Kanojo mo Kanojo Season 2 Episode 2 Discussion

Somehow that episode put everything together. I almost want to say it's the best of them all so far, including season 1. For it's here that we see everyone's insanity come to the fore: They all like Naoya because he insists on his absurd honor to the very end—and because they're also the kind of people to insist on their own ideas of what's right no matter what ridiculous place that leads. The clash of values, and the reductio ad absurdum, are both strange for a harem anime. Somehow the humor works really well. It's clear after this episode that Girlfriend, Girlfriend (I'm a CR person so I tend to use their titles and stylization) has defeated Rent-a-Girlfriend, which is funny and good in its own way but never overcame its own cringe—because it refuses to admit Chizuru is a terrible person.

@auroraloose By clash of values, do you mean the values of the different girls or within Shino? In terms of the latter, would that mean that a love triangle is contrary to Shino's values, but she still has a crush on Naoya and might even want to be in a relationship with him herself? The resistance to the love triangle would stem from a value, but the crush on Naoya would be an emotional state. So then I would call it more of a cognitive dissonance than a clash of values.
If you mean the clash of values within a character, then I agree and it is rather unusual. I'm no expert, but I think between the girls of a harem, it's more common. For example, while in To Love Ru Momo pursues the plan of a harem for the MC, it contradicts the values of Nana and Yui, who are also part of the supposed harem. Or in this season's newest harem anime, The 100 Girlfriends Who Really Love You, the first two girls introduced, Karane and Shizuka, differ in their values.
By reductio ad absurdum, you probably mean Shino's statement that she will break up the love triangle, which is contrary to her feelings towards Naoya. But can logic be derived from feelings, which is what is needed for a contradiction in reductio ad absurdum and isn't it simply an antinomy of emotional authenticity?

All in all, I agree that it's the best episode of the series so far.

@Ophiul Thanks for replying—and that's a pretty good question. By values I do mean the general definition, those principles and objects one believes to be important and attempts to follow or obtain. It's difficult to characterize what exactly Naoya and his harem all value, because you could probably argue it multiple ways, but I'll see what I can do:

It's easy to say thar Naoya operates with a kind of basic honor and honesty; but from these he basically believes he can exceed common sense and reason in possessing what he wants. That which he believes is good he wants to obtain, and he will fight the whole universe, including himself, for it. So he'll insist he date multiple girls, not only to respect his own desires but to respect theirs as well. This doesn't make any sense, because he's also violating their respect by not committing himself solely to one of them, but he values the good of having both of them more than having just one, because he wants the both of them to have what they want as well. Thus he also accepts that he's scum—and it's not that he doesn't care that he's a terrible person for dating multiple girls simultaneously; rather he values the good of having them all even more than his own reputation. So of course he'd call the police on himself; he believes in something greater than himself, his own honor and good, that he must submit to. This makes him a lot like Nietzsche's ubermensch, choosing his own new values independent of morality and sticking to them despite how they harm him.

It's because Naoya is able to like multiple things to such extremes that his own values come into conflict with themselves; hence the two-timing. Hence also choosing to be awkward and stupid confessing to Saki constantly even though that probably turns her off; he values the truth too much to play games to get her, even though this thwarts getting her. Really Shino is right to be impressed by this; Naoya will value a thing so much he will express that value to the utmost whether or not it benefits him. Naoya's triumph is that he believes in the end that it will benefit him—and more, that it is precisely acting this way that will bring that about. It's kind of like Kierkegaard's knight of faith, who believes that in giving up what he desires most the universe will literally break and he'll get what he gave up anyway.

Naoya, being the ubermensch, teaches his harem how to value things fiercely despite the contradictions involved, but the girls themselves are already stubborn and idiosyncratic in what they desire. So Nagisa basically won the first season; she's the one who was willing to give up sole possession of Naoya so as to possess him at all. Rika is the most vulgar of them, as what she gives up is basic decency in order to possess what she wants, both with Naoya and her channel. She mostly just clashes with everyone else, but even she succumbed to herself in episode 1 of season 2, where Naoya convinces her she's gone too far trying to get him through his attraction to her sister. This was pretty funny, because she had to submit to the logic of a two-timing jerk saying even he wasn't that low. Rika is also an example of how Naoya blithely contradicts and redefines his own values in service of what he desires most: He won't date Rika because he wants to respect the other two girls he's dating, even though he's already not respecting them by dating more than one person. Naoya kicks logic to the curb to make the impossible possible. That's all I meant by reductio ad absurdum; the show takes its characters' desires to their absurd conclusions, and doesn't moderate them so as not to end up absurd.

