| Can it make a full turn? Can characters from Saiunkoku suddenly become manly? |
| Depends on what your perception on what is manly, and then your perception on the item itself and what could make it manly. |
| Something cool to be placed here in the near future. |
| no |
| No. But manly stuff may be girly to allow girls to wield it: e.g. http://www.kittyhell.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/hello-kitty-assault-rifle.thumbnail.jpg |
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| No. |
| A past can last a lifetime. How to Read Manga! | AnimeBytes | iMangaScans |
| I ague that Utena is so girly it's manly! |
ArtRodriguez said: Can it make a full turn? Can characters from Saiunkoku suddenly become manly? NEVER! Give me one example of where that has ever happened? |
| The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. --- Carl Sagan |
| No to the original question. |
JH said: ArtRodriguez said: Can it make a full turn? Can characters from Saiunkoku suddenly become manly? NEVER! Give me one example of where that has ever happened? I want to say Otomen, but everyone is going to disagree, but I thought Otomen did it pretty well. He bakes cakes and kicks ass. |
| Well I happen to be a fan of Elfen Lied, yeah I know, but I think that the show, although it rather girl centered, it's still incredibly manly. Same goes for Gunslinger Girl, now if you're talking about girly stuff like Moe and shit ... ehh, maybe. I mean Tenchi Universe is super-moe but it has lightsabers and shit and who here doesn't think lightsabers are manly? The big maybe gets my vote. |
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| The thing is, girly is by the very definition of the word not manly. This is a fallacy, when you know something to be a priori false, the same way you can't say someone can be so blind he has good vision (citing from my logics book here). Girly, which I take to mean girlish, "of, relating to, or having the characteristics of a girl or girlhood". Manly, however, means "1 : having qualities generally associated with a man : strong, virile 2 : appropriate in character to a man <manly sports>" Although it is indeed possible for a girl to be manly, and it is indeed possible for a man to be girly, it is absolutely impossible for girly and manly to apply to the same thing simultaneously. |
| A past can last a lifetime. How to Read Manga! | AnimeBytes | iMangaScans |
| so GARmoe is not what he's asking for? |
 |
ArtRodriguez said: JH said: ArtRodriguez said: Can it make a full turn? Can characters from Saiunkoku suddenly become manly? NEVER! Give me one example of where that has ever happened? I want to say Otomen, but everyone is going to disagree, but I thought Otomen did it pretty well. He bakes cakes and kicks ass. wait ... you have a man who bakes and because he cooks, he's NOT suppose to be manly? Need to update that thinking. People who can cook/bake and are still manly Matsushiro, Ken Chef (from South Park) Tenchi Jet Black Piccolo and I believe Ippo can too 0o Yes, I know traditionally baking isn't seem as manly but I don't believe it's excusively girly either. |
| The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. --- Carl Sagan |
FALLEN101 said: Well I happen to be a fan of Elfen Lied, yeah I know, but I think that the show, although it rather girl centered, it's still incredibly manly. Same goes for Gunslinger Girl, now if you're talking about girly stuff like Moe and shit ... ehh, maybe. I mean Tenchi Universe is super-moe but it has lightsabers and shit and who here doesn't think lightsabers are manly? The big maybe gets my vote. Fallen, I believe you're touching on the point that sylvanelite, already stated. No! but manly stuff can be disguised as girly stuff for girls to wield it Gunslinger Girls and Elfen Lied is manly but it centers around girls so they can get that audience too. They already know we'll watch shit with action in it. Now if you throw in a couple of girl characters then you MAY get women to watch it too. Same with Tenchi. I think, Tenchi is bad ass. Think about it. He has 6 ... yes I said 6 girls chasing after him and as you said, he has a bad ass light saber too. Not to mention a space battle ever now and then. Well ... if you're watching Tenchi Universe. The other Tenchis are crap. Tenchi Muyo OVA is nice for a first-time watch once comedy. and Tenchi in Tokyo was just plain diarrhea. Now if you're talking about MOE MOE! Then hell no. |
| The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. --- Carl Sagan |
| Tenchi is not manly. I'm sorry but true men love em and leave em or seek to get them back from the bad guys. There are no manly male characters in moe shows that I know of, only manly chicks like Ryoko. Having said that, no, girly stuff can't double back like "So bad its good" movies. Now manly stuff can be a little fruity like Benton in Cyber City Oedo or geometry Man in Hokuto no Ken. |
