in europe, middle east, and russia which had so much power by the middle ages that their leaders essentially chose who would be king or queen of multiple nations. These organizations also had a strong influence in dictating what was allowed to be read and taught. Their power was so strong that it was a crime to not be in their club, which the sentence would often be death. You wouldnt happen to know any organization like that, would you?
Oh yeah. The church. Oops. Dont tell me that atheists have so much power that your religion couldnt dominate the conversation for 1800 years?
The definition isn't necessarily a problem. How do we define humanity? By goodness among humans? Nope that's all just attributes, but we recognise "humanity" as existing.
You could also say the universe has always existed. Someone would be justified in saying yes in a metaphysical sense, just as much as you'd be justified in giving a nature of the gaps fallacy and saying, well no there'll be a natural explanation.
Wouldn't you agree that if a God exists and when you'd ask "you should have given us testable evidence" he'd just respond, what are you even talking about?.
As for history, all the common tropes "the church has been a persecutor", "they believed the earth was flat", "religion held back science" etc. These are all memes at best.
@Bobby2hands
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Trance said:
I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man.
#36
12 hours ago
Bobby2Hands
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@Dick_Dawkins
We can all pull up pointless quotes from old white dudes, but I don't see how that will help the discussion.
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#37
12 hours ago
Dick_Dawkins
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@Bobby2hands It might help you admit what you'd need to see as evidence. Also I was drunk when I said that. What I meant to say was Hitler is my God, and atheism is my virtue.
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Trance said:
I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man.
#38
12 hours ago
Bobby2Hands
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Dick_Dawkins said:
@Bobby2hands It might help you admit what you'd need to see as evidence.
Pretty sure I already told you that in my first post.
Bobby2Hands said:
How about god just shows himself? Seems simple enough to me.
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#39
11 hours ago
Crusader_8
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Dick_Dawkins said:
The definition isn't necessarily a problem. How do we define humanity? By goodness among humans? Nope that's all just attributes, but we recognise "humanity" as existing.
You could also say the universe has always existed. Someone would be justified in saying yes in a metaphysical sense, just as much as you'd be justified in giving a nature of the gaps fallacy and saying, well no there'll be a natural explanation.
Wouldn't you agree that if a God exists and when you'd ask "you should have given us testable evidence" he'd just respond, what are you even talking about?.
As for history, all the common tropes "the church has been a persecutor", "they believed the earth was flat", "religion held back science" etc. These are all memes at best. ]
Defining humanity is an improper comparison because your usage of the term humanity is metaphysical, in other words as a concept. Like the word culture. But even then those words have clear usages but since they are not physical things, they dont need to be empirical. A miracle, whatever it may be, is claimed by you to be an event that takes place in reality. Therefore, it has to be empirically definable. Stop trying to shove miracles into the gap closet to make it easier to defend, especially after ive given you so many opportunities to reconsider your approach. I've half a mind to accuse you of direct rudeness for using the exact same argument three or four times now, as it suggests youre straight-up ignoring me at this point.
Im not sure how claiming the universe having always existed could be in a metaphysical sense, but im not going to bother addressing it because it has nothing to do with your claim that miracles exist but somehow cant be defined. We're not talking about universes, if we were then you can bring it up all you like.
I wouldn't claim to know how a god would respond to anything i'd say. If there was a god and if he is even a tenth as capricious and evil as he is in the bible, i wouldnt have anything to say to it that could be repeated here.
Setting aside that you used the word "tropes" incorrectly, there's actually evidence of what you call "memes." And since you seem to be pulling out videos and images to argue in your place... Did you know that religion's attempt to refute such "memes" have all been thoroughly debunked? For example, lots of apologists claim that the church promoted science, when in fact they did but only when it didnt threaten their power. Which at that point is not a promotion of science. Heck, it took the catholic church forever just to accept aristotle's scientific works... And even then by that point a lot of his works were already discovered to have been wrong. The only other time the church promoted science was when it could be used to either further their authority or be directly used toward religious works. This is why all the most rapid scientific advancements have come in the last two centuries, when the church's power was fading and secularism was rising.
If you wish to be honest with yourself, read quotes and books of things that disprove your position instead of just looking for captioned images that you agree with. Do you really think you can prove a god exists by showing us quotes of what other people's opinions are on it? So what if einstein believed in god - that's not evidence for your case! So what if lennox asserts that faith is rational - he's wrong! You can only have faith in something when there's a lack of evidence - no one has faith that gravity is real; It's a fact.
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Bobby2Hands said:
@Dick_Dawkins
We can all pull up pointless quotes from old white dudes, but I don't see how that will help the discussion.
tbh if i knew how to put in a captioned image my arguments would not be as thorough. Nevertheless, i prefer your brevity to my walls of text
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There is absolutely no reason why I should accept "turn your brain off" as a valid excuse to defend a poor show.
