Someone told me that it only gets "worse" after episode 3, can a LN reader spoil me on future developments?
New
Oct 18, 2023 4:50 PM
#51
Reply to LostSpectre
EleventhMS said:
Do people just choose to ignore what Misha says at the start of the conversation? She explicitly states that Claire reacting like that cause of what Rae has done is understandable. The prejudice is Claire reacting the moment Rae states that she's gay. Before that, she was still right next to her with no problem, but Claire explicitly reacted from the mention that she was gay, and not from the stuff Rae has done before.
Do people just choose to ignore what Misha says at the start of the conversation? She explicitly states that Claire reacting like that cause of what Rae has done is understandable. The prejudice is Claire reacting the moment Rae states that she's gay. Before that, she was still right next to her with no problem, but Claire explicitly reacted from the mention that she was gay, and not from the stuff Rae has done before.
That's such a stupid and forced explanation/reaction, though. It's also terrible from a narrative perspective because you're really going to lecture Claire on how she's stereotyping gay people when Rae is practically a walking stereotype? Is the moral here really that Claire should feel unsafe because Rae is a creep rather than Rae being gay? The fact Rae is gay has direct implications for Claire concerning Rae's behavior, therefore, it's technically justified for Claire to feel unsafe because Rae is gay.
This is the problem when mixing together contradictory tones.
How is it a forced reaction? Rae has made it quite known what she feels about Claire. When it was put into words though that she's gay, that's when Claire reacted which isn't really something forced cause stuff like that do happen. And Rae calls out herself that she shouldn't be doing what she does and that it's a coping mechanism. It's not something that is shown as fine. It's something that she has to work towards not doing. Claire's thoughts aren't her thinking about what Rae has done before. It's simply that Rae confirmed something that Claire in hindsight should have already known. Her thoughts were strictly that homosexuality was something unnatural. Again, Misha points out that specific reaction was the problem. She does not condone what Rae does to Claire as seen in previous episodes when she tries to reign Rae in whenever she goes too far. |
Oct 18, 2023 5:24 PM
#52
Hey, manga reader here. I really don't want to comment on wokeness or the politics of the LGBTQ+ community in Japan, but just within the story itself this conversation is important because it foreshadows two major future developments. The first is Rae's backstory (which likely won't be adapted unless the show gets a second season) and the second is why Claire was so quick to accept that there is nothing wrong with being lesbian (which will begin to be adapted this season, so without spoiling too much I will say that it seems like her initial views on love and sexuality are based on her noble upbringing, not her own feelings). If this sounds like something you want to watch, keep watching, but if this seems like something you don't want to watch, that's fine too. I hope this answers your question! |
Oct 18, 2023 5:25 PM
#53
I've read forward with the manga and watched the episodes that's been out so far. it seems that a lot of people are saying the execution is poor regarding the scene where Misha asks if Rae is gay. I, personally, didn't think it was executed poorly. I deeply appreciated the serious tone for a bit regarding these real issues. What Misha explained was about micro agressions regarding people's ignorance. I also believe that this issue in Japan is a lot less spoken off, so it did seem a bit "childish" the way they tried to explain it as well. Maybe it felt a bit poor for some people because they expected a wacky atmosphere through and through, but this anime/manga gets pretty real as we progress throughout the story. I believe people with less awareness of the LGBTQ+ community could greatly learn from that specific scene. Overall, if you're not into serious political discussions regarding economic classes, sexual orientation, and stigmas regarding status, then this anime may not be for you. I, myself, enjoy serious tones mixed with a lot of humor. PS. i would also like to point out that Rae is kind of a crazy predator in the first few episodes. I do believe she seems to have been like this because she's in an otome game and did what she wanted to do. Although throughout the story, she does calm down on her actions and reflect on them realizing she might be stuck in this world for a bit. |
NgliokOct 18, 2023 5:31 PM
Oct 18, 2023 6:15 PM
#54
Reply to EleventhMS
How is it a forced reaction? Rae has made it quite known what she feels about Claire. When it was put into words though that she's gay, that's when Claire reacted which isn't really something forced cause stuff like that do happen. And Rae calls out herself that she shouldn't be doing what she does and that it's a coping mechanism. It's not something that is shown as fine. It's something that she has to work towards not doing.
Claire's thoughts aren't her thinking about what Rae has done before. It's simply that Rae confirmed something that Claire in hindsight should have already known. Her thoughts were strictly that homosexuality was something unnatural. Again, Misha points out that specific reaction was the problem. She does not condone what Rae does to Claire as seen in previous episodes when she tries to reign Rae in whenever she goes too far.
Claire's thoughts aren't her thinking about what Rae has done before. It's simply that Rae confirmed something that Claire in hindsight should have already known. Her thoughts were strictly that homosexuality was something unnatural. Again, Misha points out that specific reaction was the problem. She does not condone what Rae does to Claire as seen in previous episodes when she tries to reign Rae in whenever she goes too far.
@EleventhMS I've read up to here in the LN, my point of view remains exactly the same, the logic is forced and unrealistic. Not to mention that it's just way too fucking awkward how on the nose it is when it comes to what Misha is lecturing Claire on, and you think it's a good thing that Rae is also a hypocrite in this regard, that just makes the whole damn thing messier if you ask me. I found this whole lecture to be so incredibly inorganic and fake, it doesn't remotely feel real for any other character besides Rae. |
LostSpectreOct 18, 2023 6:18 PM
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Oct 18, 2023 6:24 PM
#55
Reply to Ngliok
I've read forward with the manga and watched the episodes that's been out so far. it seems that a lot of people are saying the execution is poor regarding the scene where Misha asks if Rae is gay. I, personally, didn't think it was executed poorly. I deeply appreciated the serious tone for a bit regarding these real issues. What Misha explained was about micro agressions regarding people's ignorance. I also believe that this issue in Japan is a lot less spoken off, so it did seem a bit "childish" the way they tried to explain it as well. Maybe it felt a bit poor for some people because they expected a wacky atmosphere through and through, but this anime/manga gets pretty real as we progress throughout the story. I believe people with less awareness of the LGBTQ+ community could greatly learn from that specific scene. Overall, if you're not into serious political discussions regarding economic classes, sexual orientation, and stigmas regarding status, then this anime may not be for you. I, myself, enjoy serious tones mixed with a lot of humor.