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| But maybe it's like the double negative thing, if it's girly girliness, it becomes a manliness? Maybe..? |
| |
| I still argue for Utena that show is steeped in a girly motif, but the main character has more balls then most men ever, and of course a ton of sexual and male driven symbolism. |
| There are no manly male characters in moe shows that I know of, only manly chicks like Ryoko. Sugisaki Ken from Seitokai no Ichizon. The girls helped him get over his depression so now he's determined to make them his harem so he can make them all happy forever. It's kind of a moe show, but I think it's more along the lines of anime referential slice of life than straight OMG look how cute the girls are. |
| |
tranceotaku said: Tenchi is not manly. I'm sorry but true men love em and leave em or seek to get them back from the bad guys. There are no manly male characters in moe shows that I know of, only manly chicks like Ryoko. Having said that, no, girly stuff can't double back like "So bad its good" movies. Now manly stuff can be a little fruity like Benton in Cyber City Oedo or geometry Man in Hokuto no Ken. Well. I can say this for Tenchi. He doesn't take anybody's shit. Got to count for something. Love em and leave them lol He's got Ryoko. Wouldn't be so quick to leave that. |
| The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. --- Carl Sagan |
| Wait doesn't Tenchi take shit from each and every girl on that show? |
Brand said: Wait doesn't Tenchi take shit from each and every girl on that show? I'd also assume so, at least from what I've seen of the manga, hahah. As for MOE shows that have manly characters... I'd say Sousuke Sagara is pretty manly, and Full Metal Panic is definitely a MOE show. If you were to count School Rumble as MOE, I'd say it has a few manly characters as well. I'll go as far as claiming that the majority of MOE shows have at least one manly character, but it is a side character most of the time; for example, Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien, Taira Shinji was definitely manly. And good grief, I don't think I've ever had to type the word MOE so many times, ever. |
| A past can last a lifetime. How to Read Manga! | AnimeBytes | iMangaScans |
| they created such terms to describes/define such thing. don't try and confuse yourself by interchanging them. manly=is manly girly=is girly anything in between is gay. these terms are used to described the extremeness of a character, show, or situation. |
| but in the end it comes down to The Society of 'present' what is right 'today' can be 'wrong' tomorrow and vice versa but for now i agree with Frito and hope it stays like that during my short mortal life |
| No more shit then any man who has to live with a woman and he lives with several women. |
| The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. --- Carl Sagan |
| I have to agree, there is no way for something to be so girly it is manly. By our current definitions of the terms, it cannot happen. The analogous situation to this is the "so bad that its good" movie. However, the movie is never anything but bad, it is the experience that you have watching it that makes it good, often by riffing on it ala MST3K. Thus, we can say that nothing can be so girly that it is manly, at least based on our current definitions of the terms. |
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| @gwingfan: However, according to your theory a group of men watching a ridiculously girly show, like say some moe piece of shit like Lucky Star, could actually make the experience of watching the anime manly, correct? I mean the anime is nothing but girly but men could possibly make it manly by shouting obscinities at the screen or something, right? Also, totally off subject Gainax's many projects like Neon Genesis Evangelion, His and Her Circumstances, and This Ugly Yet Beautiful World, would you consider any of the above manly, or are they girly, or are they in between? |
| |
| I consider Ugly Yet Beautiful World to be utter garbage. Kare Kano was terrible as an anime series. I have not seen all of NGE yet so I can't comment. |
| Gainax.... they don't really produce manly anime. I wouldn't call any of their stuff girly either, in fact I doubt many girls would be able to watch them. It seems to me they mainly produce otaku-targeted anime. Stuff like Abenobashi Mahou Shoutengai, Mahoromatic, NGE, even Ebichu and TTGL..... I guess these are all manly in a way, though, as they don't try to paint the world in pink like Hollywood does. |
| A past can last a lifetime. How to Read Manga! | AnimeBytes | iMangaScans |