Now you're pointing the finger at me and blaming me?
So you certainly didn't raise the "I will kill you because you believe in God" flag but the "I will blame you because you believe in God" flag... I see what you did there...
What does your religion tell you about what happens to atheists after they die?
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Crusader_8 said:
_Ako_ said:
Now you're pointing the finger at me and blaming me?
So you certainly didn't raise the "I will kill you because you believe in God" flag but the "I will blame you because you believe in God" flag... I see what you did there...
What does your religion tell you about what happens to atheists after they die?
I dunno dude, they go to Heaven like anyone else. Unless if you don't pay the price that the church tells you to pay, you go to Hell.
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#43
11 hours ago
Crusader_8
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_Ako_ said:
I dunno dude, they go to Heaven like anyone else. Unless if you don't pay the price that the church tells you to pay, you go to Hell.
So youre a member of a club that condones a god that sends people to hell, regardless of whether theyre good people or not, if they havent paid some sort of price? You condone this belief and believe that i deserve hell unless i follow your club's rules?
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There is absolutely no reason why I should accept "turn your brain off" as a valid excuse to defend a poor show.
I dunno dude, they go to Heaven like anyone else. Unless if you don't pay the price that the church tells you to pay, you go to Hell.
So youre a member of a club that condones a god that sends people to hell, regardless of whether theyre good people or not, if they havent paid some sort of price? You condone this belief and believe that i deserve hell unless i follow your club's rules?
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Crusader_8 said:
_Ako_ said:
I dunno dude, they go to Heaven like anyone else. Unless if you don't pay the price that the church tells you to pay, you go to Hell.
So youre a member of a club that condones a god that sends people to hell, regardless of whether theyre good people or not, if they havent paid some sort of price? You condone this belief and believe that i deserve hell unless i follow your club's rules?
Ehhh... Don't worry I didn't paid the Heaven Pass so I'm sure as heck will be in Hell. Only the 1% can afford it. Truly expensive. I suggest that you don't pay it too.
You don't deserve Hell, since there's still Purgatory.
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So youre a member of a club that condones a god that sends people to hell, regardless of whether theyre good people or not, if they havent paid some sort of price? You condone this belief and believe that i deserve hell unless i follow your club's rules?
Ehhh... Don't worry I didn't paid the Heaven Pass so I'm sure as heck will be in Hell. Only the 1% can afford it. Truly expensive. I suggest that you don't pay it too.
Are you...are you in a cult?
It sounds kinda like you're in a cult.
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Ehhh... Don't worry I didn't paid the Heaven Pass so I'm sure as heck will be in Hell. Only the 1% can afford it. Truly expensive. I suggest that you don't pay it too.
Are you...are you in a cult?
It sounds kinda like you're in a cult.
Come on, it's not like I'm saying you should join me... xD
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#48
11 hours ago
Crusader_8
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_Ako_ said:
]
Ehhh... Don't worry I didn't paid the Heaven Pass so I'm sure as heck will be in Hell. Only the 1% can afford it. Truly expensive. I suggest that you don't pay it too.
You don't deserve Hell, since there's still Purgatory.
If you dont believe i deserve hell, your personal belief and the tenet of your religion are in contradiction. How do you normally resolve a contradiction between your conscience and what your religion tells you to think?
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Well, a burning bush in the desert would be a good start. But even supposing god exists, I wouldn't want to worship him. Evidence defies the very purpose of unconditionally accepting him as my savior. He exists ergo I love him? What a riot.
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Ehhh... Don't worry I didn't paid the Heaven Pass so I'm sure as heck will be in Hell. Only the 1% can afford it. Truly expensive. I suggest that you don't pay it too.
You don't deserve Hell, since there's still Purgatory.
If you dont believe i deserve hell, your personal belief and the tenet of your religion are in contradiction. How do you normally resolve a contradiction between your conscience and what your religion tells you to think?
Well simple. I don't think about it, I go on in my life like I always does. I neither care what people believe in, whether they value God or don't. We are all humans, at some point we'll die.
"If you don't believe I deserve hell, your personal belief and the tenet of your religion are in contradiction."
Wait. Are you saying just because I am catholic that I should follow it? The heck you saying dude?
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AnimeEyedJones | Feb 4, 8:17 PM
I sometimes wish that when I'm not in my room, all my anime figures come to life like that in toy story, so I treat them all as people in hopes that one day they wont be afraid and will come to life and talk to me :3
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As Hume says on miracles, they're just first person and hearsay to everyone else. So if you witnessed a miracle would you believe in the supernatural? No matter how strong the evidence, would people then be justified on rejecting the evidence completely in favour of a natural explanation?