PS. i would also like to point out that Rae is kind of a crazy predator in the first few episodes. I do believe she seems to have been like this because she's in an otome game and did what she wanted to do. Although throughout the story, she does calm down on her actions and reflect on them realizing she might be stuck in this world for a bit.
PS. i would also like to point out that Rae is kind of a crazy predator in the first few episodes. I do believe she seems to have been like this because she's in an otome game and did what she wanted to do. Although throughout the story, she does calm down on her actions and reflect on them realizing she might be stuck in this world for a bit.
@Ngliok It's not that you can't do comedy and serious themes, I just think it was absolutely butchered here, the scene feels fake and the whole message is a screaming contradiction given how close Rae comes to being the very stereotype Claire is criticized for believing. Reading into the LN it's more clear what the author was really after here, but I take a lot of issue with the fact that this sudden serious shift and discussion on intolerance feels way too out of left field and unbelievable, nothing discussed here has been adequately foreshadowed. The more I dissect this scene, the more I find to dislike about it, narratively speaking. I'm sure that I'm in the minority on this specific aspect, and I would be fine if this was a one off, but that's why I have reservations about what comes next. Thanks for the reply. |
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Oct 18, 2023 6:25 PM
#56
Yeah LostSpectre I totally agree with your position on this scene in episode 3. I'm really disappointed in some of the people bashing your opinions in this thread because they assume it's coming from a place of homophobia and prejudice, when it's just about writing/direction. I totally get why people in the LGBTQ+ community are excited for a series to directly address and talk seriously about issues members of the community face, especially in a series coming out of Japan which is known to be less progressive on topics such as homosexuality. But that makes it all the more frustrating when such a series does it in an inorganic manner. As you've said, the problem doesn't lie at all with the inherent themes. The problem is that for the first two and a half episodes, this office worker was reincarnated into the body of a high school girl and is proceeding to harass another girl at this school at her at every turn. This is supposed to be taken comedically, but when we get to the end of episode 3 it turns into a serious discussion about being gay, thus requiring viewers to take Rae's behavior from earlier scenes far more seriously. It seems clear that the in-canon explanation for Claire's behavior at the table is due an inherent bias she has against lesbians due to the world and her upbringing, but as a viewer I can't help but feel that her behavior in this scene seems to just as much be a result of feeling constantly harassed by Rae as being homophobic, if not more so. If we imagine for a moment that Claire isn't homophobic (which based on the world and her upbringing she certainly is), it would not be hard to believe that her reaction when hearing explicitly that Rae is gay is a reaction that is enforced by knowing that someone who has been harassing her has explicit sexual/romantic interest in her, and this isn't just a ruse or some way to deal with her bullying. It's really strange that in-universe Misha is defending Rae at all, since Rae acknowledges that there is little acknowledgement of homosexuality in this society, and is frowned upon more often than not. This makes sense since as many other series like this it seems to be based on some idea of an upper class society hundreds of years ago with magic in leu of technology. And it at least makes sense that they brought up the topic, seeing as Misha and the other maid were confused that Rae was trying to help Claire romantically with someone else. Yet Misha seems to just become the mouthpiece for the author talking about issues people like Rae face and goes way beyond a realistic capacity of what the viewer is taught to expect from her character up to this point, even if she is Rae Taylor's friend in the world of the game. There are two reasons that this feels like the author projecting onto the character(s) rather than writing a proper dialogue. One is that the point from earlier that Claire's behavior can be explained by something that isn't inherent homophobia. The second is that, at least in my opinion, the part of the conversation about there being some stereotype about homosexual people lusting after people of the same sex indiscriminately, rather than falling in love like heterosexual people, felt like it came completely out of nowhere. Rae behaves in a perverted manner, sure, but she's never shown remote interest in anyone other than Claire. Not even other women. I rewatched this scene over and over trying to understand how we got to that point because of how forced of a transition it is. And to top it all off there's the scene at the end with the tea spilling and Claire standing up for Rae. Which in a lot of other contexts I think could have been a good genuine scene of development on Claire's part. But it feels forced by the fact that Claire JUST got lectured about being a bigot and that it feels like those girls only show up to conveniently rub salt on Rae's wounds, so to speak. I have heard this isn't in the LN, and I think adapting it without that part would have improved the scene, and instead allowing it to happen later in a way that fits with the themes and tone of that part of the series. But alas. To end with a positive note, I did actually enjoy Rae's monologue in this episode. Her flashback to her school days and the rationalization behind her joking around all the time being related to dealing with being doomed to have unreciprocated love and losing people she cares about because she was open about her preferences. Out of everyone she seems to be the most true to herself in this scene. I can only hope scenes like this moving forward are more organic. This series absolutely can, and should, take these topics seriously. But when the same series makes a half-assed attempt at making the story tone and structure fit the messaging, you get cesspools like this forum. |
Oct 18, 2023 6:33 PM
#57
Reply to Snorachu
Hey, manga reader here. I really don't want to comment on wokeness or the politics of the LGBTQ+ community in Japan, but just within the story itself this conversation is important because it foreshadows two major future developments. The first is Rae's backstory (which likely won't be adapted unless the show gets a second season) and the second is why Claire was so quick to accept that there is nothing wrong with being lesbian (which will begin to be adapted this season, so without spoiling too much I will say that it seems like her initial views on love and sexuality are based on her noble upbringing, not her own feelings). If this sounds like something you want to watch, keep watching, but if this seems like something you don't want to watch, that's fine too.
I hope this answers your question!
I hope this answers your question!