Really what I meant by the different characters' values conflicting was that they all want something that requires the rest of them not to get what they want. So Saki wants Naoya and also wants to maintain the two-timing, while Shino wants Naoya, wants Saki to get what she wants, but also wants to stop the two-timing. In that sense I wasn't making any statement about their moral values conflicting, though it's clear they do: Rika doesn't seem to care about sharing Naoya, while Naoya cares about who he shares himself with, and Shino doesn't believe he should be shared among multiple people. But it's easier just to say that externally desires conflict. And yes, this does happen all the time in harem anime, because everyone wants the protagonist. But here, internally it really is the case that each character's values conflict; they're at odds with themselves.

Shino is the best example of this, because she values intelligence and uprightness to the point that she intervenes so strongly on behalf of Saki that she's becoming a harem member herself—and she basically knows it. In possibly the only one-up Naoya has experienced so far in the anime, Shino stops him from calling the police on himself for peeping by saying it's okay he peeped. Shino has also become the most interesting of the four by doing what none of the rest of them have done: growing as a character. She's gone from thinking she shouldn't associate with people beneath her, out of some superficial kindness, to moving in with a bunch of serial idiots as another member of the idiot crew. Naoya even taught her to get past her aristocratic aloofness, that using her skills for others is real kindness, and that idiots can astonish even the brilliant. The rest of them have really gone nowhere; Nagisa has developed her skills but has the same character as at the beginning; Rika is just stubborn. Naoya is already the ubermensch; he just has to take up his role. Saki has kind of changed, but mostly laterally in that her laziness and hedonism now accommodate having Nagisa around. Saki is the most difficult character to understand, I think. She's dumb but not, she is gluttonous and lustful but also easily distracted. If Rika is the most materially vulgar of them all, and Nagisa the most morally vulgar in how willing she is to debase herself... I don't know what Saki is. Lazy? Cheap? She definitely tries desperately to get what she wants, but it's almost like she doesn't have to do as much as the others to get what she wants.

What else; we'll, there's how Naoya has changed everyone: Saki and Nagisa now value the good of their relationship with Naoya over the standard exclusivity of a romantic relationship. Everyone is elevated/debased by Naoya, to a new kind of set of values. He resembles the ubermensch in this as well. Maybe what makes Girlfriend, Girlfriend is that it insists everyone be forthright about what they want and what they're doing, rather than apologetic, discreet, or respectful. The protagonist isn't shy, restrained, or embarrassed by what's going on, and he isn't a lecher either. He seriously wants his harem to work, which is rarely a concern in the usual genre installment. ... Sigh, and since I said that I should mention: The 100 Girlfriends That Really, Really, Really, Really, REALLY Love You is not an exception to this, because the protagonist is forced to make his harem "work" on pain of death, and his girls are brainwashed to insist they must have him. And also it's stupid.

@auroraloose Thank you for explaining and sharing your thoughts. I agree with you regarding your statements about what makes each character in the anime, how they act, and what they want. To directly address Nietzsche's ubermensch you mentioned in the first paragraph: I don't know to what extent Naoya really represents a ubermensch and is not rather a radical honest man according to Brad Blanton. The basic idea behind radical honesty is to minimize or avoid lying, deception, and the hiding of thoughts and feelings in order to promote honest and transparent communication instead. This is realized by (1) speaking honestly about everything, regardless of how uncomfortable it may be (open communication), (2) telling the truth even when it is painful (avoiding lies), (3) being true to oneself and expressing one's true feelings and needs (authenticity), (4) dealing with conflict head on (conflict resolution), (5) allowing deeper connection and understanding to develop between people in relationships (relationship enhancement). The ubermensch according to Nietzsche, on the other hand, refers to a philosophical idea concerned with overcoming traditional moral norms and creating new values and norms. Of course, connections can also be made between Nietzsche's ubermensch and radical honesty: (1) self-determination and authenticity, both strive for this, (2) freedom from conventions, both want to free themselves from conventional ideas, (3) both thematize personal development.