A lot of people use Einstein as an example to promote deism, since deism appears to be a more sensible position then atheism itself. But why an atheist would use Einstein is beyond me. After all, he said it's due to the complex order of the universe that he believes in God not as a personal God. Surely that just sends the word fallacy shooting up the atheists brain.
I've heard atheists give arguments for why they don't believe including asking people to define God. Since we can only define God's attribute, "a creator", (which is a noun anyway) that makes God an inconceivable notion. I found this just strengthens the existence of God however.
These are just some examples, so atheists, what would it take for you to believe, and how strongly are you convicted to atheism?
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Trance said:
I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man.
#2
Today, 7:19 AM
Clebardman
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I'm not going to believe in a god. See, the problem with monotheistic religions, is that they'd be a little bit more credible if they weren't so many claiming to be the one true faith :-3.
"miracle" lol, there's no such thing as a miracle.
Polytheism is a hundred times less stupid and oppressive than monotheism, sadly it's a meh thought control tool, that's why it disappeared. Dunno what would be my stance on the subject if I had been born 2 thousand years ago.
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#3
Today, 7:34 AM
Itsuharo
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Nothing will make me believe in God its either you present me a solid 100% proof that God is in fact real or i will not change my mind.
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#4
Today, 7:35 AM
Interrrrrpetgyu
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God existing. Believing in something you can't see is a mental illness.
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#5
Today, 7:35 AM
Darek
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My waifu becoming real would be enough of a miracle to make me believe.
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Saediss said:
#OnlyFapToTrap
Its not gay if the dick is cute.
#6
Today, 7:36 AM
Bobby2Hands
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How about god just shows himself? Seems simple enough to me.
How about he appears in the minds of everyone on the planet and says "hey, god here, just thought I would let you know that I created the universe and all of you, if you could please go ahead and follow the one true correct religion Mormonism that would be great thanks"
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#7
Today, 7:38 AM
Milennin
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What exactly defines a miracle? It can mean a lot of different things. Regardless, if something unexplainable would happen, it might as well just be seen as a glitch in the matrix. I don't see why there needs to be a god involved in it.
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#8
Today, 7:45 AM
Crusader_8
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Evidence. And a falsifiable theory that describes why the existence of a god is necessary to effectively describe reality.
The age-old issue with the idea of a god being the creator of existence is that it has no predictive or explanatory power.
Imagine a crime scene that you stumbled upon, and when you ask the detective what happened he just replies "i believe a guy named Fred did it." Your reaction may justifiably be, "thats great and all but how do you know fred did it?" Because belief in a guy named Fred doesn't explain anything about the crime scene other than who. And the other guy's title as detective is insufficient to accept his Fred claim as true. In almost every crime show or movie, the what and how are more important than the who - most shows have a "we got the wrong guy!" twist in the middle. You would be highly suspicious of a detective who just blames crimes on a guy named Fred without proper evidence and justification.
So what boggles me as an atheist is why we don't hold god claims to the same standard that we hold Fred claims.
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#9
Today, 7:55 AM
kamalashki
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im more of an agnostic person
and what u say if i would believe in god if a miracle happened
nah
it takes a lot more than that because i often think of miracles as pure luck
and we all know luck is a factor in skill
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#10
Today, 8:22 AM
Deknijff
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Honestly I don't think there is anything that would make me believe
I was thinking at first maybe if a God would come down to me and speak to me directly then yeah sure I would believe
but then I thought to myself no wait I'd probably go to a doctor to have my brain scanned to find out why I was having crazy visions
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The second you say Toradora is better than Shakugan no Shana is the moment it becomes harder for me to take you seriously
but I like both shows just saying
Some mistake me for a M but Im actually a S
People think I have a thing for pink hair but thats just a coincidence when it comes to my favourites
#11
Today, 8:22 AM
Crusader_8
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Im not even sure why believers are fixated on the idea that miracles are somehow convincing. Define miracle, define what makes a miracle possible, then present evidence that miracles happen. Most claimed miracles thus far were either confirmed to not have happened, or upon investigation were revealed to have a 100% natural explanation.
This reminds me of ghost hunters who tell themselves that EM detectors indicate ghost activity - which published study, exactly, confirmed that in the first place? Lol
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#12
Today, 8:26 AM
Zelev
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I'm agnostic, in a sense. I believe in "karma," or the "universe," which is often synonymous with God. Do I believe in Heaven and Hell? Probably not, or at least I think "Hell" is more of a guilt mechanism than anything else. I've heard of miracle stories from Christians, and assuming they're not lying, I believe them. I think one of the natural laws of the universe is you believing/the vibe that you give off and it being sent back to you, which kind of ties into karma. For example, if you have a positive attitude, you're more likely to have a good day and vice versa for a bad attitude - it's just the vibe you give off, and sometimes people can pick up on these vibes and may be attracted to you/stay away from you. That's just how the universe works - some people call it God via praying/believing. Overall, I think it's the same thing basically.