@Snorachu Yes, I've heard as much about Claire, so there's at least some justification there for why she might be more amenable to that conversation, despite her unwavering attitude towards commoners, by comparison. I also don't doubt that there's narrative significance to this conversation, but I would say that's separate from whether or not this was executed well within the narrative. I very much disagree with the author dropping it like a bombshell on the reader, and find there's insufficient foreshadowing or context to the claims being made. I have literally no problem with the themes, despite how many people have accused me otherwise, I'm just hoping if there's more "lectures" that they will feel more organic or that it feels true to the characters, etc. Thanks for the reply. |
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Oct 18, 2023 6:38 PM
#58
Reply to ShizuFlame
Yeah LostSpectre I totally agree with your position on this scene in episode 3. I'm really disappointed in some of the people bashing your opinions in this thread because they assume it's coming from a place of homophobia and prejudice, when it's just about writing/direction. I totally get why people in the LGBTQ+ community are excited for a series to directly address and talk seriously about issues members of the community face, especially in a series coming out of Japan which is known to be less progressive on topics such as homosexuality. But that makes it all the more frustrating when such a series does it in an inorganic manner.
As you've said, the problem doesn't lie at all with the inherent themes. The problem is that for the first two and a half episodes, this office worker was reincarnated into the body of a high school girl and is proceeding to harass another girl at this school at her at every turn. This is supposed to be taken comedically, but when we get to the end of episode 3 it turns into a serious discussion about being gay, thus requiring viewers to take Rae's behavior from earlier scenes far more seriously. It seems clear that the in-canon explanation for Claire's behavior at the table is due an inherent bias she has against lesbians due to the world and her upbringing, but as a viewer I can't help but feel that her behavior in this scene seems to just as much be a result of feeling constantly harassed by Rae as being homophobic, if not more so. If we imagine for a moment that Claire isn't homophobic (which based on the world and her upbringing she certainly is), it would not be hard to believe that her reaction when hearing explicitly that Rae is gay is a reaction that is enforced by knowing that someone who has been harassing her has explicit sexual/romantic interest in her, and this isn't just a ruse or some way to deal with her bullying.
It's really strange that in-universe Misha is defending Rae at all, since Rae acknowledges that there is little acknowledgement of homosexuality in this society, and is frowned upon more often than not. This makes sense since as many other series like this it seems to be based on some idea of an upper class society hundreds of years ago with magic in leu of technology. And it at least makes sense that they brought up the topic, seeing as Misha and the other maid were confused that Rae was trying to help Claire romantically with someone else. Yet Misha seems to just become the mouthpiece for the author talking about issues people like Rae face and goes way beyond a realistic capacity of what the viewer is taught to expect from her character up to this point, even if she is Rae Taylor's friend in the world of the game.
There are two reasons that this feels like the author projecting onto the character(s) rather than writing a proper dialogue. One is that the point from earlier that Claire's behavior can be explained by something that isn't inherent homophobia. The second is that, at least in my opinion, the part of the conversation about there being some stereotype about homosexual people lusting after people of the same sex indiscriminately, rather than falling in love like heterosexual people, felt like it came completely out of nowhere. Rae behaves in a perverted manner, sure, but she's never shown remote interest in anyone other than Claire. Not even other women. I rewatched this scene over and over trying to understand how we got to that point because of how forced of a transition it is.
And to top it all off there's the scene at the end with the tea spilling and Claire standing up for Rae. Which in a lot of other contexts I think could have been a good genuine scene of development on Claire's part. But it feels forced by the fact that Claire JUST got lectured about being a bigot and that it feels like those girls only show up to conveniently rub salt on Rae's wounds, so to speak. I have heard this isn't in the LN, and I think adapting it without that part would have improved the scene, and instead allowing it to happen later in a way that fits with the themes and tone of that part of the series. But alas.
To end with a positive note, I did actually enjoy Rae's monologue in this episode. Her flashback to her school days and the rationalization behind her joking around all the time being related to dealing with being doomed to have unreciprocated love and losing people she cares about because she was open about her preferences. Out of everyone she seems to be the most true to herself in this scene.
I can only hope scenes like this moving forward are more organic. This series absolutely can, and should, take these topics seriously. But when the same series makes a half-assed attempt at making the story tone and structure fit the messaging, you get cesspools like this forum.
As you've said, the problem doesn't lie at all with the inherent themes. The problem is that for the first two and a half episodes, this office worker was reincarnated into the body of a high school girl and is proceeding to harass another girl at this school at her at every turn. This is supposed to be taken comedically, but when we get to the end of episode 3 it turns into a serious discussion about being gay, thus requiring viewers to take Rae's behavior from earlier scenes far more seriously. It seems clear that the in-canon explanation for Claire's behavior at the table is due an inherent bias she has against lesbians due to the world and her upbringing, but as a viewer I can't help but feel that her behavior in this scene seems to just as much be a result of feeling constantly harassed by Rae as being homophobic, if not more so. If we imagine for a moment that Claire isn't homophobic (which based on the world and her upbringing she certainly is), it would not be hard to believe that her reaction when hearing explicitly that Rae is gay is a reaction that is enforced by knowing that someone who has been harassing her has explicit sexual/romantic interest in her, and this isn't just a ruse or some way to deal with her bullying.
It's really strange that in-universe Misha is defending Rae at all, since Rae acknowledges that there is little acknowledgement of homosexuality in this society, and is frowned upon more often than not. This makes sense since as many other series like this it seems to be based on some idea of an upper class society hundreds of years ago with magic in leu of technology. And it at least makes sense that they brought up the topic, seeing as Misha and the other maid were confused that Rae was trying to help Claire romantically with someone else. Yet Misha seems to just become the mouthpiece for the author talking about issues people like Rae face and goes way beyond a realistic capacity of what the viewer is taught to expect from her character up to this point, even if she is Rae Taylor's friend in the world of the game.
There are two reasons that this feels like the author projecting onto the character(s) rather than writing a proper dialogue. One is that the point from earlier that Claire's behavior can be explained by something that isn't inherent homophobia. The second is that, at least in my opinion, the part of the conversation about there being some stereotype about homosexual people lusting after people of the same sex indiscriminately, rather than falling in love like heterosexual people, felt like it came completely out of nowhere. Rae behaves in a perverted manner, sure, but she's never shown remote interest in anyone other than Claire. Not even other women. I rewatched this scene over and over trying to understand how we got to that point because of how forced of a transition it is.