Frito said: they created such terms to describes/define such thing. don't try and confuse yourself by interchanging them. manly=is manly girly=is girly anything in between is gay. these terms are used to described the extremeness of a character, show, or situation. This. |
| @FALLEN101 I meant that the analogy to the movie that is "so bad its good" is a poor one, not that they are analogous to one another, I'm sorry if I didn't say that clearly enough and through that may have made my point less understandable... Let me try again... nothing can be so girly that it is manly... In the "analogous" situation of a group of manly men watching the girliest anime known to all mankind, the anime ITSELF would never be anything but girly, it would be the experience which would be manly, if anything... The anime itself would never be able to be manly, only the experience of watching it, and we can say that it can never be a truly manly experience to watch a girly show, even making fun of it, the fact that you are watching a girly show prevents the experience from ever being manly... Therefore the "analogy" to a movie being "so bad its good" is flawed, since the movie is never good, only our experience of watching it, and even then, the term "good" is a stretch... fun might be a better term... Is that any clearer? If not, I can try to elaborate even further... |
| |
| Yeah, you made yourself clearer although I got that from your first post, if you read my reply you'll see: (Italics added for emphasis) FALLEN101 said: @gwingfan: However, according to your theory a group of men watching a ridiculously girly show, like say some moe piece of shit like Lucky Star, could actually make the experience of watching the anime manly, correct? I know you were saying that a girly anime could never actually become manly but the experience possibly could, right? If I'm still missing it, I apologize but I don't think I am. (I know my last sentence in the previous post actually said it could 'make the anime manly', I meant the experience. Sorry for the mixup.) |
| |
| Don't worry about the mixup, it happens. I meant that the experience can't be manly, at least not in practice, and because of this, the analogy fails to apply. That being said, if we were to say that the experience were to ever be manly, it would most likely only be the case in theory. In practice it would be very hard, nearly impossible in fact, to have that happen. So I guess in theory yes the experience could be manly, but I don't think it is possible in practice. I think the true debate is this: If we were to say it is possible for the experience to be manly, how would it be made manly? I think this is the true question here, and I think it should be debated, since it gets right to the heart of what is manly. (I am even thinking of asking this question to one of the philosophy professors here at my school...) |
| |
Merridian said: Shoujo can be manly. No it can't. There's some stuff marked "josei" in the manga database that is very borderline manly, but that's about it. And as an admin of the "One Shot Fans" club, I've had to read an awful lot of shoujo. Some of which I liked, but isn't the least bit manly. Merridian said: a fifteen-year-old girl slapping the class president right in the mouth and storming off--if the scene is presented in such a way to suggest extreme-levels of awesome, I'd call it badass, and by proxy, manly. Yeah, when I read the bolded part, I was definitely thinking "badass" and "manly"...and not "lame", "passive-aggressive female histrionics", and "juvenile". Yep. And shit, if every time a heroine slaps someone in a shoujo comic is the hallmark for being manly, then I guess every fucking little girl comic ever written qualifies. |
Merridian said: But you haven't yet offered any reason as to why this is impossible, nor have you offered any definition for what constitutes "manliness". I'll certainly concede that a great deal of shoujo is "unmanly", but that doesn't mean that the genre itself lacks all capacity for "manliness" or "badass". I think it lies more in how the content is presented rather than what the content necessarily is. Nothing is "impossible"; I just have not seen any examples in the dozens upon dozens of shoujo manga I've read. And no, a girl slapping someone and walking away in a huff doesn't count. That's called "bitch is on PMS". If only you expanded your selection from shoujo (little girl comics) to josei (adult women comics), then you would have a number of borderline examples. Merridian said: And it's pretty clear that you've completely missed the point of what I was trying to say. What was the point, then? That a classic Ryoko Ikeda shoujo is somehow manly? By that criteria, I guess Cinderalla was, too. |