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#13
Today, 8:38 AM
Dick_Dawkins
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@Bobby2Hands What if the cosmological argument is sound, and you've instead listened to satan who has said to you "It's a fallacious argument, no reason to believe".
@Crusader_8 We can't define it other than something that shouldn't occur due to our understanding of the laws of nature. Ones that have been explained haven't been due to lack of understanding of our universe, it's just that the "miracle" itself distracts us and we get focussed on how pretty it is, or luck and probability etc.
A clear understanding of how an event would pan out due to our natural laws makes a miracle all the more plausible.
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Trance said:
I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man.
#14
Today, 9:02 AM
Maou_heika
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I became an Atheist after seeing all the rubbish that goes on within religions. My parents are staunch believers in Christianity and they annoy me to no end. They used to take me to these "healing prayers" and healers or sometimes even call them over to our house. All these healers, priests and nuns are just shitty people who don't even practice what they preach. A lot of them used say that I have evil spirits within me and do their crappy prayers then ask my parents to leave the room and say some shitty stuff which I never even did and tell me that they'll lock me in a cage or tell my parents that only whipping will drive the devil out of me. My idiotic parents would even and sometimes even now put some pieces of paper under my bed with some weird scribbling. I was studying in a convent school and they were pretty strict about "religion", I'd always end up in the Principal's office for not attending Sunday school and being threatened about deducting marks from internals. I really hate those people who go on with their "Jesus Jesus" crap, seeing a bible or cross annoys me to no end because it reminds me of those religious hypocrites who keep on advising my parents to beat me or throw me out of the house and stuff. My mother calls me the devil because I don't attend mass and says things like "why did God give me a devil like you", "who asked you to be born" and tells me to die.
Nothing in this world can get me to believe and follow, specially when it comes to Christianity. If a God does exist then I hate him for making me.
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#15
Today, 9:09 AM
Crusader_8
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I can safely conclude youre putting the cart before the horse as far as miracles go. Miracle claims are very similar to god claims and Fred claims; it requires an insufficient understanding of the facts and an unwillingness to answer a question with "i dont know."
Take some ridiculous event, like closing your eyes then opening them to see there's suddenly a couple dozen frogs around your feet briefly sitting in a pattern that reads "god." Admittedly difficult to personally investigate what you just saw, but why would you make a truth claim by declaring a violation of physics occured when you know so little about what happened?
Nothing defies the laws of nature. If something appears to do so, it just means we had those laws wrong. Take for instance how Newtonian understanding of gravity still couldn't explain many things before Einstein's general relativity came along. And there are certain things we're observing now that defy relativity. Miracles? Of course not, it just means relativity may have it wrong.
You also presuppose that an occurence that is described as miraculous is defying any laws of nature to begin with. There was a recorded instance of a mother very briefly lifting a car up to save a child. While some people were quick to call that a miracle, science showed us that's actually possible though rare.
It's almost absurd that i have to spell out a step-by-step to approaching potential "miracles," because no one even has any business jumping to such conclusions. But here we go:
1. Take time to fully understand what happened.
2. Identify why the event seems unusual or unlikely.
3. Observe surroundings and ask questions. Could the event be chemical? Physical? Is it possible the event could be replicated by people?
4. If not alone, ask others what they saw/heard. Be as open-ended as possible in questions to prevent planting the idea of a miracle in their head (doing so will just make them leap to that conclusion if they didnt already). Differing testimonies over the same event suggest a possible exaggeration or inconsistency of supposed facts regarding the event, meaning the event may in fact not be as spectacular as one imagined.
5. Recognize that brain is awful at forming memories and is very subjective. Find ways to investigate the event that eliminate human subjectivity and human error.
6. If you cannot determine a natural cause to the event, or can't effectively demonstrate that the event wasnt extremely unusual, then you just have one proper conclusion: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.
If you find yourself tempted to declare "miracle" by step 6, then you suffer from a gaps fallacy which you are willing to make supernatural truth claims about stuff that is unknowable or currently unknown. If you tell me X is a miracle, I'm going to ask "how do you know it is a miracle? What have you done to detrmine the validity of that claim?" This is where miracle claims typically crumble.