And to top it all off there's the scene at the end with the tea spilling and Claire standing up for Rae. Which in a lot of other contexts I think could have been a good genuine scene of development on Claire's part. But it feels forced by the fact that Claire JUST got lectured about being a bigot and that it feels like those girls only show up to conveniently rub salt on Rae's wounds, so to speak. I have heard this isn't in the LN, and I think adapting it without that part would have improved the scene, and instead allowing it to happen later in a way that fits with the themes and tone of that part of the series. But alas.
To end with a positive note, I did actually enjoy Rae's monologue in this episode. Her flashback to her school days and the rationalization behind her joking around all the time being related to dealing with being doomed to have unreciprocated love and losing people she cares about because she was open about her preferences. Out of everyone she seems to be the most true to herself in this scene.
I can only hope scenes like this moving forward are more organic. This series absolutely can, and should, take these topics seriously. But when the same series makes a half-assed attempt at making the story tone and structure fit the messaging, you get cesspools like this forum.
@ShizuFlame the author has been pretty open about her inspirations, especially that she based Rae on her wife; so it’s less projecting and more writing. Sometimes you have to be loud, clear and ‘cringe’ about something, so that it’s 100% understood that we aren’t here just to have two girls fool around, but we’re here to talk about actual queer feelings from an actually queer woman. This is all paid off in the rest of the thing (including stuff like why Claire was so quick to turn on the two assholes), so worry ye not — sure, you may not like the scene, but, in that case, it’s important to know that the entire rest of the story is just this scene expanded on and explained. You don’t like it, you won’t like what’s coming. (This includes things like why Misha was asking at all suddenly so defensive both Misha and Lene were correct about Claire, especially if you observe her overreaction — she did to those two kids something that she said she wouldn’t do to Rae by bullying them with the hot tea sudden classroom memory flashback |
Oct 18, 2023 6:47 PM
#59
Reply to LostSpectre
@EleventhMS I've read up to here in the LN, my point of view remains exactly the same, the logic is forced and unrealistic. Not to mention that it's just way too fucking awkward how on the nose it is when it comes to what Misha is lecturing Claire on, and you think it's a good thing that Rae is also a hypocrite in this regard, that just makes the whole damn thing messier if you ask me. I found this whole lecture to be so incredibly inorganic and fake, it doesn't remotely feel real for any other character besides Rae.
Cool, you've read the LN. I've read it as well and see nothing wrong with it and see that it fits with all characters involved. Was it abrupt? Yes. That's how the scene is shown as well with how Claire and Lene react to the suddenness of Misha's question. It was intentional. Misha is a pretty straightforward girl, so when she sees someone like Claire react that way again not because of Rae's antic before which would be valid, but on the mere mention that Rae was gay instead. Misha is Rae's best friend so she will call out Rae on her antics on Claire as she should, but she also will call out Claire on something Rae has no control over which is her sexual orientation. And yes, I do think Rae falling into the stereotypes that doesn't help her case is good, because the series straight up brings it up. Rae herself mentions that that's something she should stop perpetuating, but so far is using that as a coping mechanism. It'd be something if they don't talk about it at all, but there they are directly addressing it. The conversation does several things for all the characters involved. It helps Lene and Misha understand Rae more as a person. It helps in Claire looking further than her current worldview as she begins to look beyond it, and see a side she was initially ignorant about. It also helps in understanding why Rae does the stuff she does and that there is room for development for her to eventually break out of the stereotype she's been using to cope. None of it was unreal for me, because while it was a Queer 101 of the series, it still had a purpose to further the story and character development of everyone involved there. |
EleventhMSOct 18, 2023 6:56 PM
Oct 18, 2023 6:54 PM
#60
Reply to ShizuFlame
Yeah LostSpectre I totally agree with your position on this scene in episode 3. I'm really disappointed in some of the people bashing your opinions in this thread because they assume it's coming from a place of homophobia and prejudice, when it's just about writing/direction. I totally get why people in the LGBTQ+ community are excited for a series to directly address and talk seriously about issues members of the community face, especially in a series coming out of Japan which is known to be less progressive on topics such as homosexuality. But that makes it all the more frustrating when such a series does it in an inorganic manner.
As you've said, the problem doesn't lie at all with the inherent themes. The problem is that for the first two and a half episodes, this office worker was reincarnated into the body of a high school girl and is proceeding to harass another girl at this school at her at every turn. This is supposed to be taken comedically, but when we get to the end of episode 3 it turns into a serious discussion about being gay, thus requiring viewers to take Rae's behavior from earlier scenes far more seriously. It seems clear that the in-canon explanation for Claire's behavior at the table is due an inherent bias she has against lesbians due to the world and her upbringing, but as a viewer I can't help but feel that her behavior in this scene seems to just as much be a result of feeling constantly harassed by Rae as being homophobic, if not more so. If we imagine for a moment that Claire isn't homophobic (which based on the world and her upbringing she certainly is), it would not be hard to believe that her reaction when hearing explicitly that Rae is gay is a reaction that is enforced by knowing that someone who has been harassing her has explicit sexual/romantic interest in her, and this isn't just a ruse or some way to deal with her bullying.
It's really strange that in-universe Misha is defending Rae at all, since Rae acknowledges that there is little acknowledgement of homosexuality in this society, and is frowned upon more often than not. This makes sense since as many other series like this it seems to be based on some idea of an upper class society hundreds of years ago with magic in leu of technology. And it at least makes sense that they brought up the topic, seeing as Misha and the other maid were confused that Rae was trying to help Claire romantically with someone else. Yet Misha seems to just become the mouthpiece for the author talking about issues people like Rae face and goes way beyond a realistic capacity of what the viewer is taught to expect from her character up to this point, even if she is Rae Taylor's friend in the world of the game.
There are two reasons that this feels like the author projecting onto the character(s) rather than writing a proper dialogue. One is that the point from earlier that Claire's behavior can be explained by something that isn't inherent homophobia. The second is that, at least in my opinion, the part of the conversation about there being some stereotype about homosexual people lusting after people of the same sex indiscriminately, rather than falling in love like heterosexual people, felt like it came completely out of nowhere. Rae behaves in a perverted manner, sure, but she's never shown remote interest in anyone other than Claire. Not even other women. I rewatched this scene over and over trying to understand how we got to that point because of how forced of a transition it is.