Merridian said: You even quoted it, and I'm not sure how to make it any clearer. Dezaki's use of color and composition really made otherwise innocuous scenes pretty damn awesome, despite the fact that the content portrayed was just high school drama crap. Why can't a shoujo be awesome without being manly? "Awesome" and "manly" are not even close to the same thing. And I have neither read the manga nor seen the anime for Oniisama (and don't intend to). However, I have read a couple of other works by the same author. (Claudine, Rose of Versailles) They're all gender bending shoujo with significant gay/transexual themes. It's well-written, and can be entertaining despite this, but it's not fucking manly. If you think it is, you probably think feather boas and pink tutus are, also. |
YoungVagabond said: Why can't a shoujo be awesome without being manly? "Awesome" and "manly" are not even close to the same thing. I concur, something can be rather girly and still be awesome. I hate to say it but the movie 500 Days of Summer was one of my top 3 favorite films that came out last year and it isn't in the least bit manly but it's still a good film. Same goes for the anime Elfen Lied, not really manly per say but awesome nonetheless. However I can see what Merridan is saying about the whole slapping bit being manly, there's a couple of movies where I can see something like that being manly. 300 had a scene that was like that to the max, when Leonitus's wife stabbed the senator and I clapped for that. Also in the most recent episode of The Mentalist, Jane gets slapped by his boss because he lied to her and told her that she was going to die, and she nearly knocked him out, I also thought that was pretty manly. But I have to say that not all slaps are manly at all, if it's a girl fight or over something utterly stupid, slapping is not manly at all. Also I've noticed that the discussions has started to become rather heated, try to make sure it stays a discussion and not a flame war. |
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Merridian said: YoungVagabond said: I defined manly as “badass” on grounds that men can enjoy the work based on the badassitude of the content or presentation. Oniisama E had a badass presentation. That’s all I’m saying.Why can't a shoujo be awesome without being manly? "Awesome" and "manly" are not even close to the same thing. Defining manliness is like defining what is cool or how the courts determine "obscenity"; you know it when you see it. Now, you can play the word game, and get Manly=Badass=Awesome=Girl slapping someone and walking off in a huff=Oniisama E...=classic shoujo with significant gay/transexual elements But most people would disagree that a gay/tranny heavy show or manga is manly, unless you meant "man love". |
| I agree that it is hard to define manliness, perhaps it is something that is up to each individual? |
| |
FALLEN101 said: @gwingfan: I agree with that statement to a certain extent, I think that to a point it's up to each individual but I also believe that there are certain things that everyone on the planet have to say are manly, such as, like it or not, the movie 300. The book "Gates of Fire", about the same battle, only told through the eyes of a Spartan helot (a serf who was born outside the city but served in their army), is a million times manlier, however. I thought 300 was a very fun, good movie, but man, the right screenplay based on that book would have made for one of the greatest films ever made. |
| I have actually read Gates of Fire and I pretty much have to agree, but when I was typing that comment, 300 was the first movie that popped into my head that I didn't think anyone would argue that much about the manliness factor in it. Perhaps Dirty Harry or something like that would have been a better choice... Anyway I was just trying to use it as an example, I personally am not a huge fan of the movie, it has its charms I guess, but honestly it's not really that good, a big budget B-movie and little more. |
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| Not entirely sure if this is a woman, due to a lot of heat on the author's site and comments from youtube users, but it is still manly nonetheless. |
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| Okay no, guys in drag doesn't count as so girly it's manly. There was a punk rocker, can't think of his name off the top of my head but I think he was the singer of MDC, anyway he would dress in fullblown drag and if anyone would say anything about it at the show, he'd kick the shit out of them. That's one of the things I love about punk rock, but it doesn't really fall into the category of so girly it's manly because there are some bands that do that that really are just girly, nothing manly about them. Although it does lead to a very interesting question, The Rocky Horror Picture Show, manly or girly or somewhere off the charts? |
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