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#16
Today, 9:17 AM
Crusader_8
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Maou_heika said:
I became an Atheist after seeing all the rubbish that goes on within religions. My parents are staunch believers in Christianity and they annoy me to no end. They used to take me to these "healing prayers" and healers or sometimes even call them over to our house. All these healers, priests and nuns are just shitty people who don't even practice what they preach. A lot of them used say that I have evil spirits within me and do their crappy prayers then ask my parents to leave the room and say some shitty stuff which I never even did and tell me that they'll lock me in a cage or tell my parents that only whipping will drive the devil out of me. My idiotic parents would even and sometimes even now put some pieces of paper under my bed with some weird scribbling. I was studying in a convent school and they were pretty strict about "religion", I'd always end up in the Principal's office for not attending Sunday school and being threatened about deducting marks from internals. I really hate those people who go on with their "Jesus Jesus" crap, seeing a bible or cross annoys me to no end because it reminds me of those religious hypocrites who keep on advising my parents to beat me or throw me out of the house and stuff. My mother calls me the devil because I don't attend mass and says things like "why did God give me a devil like you", "who asked you to be born" and tells me to die.
Nothing in this world can get me to believe and follow, specially when it comes to Christianity. If a God does exist then I hate him for making me.
These are the stories I think of when people ask me "what's the harm?"
Im sorry that religion has made your life tough. Living without religion is for many even harder due to the ridicule and stigma from not understanding that some people value truth over faith.
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#17
Today, 9:26 AM
Dick_Dawkins
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I agree it depends whether the miracle be more likely caused by a lack of understanding of either the chemical or physical.
Of course the problem is also that as reasonable as your last paragraph is made out to be, it can also be very unreasonable as by definition a miracle cannot be tested only shown to defeat every natural explanation we can give. You are justified in either claiming it a miracle and saying you don't know.
"Im sorry that religion has made your life tough. Living without religion is for many even harder due to the ridicule and stigma from not understanding that some people value truth over faith.."
This is the exact opposite for me and many others. I believe history has been completely twisted and ignored by atheists so they can supress religion.
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Trance said:
I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man.
#18
Today, 9:28 AM
Deknijff
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I don't know why but I felt this was a good video to share for those that might not of heard of it
I felt this was also a good video
I wanted to post the Religulous documentary from Bill Maher but there was no video I could find with good quality sadly
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Quick facts about me
The second you say Toradora is better than Shakugan no Shana is the moment it becomes harder for me to take you seriously
but I like both shows just saying
Some mistake me for a M but Im actually a S
People think I have a thing for pink hair but thats just a coincidence when it comes to my favourites
#19
Today, 9:38 AM
JustALEX
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It's so very very simple.
Evidence.
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#20
Today, 9:43 AM
NoobAsian
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That I'd get 72 female virgins when I die
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#21
Today, 9:58 AM
tsuyokunaru
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It would take a miracle in more ways than one
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密室殺人はなぜ美しいのか。
#22
Today, 9:59 AM
Rinar
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Posts: 439
Existing would be nice or maybe he's just afk all the time. I don't need someone else in my life I have to care about that won't care about me anyway. Btw your sig is cringy, god is supposed to be everywhere, there's not more of him in america, like, that's what omnipotence is about lol.
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#23
Today, 10:10 AM
Bobby2Hands
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Rinar said:
Existing would be nice or maybe he's just afk all the time. I don't need someone else in my life I have to care about that won't care about me anyway. Btw your sig is cringy, god is supposed to be everywhere, there's not more of him in america, like, that's what omnipotence is about lol.
You shouldn't expect any less from Ray Comfort, the guy is a drooling idiot.
Here, watch him "prove" the existence of god using a banana.
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#24
Today, 10:57 AM
Rellexia
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Scientific proof stronger than the theories already proposed. A "miracle" could just be attributed to science we haven't discovered or fully understand yet, as it so often has been shown in the past.
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#25
Today, 11:08 AM
Crusader_8
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Dick_Dawkins said:
I agree it depends whether the miracle be more likely caused by a lack of understanding of either the chemical or physical.
Of course the problem is also that as reasonable as your last paragraph is made out to be, it can also be very unreasonable as by definition a miracle cannot be tested only shown to defeat every natural explanation we can give. You are justified in either claiming it a miracle and saying you don't know.
"Im sorry that religion has made your life tough. Living without religion is for many even harder due to the ridicule and stigma from not understanding that some people value truth over faith.."
This is the exact opposite for me and many others. I believe history has been completely twisted and ignored by atheists so they can supress religion.
I made a point earlier that by defining a miracle as something untestable, you gap-fallacy your position. No one should take your belief in miracles seriously as a result. It can either be defined in a testable way, or it doesnt exist. If youre going to present rational arguments, understand that youre the one that claims miracles exist so you have the burden of proof. By saying "by definitoon it cannot be tested" is a glib way of saying "by definition it cannot be defined." Because how do we define the natural world? Empirically.
By the way, you make an interesting claim that atheists suppress religion. Is there evidence for that? I know there's a lot of evidence of multiple organizations coming into power both in europe, middle east, and russia which had so much power by the middle ages that their leaders essentially chose who would be king or queen of multiple nations. These organizations also had a strong influence in dictating what was allowed to be read and taught. Their power was so strong that it was a crime to not be in their club, which the sentence would often be death. You wouldnt happen to know any organization like that, would you?