And to top it all off there's the scene at the end with the tea spilling and Claire standing up for Rae. Which in a lot of other contexts I think could have been a good genuine scene of development on Claire's part. But it feels forced by the fact that Claire JUST got lectured about being a bigot and that it feels like those girls only show up to conveniently rub salt on Rae's wounds, so to speak. I have heard this isn't in the LN, and I think adapting it without that part would have improved the scene, and instead allowing it to happen later in a way that fits with the themes and tone of that part of the series. But alas.
To end with a positive note, I did actually enjoy Rae's monologue in this episode. Her flashback to her school days and the rationalization behind her joking around all the time being related to dealing with being doomed to have unreciprocated love and losing people she cares about because she was open about her preferences. Out of everyone she seems to be the most true to herself in this scene.
I can only hope scenes like this moving forward are more organic. This series absolutely can, and should, take these topics seriously. But when the same series makes a half-assed attempt at making the story tone and structure fit the messaging, you get cesspools like this forum.
As you've said, the problem doesn't lie at all with the inherent themes. The problem is that for the first two and a half episodes, this office worker was reincarnated into the body of a high school girl and is proceeding to harass another girl at this school at her at every turn. This is supposed to be taken comedically, but when we get to the end of episode 3 it turns into a serious discussion about being gay, thus requiring viewers to take Rae's behavior from earlier scenes far more seriously. It seems clear that the in-canon explanation for Claire's behavior at the table is due an inherent bias she has against lesbians due to the world and her upbringing, but as a viewer I can't help but feel that her behavior in this scene seems to just as much be a result of feeling constantly harassed by Rae as being homophobic, if not more so. If we imagine for a moment that Claire isn't homophobic (which based on the world and her upbringing she certainly is), it would not be hard to believe that her reaction when hearing explicitly that Rae is gay is a reaction that is enforced by knowing that someone who has been harassing her has explicit sexual/romantic interest in her, and this isn't just a ruse or some way to deal with her bullying.
It's really strange that in-universe Misha is defending Rae at all, since Rae acknowledges that there is little acknowledgement of homosexuality in this society, and is frowned upon more often than not. This makes sense since as many other series like this it seems to be based on some idea of an upper class society hundreds of years ago with magic in leu of technology. And it at least makes sense that they brought up the topic, seeing as Misha and the other maid were confused that Rae was trying to help Claire romantically with someone else. Yet Misha seems to just become the mouthpiece for the author talking about issues people like Rae face and goes way beyond a realistic capacity of what the viewer is taught to expect from her character up to this point, even if she is Rae Taylor's friend in the world of the game.
There are two reasons that this feels like the author projecting onto the character(s) rather than writing a proper dialogue. One is that the point from earlier that Claire's behavior can be explained by something that isn't inherent homophobia. The second is that, at least in my opinion, the part of the conversation about there being some stereotype about homosexual people lusting after people of the same sex indiscriminately, rather than falling in love like heterosexual people, felt like it came completely out of nowhere. Rae behaves in a perverted manner, sure, but she's never shown remote interest in anyone other than Claire. Not even other women. I rewatched this scene over and over trying to understand how we got to that point because of how forced of a transition it is.
And to top it all off there's the scene at the end with the tea spilling and Claire standing up for Rae. Which in a lot of other contexts I think could have been a good genuine scene of development on Claire's part. But it feels forced by the fact that Claire JUST got lectured about being a bigot and that it feels like those girls only show up to conveniently rub salt on Rae's wounds, so to speak. I have heard this isn't in the LN, and I think adapting it without that part would have improved the scene, and instead allowing it to happen later in a way that fits with the themes and tone of that part of the series. But alas.
To end with a positive note, I did actually enjoy Rae's monologue in this episode. Her flashback to her school days and the rationalization behind her joking around all the time being related to dealing with being doomed to have unreciprocated love and losing people she cares about because she was open about her preferences. Out of everyone she seems to be the most true to herself in this scene.
I can only hope scenes like this moving forward are more organic. This series absolutely can, and should, take these topics seriously. But when the same series makes a half-assed attempt at making the story tone and structure fit the messaging, you get cesspools like this forum.
@ShizuFlame Oh, I'm not used to people actually agreeing with me or actually understanding where I'm coming from, there seems to be a natural inclination to push back against any sort of criticism of socially conscious messaging, such as the very pro-LGBT sentiments in the LN. Of course, I can understand why that would be the case when people with real prejudice would also dislike such a scene, but most importantly, for significantly different reasons. I might be off the mark calling this "woke" because my intention is certainly not to criticize pro-LGBT themes, but the clumsy or hypocritical execution of said themes, the author seems more concerned with using her work as a platform to discuss these important issues, but as a watcher/reader I'm just feeling the whiplash of the purposeful abrupt shift in tone and complete switch over from this wacky bullied girl bullies girl with... love, type scenario into suddenly getting very real about LGBT discrimination. The part you're confused about is illuminated in the LN where the author talks about how gay people in plays or stories are either treated as a predatory stereotype or sexually "free" and there's a lot more depth comparing the discrimination in that world and comparing that to homophobia in Japan, but I never get the sense that until this moment we're seeing this play out during the story, no one up until that point shows any sort of outright homophobic sentiment towards Rae and her outlandishly gay behavior. However, I do agree with you that Rae's backstory is easily the best part here, and she does feel like the only authentic character in this interaction. Yeah, all preestablished logic just kind of goes out the window here in order for the author to set this specific stage, and it is what it is, I guess. |
LostSpectreOct 18, 2023 6:58 PM
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Oct 18, 2023 6:59 PM
#61
Reply to removed-user
@ShizuFlame the author has been pretty open about her inspirations, especially that she based Rae on her wife; so it’s less projecting and more writing.
Sometimes you have to be loud, clear and ‘cringe’ about something, so that it’s 100% understood that we aren’t here just to have two girls fool around, but we’re here to talk about actual queer feelings from an actually queer woman.
This is all paid off in the rest of the thing (including stuff like why Claire was so quick to turn on the two assholes), so worry ye not — sure, you may not like the scene, but, in that case, it’s important to know that the entire rest of the story is just this scene expanded on and explained. You don’t like it, you won’t like what’s coming.