Oh yeah. The church. Oops. Dont tell me that atheists have so much power that your religion couldnt dominate the conversation for 1800 years?
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#26
Today, 11:17 AM
_Ako_
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Well having a faith is a good thing, so I don't know, maybe someday they will find the light they seek too.
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#27
Today, 11:25 AM
Bobby2Hands
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_Ako_ said:
Well having a faith is a good thing, so I don't know, maybe someday they will find the light they seek too.
Faith is not a good thing, it is blindly accepting something that you don't have any evidence for. And yeah...no, I'm not "seeking the light" or any other cliched nonsense phrases. I just don't buy that magical beings such as gods exist.
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#28
Today, 11:26 AM
_Ako_
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Bobby2Hands said:
_Ako_ said:
Well having a faith is a good thing, so I don't know, maybe someday they will find the light they seek too.
Yeah...I'm not "seeking the light" or any other cliched nonsense phrases.
I just don't buy that magical beings such as gods exist.
Well I dunno dude, I mean if you believe that there's no God, you might as well acknowledge those who believes in God not just kill them...
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#29
Today, 11:30 AM
Bobby2Hands
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_Ako_ said:
Bobby2Hands said:
Expand quote
Yeah...I'm not "seeking the light" or any other cliched nonsense phrases.
I just don't buy that magical beings such as gods exist.
Well I dunno dude, I mean if you believe that there's no God, you might as well acknowledge those who believes in God not just kill them...
I do acknowledge those who believe in god and I certainly don't kill them...what are you even talking about?
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#30
Today, 11:32 AM
_Ako_
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Bobby2Hands said:
_Ako_ said:
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Well I dunno dude, I mean if you believe that there's no God, you might as well acknowledge those who believes in God not just kill them...
I do acknowledge those who believe in god and I certainly don't kill them...what are you even talking about?
Ohhh good, now we cleared the "I will kill you because you believe in God" flag... xD
Isn't there a lot of back-and-forth hate between catholic and atheist?
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#31
Today, 11:34 AM
Crusader_8
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Even if having faith was a virtue (which it is not), faith can't assess the truth value of a god claim. Bobby2hands already explained what faith is so there you go
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#32
Today, 11:37 AM
Crusader_8
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_Ako_ said:
Bobby2Hands said:
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I do acknowledge those who believe in god and I certainly don't kill them...what are you even talking about?
Ohhh good, now we cleared the "I will kill you because you believe in God" flag... xD
Isn't there a lot of back-and-forth hate between catholic and atheist?
there is little to no history of atheists killing christians. There is plenty of history which shows us that atheism was a crime punishable by death.
Youre the ones that distrust us. Youre the ones who killed us for centuries just for questioning your book. Youre the ones that believe we're evil. You believe everything your book claims about us.
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#33
Today, 11:39 AM
_Ako_
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Crusader_8 said:
_Ako_ said:
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Ohhh good, now we cleared the "I will kill you because you believe in God" flag... xD
Isn't there a lot of back-and-forth hate between catholic and atheist?
there is little to no history of atheists killing christians. There is plenty of history which shows us that atheism was a crime punishable by death.
Youre the ones that distrust us. Youre the ones who killed us for centuries just for questioning your book. Youre the ones that believe we're evil. You believe everything your book claims about us.
Now you're pointing the finger at me and blaming me?
So you certainly didn't raise the "I will kill you because you believe in God" flag but the "I will blame you because you believe in God" flag... I see what you did there...
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#34
12 hours ago
razortongue
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If he decided to show himself then I'd have no choice but to believe. That being said I still wouldn't worship him though.
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#35
12 hours ago
Dick_Dawkins
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Crusader_8 said:
Dick_Dawkins said:
I agree it depends whether the miracle be more likely caused by a lack of understanding of either the chemical or physical.
Of course the problem is also that as reasonable as your last paragraph is made out to be, it can also be very unreasonable as by definition a miracle cannot be tested only shown to defeat every natural explanation we can give. You are justified in either claiming it a miracle and saying you don't know.
"Im sorry that religion has made your life tough. Living without religion is for many even harder due to the ridicule and stigma from not understanding that some people value truth over faith.."
This is the exact opposite for me and many others. I believe history has been completely twisted and ignored by atheists so they can supress religion.
I made a point earlier that by defining a miracle as something untestable, you gap-fallacy your position. No one should take your belief in miracles seriously as a result. It can either be defined in a testable way, or it doesnt exist. If youre going to present rational arguments, understand that youre the one that claims miracles exist so you have the burden of proof. By saying "by definitoon it cannot be tested" is a glib way of saying "by definition it cannot be defined." Because how do we define the natural world? Empirically.
By the way, you make an interesting claim that atheists suppress religion. Is there evidence for that? I know there's a lot of evidence of multiple organizations coming into power both in europe, middle east, and russia which had so much power by the middle ages that their leaders essentially chose who would be king or queen of multiple nations. These organizations also had a strong influence in dictating what was allowed to be read and taught. Their power was so strong that it was a crime to not be in their club, which the sentence would often be death. You wouldnt happen to know any organization like that, would you?
Oh yeah. The church. Oops. Dont tell me that atheists have so much power that your religion couldnt dominate the conversation for 1800 years?
The definition isn't necessarily a problem. How do we define humanity? By goodness among humans? Nope that's all just attributes, but we recognise "humanity" as existing.
You could also say the universe has always existed. Someone would be justified in saying yes in a metaphysical sense, just as much as you'd be justified in giving a nature of the gaps fallacy and saying, well no there'll be a natural explanation.
Wouldn't you agree that if a God exists and when you'd ask "you should have given us testable evidence" he'd just respond, what are you even talking about?.
As for history, all the common tropes "the church has been a persecutor", "they believed the earth was flat", "religion held back science" etc. These are all memes at best.
@Bobby2hands
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I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man.
#36
12 hours ago
Bobby2Hands
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@Dick_Dawkins
We can all pull up pointless quotes from old white dudes, but I don't see how that will help the discussion.
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#37
12 hours ago
Dick_Dawkins
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@Bobby2hands It might help you admit what you'd need to see as evidence. Also I was drunk when I said that. What I meant to say was Hitler is my God, and atheism is my virtue.
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Trance said:
I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man.
#38
12 hours ago
Bobby2Hands
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Dick_Dawkins said:
@Bobby2hands It might help you admit what you'd need to see as evidence.
Pretty sure I already told you that in my first post.
Bobby2Hands said:
How about god just shows himself? Seems simple enough to me.
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#39
11 hours ago
Crusader_8
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Dick_Dawkins said:
The definition isn't necessarily a problem. How do we define humanity? By goodness among humans? Nope that's all just attributes, but we recognise "humanity" as existing.
You could also say the universe has always existed. Someone would be justified in saying yes in a metaphysical sense, just as much as you'd be justified in giving a nature of the gaps fallacy and saying, well no there'll be a natural explanation.
Wouldn't you agree that if a God exists and when you'd ask "you should have given us testable evidence" he'd just respond, what are you even talking about?.
As for history, all the common tropes "the church has been a persecutor", "they believed the earth was flat", "religion held back science" etc. These are all memes at best. ]
Defining humanity is an improper comparison because your usage of the term humanity is metaphysical, in other words as a concept. Like the word culture. But even then those words have clear usages but since they are not physical things, they dont need to be empirical. A miracle, whatever it may be, is claimed by you to be an event that takes place in reality. Therefore, it has to be empirically definable. Stop trying to shove miracles into the gap closet to make it easier to defend, especially after ive given you so many opportunities to reconsider your approach. I've half a mind to accuse you of direct rudeness for using the exact same argument three or four times now, as it suggests youre straight-up ignoring me at this point.
Im not sure how claiming the universe having always existed could be in a metaphysical sense, but im not going to bother addressing it because it has nothing to do with your claim that miracles exist but somehow cant be defined. We're not talking about universes, if we were then you can bring it up all you like.
I wouldn't claim to know how a god would respond to anything i'd say. If there was a god and if he is even a tenth as capricious and evil as he is in the bible, i wouldnt have anything to say to it that could be repeated here.
Setting aside that you used the word "tropes" incorrectly, there's actually evidence of what you call "memes." And since you seem to be pulling out videos and images to argue in your place... Did you know that religion's attempt to refute such "memes" have all been thoroughly debunked? For example, lots of apologists claim that the church promoted science, when in fact they did but only when it didnt threaten their power. Which at that point is not a promotion of science. Heck, it took the catholic church forever just to accept aristotle's scientific works... And even then by that point a lot of his works were already discovered to have been wrong. The only other time the church promoted science was when it could be used to either further their authority or be directly used toward religious works. This is why all the most rapid scientific advancements have come in the last two centuries, when the church's power was fading and secularism was rising.
If you wish to be honest with yourself, read quotes and books of things that disprove your position instead of just looking for captioned images that you agree with. Do you really think you can prove a god exists by showing us quotes of what other people's opinions are on it? So what if einstein believed in god - that's not evidence for your case! So what if lennox asserts that faith is rational - he's wrong! You can only have faith in something when there's a lack of evidence - no one has faith that gravity is real; It's a fact.