(This includes things like why Misha
was asking at all, why Lene was
suddenly so defensive, why
both Misha and Lene were correct about Claire, especially if you observe her overreaction — she did to those two kids something that she said she wouldn’t do to Rae by bullying them with the hot tea, who the people in Rae’s
sudden classroom memory flashback actually are, and a bunch more.)
Sometimes you have to be loud, clear and ‘cringe’ about something, so that it’s 100% understood that we aren’t here just to have two girls fool around, but we’re here to talk about actual queer feelings from an actually queer woman.
This is all paid off in the rest of the thing (including stuff like why Claire was so quick to turn on the two assholes), so worry ye not — sure, you may not like the scene, but, in that case, it’s important to know that the entire rest of the story is just this scene expanded on and explained. You don’t like it, you won’t like what’s coming.
(This includes things like why Misha
was asking at all
suddenly so defensive
both Misha and Lene were correct about Claire, especially if you observe her overreaction — she did to those two kids something that she said she wouldn’t do to Rae by bullying them with the hot tea
sudden classroom memory flashback
@millenomi Kinda hard to say what my stance will be on the show moving forward, because frankly exactly what this scene needs is a lot of expansion and explanation. My beef with it, and I think the same for others, is that it doesn't feel built up to and that some these explanations you've hinted at are things that should have been at least somewhat established BEFORE this scene, not after. The author is basing her writing partially off of real life experience, but that doesn't guarantee that the entire flow of events that comes out of it is natural. Do keep in mind that Rae was the one person I didn't have a problem with in this particular scene. I have problems with her behavior up to this point on a meta level for what the author wants to achieve, but in the scene in question she is very much in character and is given meaningful backstory. Misha to me is the character that I find most perplexing. I understand part of why she initiates the conversation. They give us a surface level reason which is good enough for now. But everything beyond that doesn't feel like something natural for a character in this world and their expected behavior based on what the viewer knows. Whether I like Wataoshi moving forward or not will have a lot more to do with how that expansion is handled. But I appreciate the tidbits about the author, I didn't know any of that. :D |
Oct 18, 2023 7:04 PM
#62
Reply to LostSpectre
@ShizuFlame Oh, I'm not used to people actually agreeing with me or actually understanding where I'm coming from, there seems to be a natural inclination to push back against any sort of criticism of socially conscious messaging, such as the very pro-LGBT sentiments in the LN. Of course, I can understand why that would be the case when people with real prejudice would also dislike such a scene, but most importantly, for significantly different reasons.
I might be off the mark calling this "woke" because my intention is certainly not to criticize pro-LGBT themes, but the clumsy or hypocritical execution of said themes, the author seems more concerned with using her work as a platform to discuss these important issues, but as a watcher/reader I'm just feeling the whiplash of the purposeful abrupt shift in tone and complete switch over from this wacky bullied girl bullies girl with... love, type scenario into suddenly getting very real about LGBT discrimination.
The part you're confused about is illuminated in the LN where the author talks about how gay people in plays or stories are either treated as a predatory stereotype or sexually "free" and there's a lot more depth comparing the discrimination in that world and comparing that to homophobia in Japan, but I never get the sense that until this moment we're seeing this play out during the story, no one up until that point shows any sort of outright homophobic sentiment towards Rae and her outlandishly gay behavior.
However, I do agree with you that Rae's backstory is easily the best part here, and she does feel like the only authentic character in this interaction.
Yeah, all preestablished logic just kind of goes out the window here in order for the author to set this specific stage, and it is what it is, I guess.
I might be off the mark calling this "woke" because my intention is certainly not to criticize pro-LGBT themes, but the clumsy or hypocritical execution of said themes, the author seems more concerned with using her work as a platform to discuss these important issues, but as a watcher/reader I'm just feeling the whiplash of the purposeful abrupt shift in tone and complete switch over from this wacky bullied girl bullies girl with... love, type scenario into suddenly getting very real about LGBT discrimination.
The part you're confused about is illuminated in the LN where the author talks about how gay people in plays or stories are either treated as a predatory stereotype or sexually "free" and there's a lot more depth comparing the discrimination in that world and comparing that to homophobia in Japan, but I never get the sense that until this moment we're seeing this play out during the story, no one up until that point shows any sort of outright homophobic sentiment towards Rae and her outlandishly gay behavior.
However, I do agree with you that Rae's backstory is easily the best part here, and she does feel like the only authentic character in this interaction.
Yeah, all preestablished logic just kind of goes out the window here in order for the author to set this specific stage, and it is what it is, I guess.
@LostSpectre Yeah "woke" is not the right term to use here. It will almost always come off as anti-LGBTQ+, even if that isn't the intention. It's such a buzzword that it's best to just keep it out of one's vocabulary outside of some ironic jokes, IMO. And that part about gay people in stories is actually really interesting. This explains why the scene focused on the other maid (Lene?) trying to say Rae loving Claire is about her not caring about gender, but then Rae corrects her to say that she does care and it is relevant. That's another unfortunate ommision from the anime. Though I don't really know if it improves the scene at the end of the day, it's something probably worth referencing sooner or later. |
ShizuFlameOct 18, 2023 7:08 PM
Oct 18, 2023 7:07 PM
#63
Reply to EleventhMS
Cool, you've read the LN. I've read it as well and see nothing wrong with it and see that it fits with all characters involved. Was it abrupt? Yes. That's how the scene is shown as well with how Claire and Lene react to the suddenness of Misha's question. It was intentional. Misha is a pretty straightforward girl, so when she sees someone like Claire react that way again not because of Rae's antic before which would be valid, but on the mere mention that Rae was gay instead. Misha is Rae's best friend so she will call out Rae on her antics on Claire as she should, but she also will call out Claire on something Rae has no control over which is her sexual orientation.
And yes, I do think Rae falling into the stereotypes that doesn't help her case is good, because the series straight up brings it up. Rae herself mentions that that's something she should stop perpetuating, but so far is using that as a coping mechanism. It'd be something if they don't talk about it at all, but there they are directly addressing it.
The conversation does several things for all the characters involved. It helps Lene and Misha understand Rae more as a person. It helps in Claire looking further than her current worldview as she begins to look beyond it, and see a side she was initially ignorant about. It also helps in understanding why Rae does the stuff she does and that there is room for development for her to eventually break out of the stereotype she's been using to cope.
None of it was unreal for me, because while it was a Queer 101 of the series, it still had a purpose to further the story and character development of everyone involved there.
And yes, I do think Rae falling into the stereotypes that doesn't help her case is good, because the series straight up brings it up. Rae herself mentions that that's something she should stop perpetuating, but so far is using that as a coping mechanism. It'd be something if they don't talk about it at all, but there they are directly addressing it.
The conversation does several things for all the characters involved. It helps Lene and Misha understand Rae more as a person. It helps in Claire looking further than her current worldview as she begins to look beyond it, and see a side she was initially ignorant about. It also helps in understanding why Rae does the stuff she does and that there is room for development for her to eventually break out of the stereotype she's been using to cope.
None of it was unreal for me, because while it was a Queer 101 of the series, it still had a purpose to further the story and character development of everyone involved there.
@EleventhMS Fair enough. I don't think we're going to find any common ground here, I've already said all I have to say about it. |
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Oct 18, 2023 7:14 PM
#64
Reply to ShizuFlame
@LostSpectre Yeah "woke" is not the right term to use here. It will almost always come off as anti-LGBTQ+, even if that isn't the intention. It's such a buzzword that it's best to just keep it out of one's vocabulary outside of some ironic jokes, IMO.
And that part about gay people in stories is actually really interesting. This explains why the scene focused on the other maid (Lene?) trying to say Rae loving Claire is about her not caring about gender, but then Rae corrects her to say that she does care and it is relevant. That's another unfortunate ommision from the anime. Though I don't really know if it improves the scene at the end of the day, it's something probably worth referencing sooner or later.
And that part about gay people in stories is actually really interesting. This explains why the scene focused on the other maid (Lene?) trying to say Rae loving Claire is about her not caring about gender, but then Rae corrects her to say that she does care and it is relevant. That's another unfortunate ommision from the anime. Though I don't really know if it improves the scene at the end of the day, it's something probably worth referencing sooner or later.
@ShizuFlame That's completely fair, there's probably no good way to use it without aligning oneself with people who think any representation is "woke". Yeah, there's more exposition/details in the LN for sure, and Rae is definitely a bit more toned down, at least, no written description of a nose bleed in the women's bath, for instance. I still found that even with all the extra context there is an appalling lack of foreshadowing or any context building up to that, but it's at least crystal clear what the author wants to get across. I also thought Claire's "I sense that I'm in danger" was a joke in the anime, because, knowing Rae is attracted to her (and not just toying with her) and given her past behavior, it seems like a reasonable conclusion, but alas. In the LN there's no ambiguity, she inches further from Rae and Rae inches closer, Claire pulls away, then she asks "why are you pulling away from me?" it's a completely different tone. I didn't get to experience the LN first, but contextually, it didn't give me the same sort of whiplash as the anime. |
If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Oct 19, 2023 2:30 PM
#65
Well, if you really want spoilers, here are the other things that are either discussed in the novel or led to controversy similar to this one. This spoiler only covers the first two volumes. Discussion: -Rae overhears two nuns being homophobic. She then has a discussion with them about homophobia, including the reasons for homophobia and homophobia in religion. The discussion ends on reasonably friendly or at least non-antagonistic terms. - A character is revealed to have been cursed as a baby to always appear as the opposite sex. Said character, who has been raised and treated as the opposite sex due to the curse, wants to break the curse and live as their original sex. This is a huge trans allegory. The characters dialouge is very much word for word how trans people irl speak about their struggles. Ray is very passionate about this because a trans friend of hers comitted suicide in her old life. Controversies: - A sympathetic character is revealed to be in an incestuous relationship. This is portrayed neutrally, though they do get to flee the country and live openly as a couple under new identities together. Claire and Rae are still sympathetic to at least one of them due to their history. Now people say that the author likens homosexual relationships to incestuous relationships but i personally disagree. At least in the novel. In both the novel and manga that character asks Rae '"Are you like me?". In the manga, Rae says nothing, which ill admit looks pretty bad. In the novel though she clearly says "No." Still, this is one of the big drama-points. - Thd following is the arc the anime will presumably end on anc thats terrible. Because it is by far the most divisive. A childhood friend of Claires shows up who was also her first love. It is the princess of a neighbouring kingdom. Claire thought she was a boy when they met and fell for her. There are clearly some weak' very weak but present residual feelings left in Claire. The princess turns out to be a lesbian herself. She pressured a maid into sleeping with her who then quit. She then visited brothels until she eventually was caught and then send to barelg disguised political exile jn Bauer. She admonishes Rae for having given up and then threatens to seduce Claire and do to her what she did to the maid if Rae doesnt start fighting for Claire. They then have a love contest over Claire where the princess will also get Rae in addition to Claire if she wins. Rae wins due to game knowledge and the princess reveals shd was never interested in Claire but rather wanted Rae. She then has to return to her kingdom due to an emergency and Claire is left a bit more open to the ideaof being with a woman while Rae has resolved to start actively pursuing Claird romantically. Lots of shitstorms overvthat one. Many decided to drop the manga there. I enjoy it for what it is and right after this arc is where things get really interesting, but having this arc as the anime drop-off point is the worst decision they couldve made. |
Oct 19, 2023 7:16 PM
#66
I hope an actual relationship develops if not between Clare and rae than someone else. It seems cruel to them both to keep it up as it is. It’s cruel to rae to just have her be a punching bag who gets repeatedly rejected and unable to find love and it’s cruel to Claire to basically have her be subjected to endless harassment |
Oct 20, 2023 12:36 AM
#67
If that's what you're worried about - then yes. Personally I think it makes it better, but if you're worried about it having serious elements later on, then just drop it now. |
Oct 20, 2023 4:19 AM
#68
This LN does get worse after a while. I don't know when it'll get worse but it does and so, it's not worth one's time. |
Oct 20, 2023 5:59 AM
#69
Reply to removed-user
This LN does get worse after a while. I don't know when it'll get worse but it does and so, it's not worth one's time.