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#40
11 hours ago
Crusader_8
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Bobby2Hands said:
@Dick_Dawkins
We can all pull up pointless quotes from old white dudes, but I don't see how that will help the discussion.
tbh if i knew how to put in a captioned image my arguments would not be as thorough. Nevertheless, i prefer your brevity to my walls of text
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#41
11 hours ago
Crusader_8
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_Ako_ said:
Now you're pointing the finger at me and blaming me?
So you certainly didn't raise the "I will kill you because you believe in God" flag but the "I will blame you because you believe in God" flag... I see what you did there...
What does your religion tell you about what happens to atheists after they die?
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#42
11 hours ago
_Ako_
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Crusader_8 said:
_Ako_ said:
Now you're pointing the finger at me and blaming me?
So you certainly didn't raise the "I will kill you because you believe in God" flag but the "I will blame you because you believe in God" flag... I see what you did there...
What does your religion tell you about what happens to atheists after they die?
I dunno dude, they go to Heaven like anyone else. Unless if you don't pay the price that the church tells you to pay, you go to Hell.
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#43
11 hours ago
Crusader_8
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_Ako_ said:
I dunno dude, they go to Heaven like anyone else. Unless if you don't pay the price that the church tells you to pay, you go to Hell.
So youre a member of a club that condones a god that sends people to hell, regardless of whether theyre good people or not, if they havent paid some sort of price? You condone this belief and believe that i deserve hell unless i follow your club's rules?
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#44
11 hours ago
Crusader_8
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_Ako_ said:
I dunno dude, they go to Heaven like anyone else. Unless if you don't pay the price that the church tells you to pay, you go to Hell.
So youre a member of a club that condones a god that sends people to hell, regardless of whether theyre good people or not, if they havent paid some sort of price? You condone this belief and believe that i deserve hell unless i follow your club's rules?
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#45
11 hours ago
_Ako_
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Crusader_8 said:
_Ako_ said:
I dunno dude, they go to Heaven like anyone else. Unless if you don't pay the price that the church tells you to pay, you go to Hell.
So youre a member of a club that condones a god that sends people to hell, regardless of whether theyre good people or not, if they havent paid some sort of price? You condone this belief and believe that i deserve hell unless i follow your club's rules?
Ehhh... Don't worry I didn't paid the Heaven Pass so I'm sure as heck will be in Hell. Only the 1% can afford it. Truly expensive. I suggest that you don't pay it too.
You don't deserve Hell, since there's still Purgatory.
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#46
11 hours ago
Bobby2Hands
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_Ako_ said:
Crusader_8 said:
Expand quote
So youre a member of a club that condones a god that sends people to hell, regardless of whether theyre good people or not, if they havent paid some sort of price? You condone this belief and believe that i deserve hell unless i follow your club's rules?
Ehhh... Don't worry I didn't paid the Heaven Pass so I'm sure as heck will be in Hell. Only the 1% can afford it. Truly expensive. I suggest that you don't pay it too.
Are you...are you in a cult?
It sounds kinda like you're in a cult.
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#47
11 hours ago
_Ako_
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Bobby2Hands said:
_Ako_ said:
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Ehhh... Don't worry I didn't paid the Heaven Pass so I'm sure as heck will be in Hell. Only the 1% can afford it. Truly expensive. I suggest that you don't pay it too.
Are you...are you in a cult?
It sounds kinda like you're in a cult.
Come on, it's not like I'm saying you should join me... xD
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#48
11 hours ago
Crusader_8
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_Ako_ said:
]
Ehhh... Don't worry I didn't paid the Heaven Pass so I'm sure as heck will be in Hell. Only the 1% can afford it. Truly expensive. I suggest that you don't pay it too.
You don't deserve Hell, since there's still Purgatory.
If you dont believe i deserve hell, your personal belief and the tenet of your religion are in contradiction. How do you normally resolve a contradiction between your conscience and what your religion tells you to think?
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#49
11 hours ago
Ratohnhaketon
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Well, a burning bush in the desert would be a good start. But even supposing god exists, I wouldn't want to worship him. Evidence defies the very purpose of unconditionally accepting him as my savior. He exists ergo I love him? What a riot.
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#50
11 hours ago
_Ako_
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Crusader_8 said:
_Ako_ said:
]
Ehhh... Don't worry I didn't paid the Heaven Pass so I'm sure as heck will be in Hell. Only the 1% can afford it. Truly expensive. I suggest that you don't pay it too.
You don't deserve Hell, since there's still Purgatory.
If you dont believe i deserve hell, your personal belief and the tenet of your religion are in contradiction. How do you normally resolve a contradiction between your conscience and what your religion tells you to think?
Well simple. I don't think about it, I go on in my life like I always does. I neither care what people believe in, whether they value God or don't. We are all humans, at some point we'll die.
"If you don't believe I deserve hell, your personal belief and the tenet of your religion are in contradiction."
Wait. Are you saying just because I am catholic that I should follow it? The heck you saying dude?
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