@Aoi_hana Id completely disagree. My spoiler post above mentions the most controversial parts of the series but on the whole it gets better and more interesting every volume. Id recommend anyone to at least finish Volume 2, which has a great self-contained ending and plenty of character development and satisfying payoffs. The new story-arc spanning the last three volumes is much less romance, and more adventure and politics focused (Though of course there is still romance, just not as much and its not focused on ) and really explores that world and the leftover hooks from Part 1 to its fullest. Id also recommend the official version as it reads just a million times better than the free fan-translation. If you hated Rae being a creepy weirdo but liked everything else youd like the latter half of Part 1 and all of Part 2. If you only enjoy the yuri aspect youll be happy with Part 1. If you liked nothinb so far you wont be convinced even by Part 2. You just have to get part the few weird spots in Part 1. If anyone is worried, i kept my spoiler post as vague as possible, so even though id recommend going in blind, if its between you dropping the series or knowing its pitfalls in advance, check it out and see if youd be okay with it or if it'd be too much for you. |
Oct 20, 2023 6:06 AM
#70
Reply to HadToDoIt
@Aoi_hana Id completely disagree. My spoiler post above mentions the most controversial parts of the series but on the whole it gets better and more interesting every volume. Id recommend anyone to at least finish Volume 2, which has a great self-contained ending and plenty of character development and satisfying payoffs. The new story-arc spanning the last three volumes is much less romance, and more adventure and politics focused (Though of course there is still romance, just not as much and its not focused on ) and really explores that world and the leftover hooks from Part 1 to its fullest.
Id also recommend the official version as it reads just a million times better than the free fan-translation.
If you hated Rae being a creepy weirdo but liked everything else youd like the latter half of Part 1 and all of Part 2. If you only enjoy the yuri aspect youll be happy with Part 1. If you liked nothinb so far you wont be convinced even by Part 2.
You just have to get part the few weird spots in Part 1. If anyone is worried, i kept my spoiler post as vague as possible, so even though id recommend going in blind, if its between you dropping the series or knowing its pitfalls in advance, check it out and see if youd be okay with it or if it'd be too much for you.
Id also recommend the official version as it reads just a million times better than the free fan-translation.
If you hated Rae being a creepy weirdo but liked everything else youd like the latter half of Part 1 and all of Part 2. If you only enjoy the yuri aspect youll be happy with Part 1. If you liked nothinb so far you wont be convinced even by Part 2.
You just have to get part the few weird spots in Part 1. If anyone is worried, i kept my spoiler post as vague as possible, so even though id recommend going in blind, if its between you dropping the series or knowing its pitfalls in advance, check it out and see if youd be okay with it or if it'd be too much for you.
@HadToDoIt Since this LN/anime will have incest later on, it's trash. No need to complicate things, it's that simple. |
Oct 20, 2023 6:23 AM
#71
Reply to removed-user
@HadToDoIt Since this LN/anime will have incest later on, it's trash. No need to complicate things, it's that simple.
@Aoi_hana 5 Eh. Incest is a neutral topic like any other (By which i mean nothing should bd taboo to include in a story. It all heavily depends on how you handle it, rather than it just being included.). WataOshi doesnt condemn it but it also doesnt encourage it. Youre acting like WataOshi is a glowing recommandation of Incest like Imoto Paradise, but it really isnt. Do you also think the early seasons of Game of Thrones are trash? Lelouch said his half-sister Euphy was his first love bug that doesnt mean Code Geass is trash. Seems a bit silly to trash something for having incest, which is never depicted, or dwelled on and where the characters involved in that relationship exit the story immediately after. But you do you. |
HadToDoItOct 20, 2023 6:27 AM
Oct 20, 2023 6:39 AM
#72
Reply to HadToDoIt
@Aoi_hana 5 Eh. Incest is a neutral topic like any other (By which i mean nothing should bd taboo to include in a story. It all heavily depends on how you handle it, rather than it just being included.). WataOshi doesnt condemn it but it also doesnt encourage it. Youre acting like WataOshi is a glowing recommandation of Incest like Imoto Paradise, but it really isnt.
Do you also think the early seasons of Game of Thrones are trash? Lelouch said his half-sister Euphy was his first love bug that doesnt mean Code Geass is trash. Seems a bit silly to trash something for having incest, which is never depicted, or dwelled on and where the characters involved in that relationship exit the story immediately after. But you do you.
Do you also think the early seasons of Game of Thrones are trash? Lelouch said his half-sister Euphy was his first love bug that doesnt mean Code Geass is trash. Seems a bit silly to trash something for having incest, which is never depicted, or dwelled on and where the characters involved in that relationship exit the story immediately after. But you do you.
@HadToDoIt It's not neutral at all. If a story has elements of incest, I don't want to read it. Therefore, I felt the need to warn others about it, just in case they are caught unaware of it and go through with it. And yes, Game of Thrones in general is trash and for that reason I've not seen it nor plan to. If you're only here to argue with me because I said this series is trash, don't bother, I'm done replying. |
Oct 20, 2023 6:54 AM
#73
Reply to removed-user
@HadToDoIt It's not neutral at all. If a story has elements of incest, I don't want to read it. Therefore, I felt the need to warn others about it, just in case they are caught unaware of it and go through with it. And yes, Game of Thrones in general is trash and for that reason I've not seen it nor plan to. If you're only here to argue with me because I said this series is trash, don't bother, I'm done replying.
@Aoi_hana I only wanted to repy to you specifically in my first ever post on here. Now im just reading through forums of series im actively watching/reading and commenting on posts that i feel i have somethinv to reply to, like everyone else. I just wanted to make clear that this is a good series tbat gets better as it goes on but has a few weak parts, mostlynin the first 2 volumes, and i found your hyperfixation on a simple topic just being included a bit silly. As is calling something trash despite never having seen or read it. It is what it is though. We all have our own sensibilities. Also, if was only on Mal to argue with you i would have only 3 posts, lol. If you stay around here i may reply to you when i feel i have something to add, but i'm not gonna follow you around just to spite you. Ain't nobody got time for that. |
Oct 21, 2023 5:06 AM
#74
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