You said that Naoya believes in something greater than himself and his honor, to which he must submit himself. Yes, that shows traits of a ubermensch. Also that Shino sees in Naoya a guy who can't muster any superhuman reasonableness and thus becomes an inhuman/brute (Albert Schweitzer). Or for example, you could argue that in episode 10 in Season 1, he overcomes conventional norms even in public and holds hands with Saki as well as Nagisa at the same time. But does he really want to impose his values on society in public with this action? Or does he not simply want to, as a radically honest man would, not deceive the two girls as well as the public, but act authentically and openly communicate to the world that they are in a love triangle, even if the truth is unpleasant for everyone involved? Or in Episode 11 Season 1, Shino confronts him that bigamy is forbidden by civil code, that he can forget about tax benefits and an entry in the family register and so on. Naoya replies that this was very informative and unfortunately does not comment further. Because this would have been the ideal time to learn more about his opinion on the aforementioned conventions. But the fact that he can't say anything about it probably means that he has never thought about it and therefore hasn't formed a clear opinion about it. If he had intended to overcome these prevailing conventions like a ubermensch, then he would have expressed so in this situation. A ubermensch could have taken a stand on Shino's confronting statements.

There is little evidence that Naoya seeks to transform society or the world around him with the creation of new values and complete liberation from moral conventions. His main goal is to nurture his relationships and resolve the associated conflicts through sincere and honest communication. I thus conclude for me, he embodies the radically honest person rather than the ubermensch.

I think in other characters from anime you can see more of a ubermensch. For example Kira from Death Note, who creates his own morality, ignores social norms and laws, and enforces his own idea of justice. Or what about Rae Taylor from this season's anime I'm in Love with the Villainess? She does anything to be with Claire and get her attention. She expresses her feelings towards Claire openly and honestly and doesn't shy away from any opportunity to get in contact with her, even if it is pushy. At the same time, she acts contrary to the norms and values of this game world, because she is just a normal commoner (not like Claire) and it is not her place to do so. Because she is so convinced of her feelings and successfully expresses this along with her mysterious effect on the other characters, she overcomes the norms and values that have been valid there until now. But of course it is debatable whether she represents an ubermensch and I also haven't read the manga.

Also, I have not read the manga of Girlfriend, Girlfriend. Who knows, maybe Naoya will act like an ubermensch in the end and solve the clash of values with a conscious revaluation of all values. Whether being ubermensch or radically honest, Naoya's manner definitely entertains.

I also agree with you about The 100 Girlfriends That Really Love You. What you mentioned makes Girlfriend, Girlfriend more appealing to me as well. However, I think that not only Naoya wants the harem, but also Rentarou in the short or long term, even if he was forced into this situation. But maybe that will just be a content-resignative attitude then. Still, it remains exciting in both anime how the MC manages the relationships, which are not just allegedly but real, with multiple girls. There can be a lot of tension when someone is forced into an unwanted situation, as Rentarou is. Relying only on his personality like Naoya probably won't work. But a large part will presumably be functional coping in the form of social-romantic management executed in unforeseen situations.

@Ophiul Nice response; I always appreciate when my comments hook the right people.

You're right, of course, that Naoya doesn't have world-historical aims like reevaluation of all values. But he definitely is creating at least one new value (or at least, relatively new). I hesitate to call it polyamory, because that word carries too much cultural/political freight, but he is trying seriously to establish a norm-breaking kind of relationship. And actually making the relationship work is the point, rather than in other harem anime where the harem just exists and is informal. Nietzsche is on my mind because I (somewhat) recently finished Thus Spake Zarathustra; an important aspect of the work is not only the ubermensch himself, but also everything that is an "arrow" or "bridge" to the ubermensch. "Much in you is still worm," says Zarathustra; the ubermensch is a work in progress. People embracing the need to create new values, and who in everything acknowledge their own wills as paramount in their actions, are arrows that point to the ubermensch. Even if Naoya isn't changing the whole world himself, he both anticipates this kind of change and is doing the kind of thing someone living in the world after the ubermensch has arrived would do. In this way Naoya embodies the ubermensch.

Light in Death Note certainly counts as someone whose ends justify his means, and who is willing to break any values to obtain his ends. He also, like Nietzsche, despises the weak of the world and is willing to use them as he likes. I'm not sure he's teaching anybody else new values, though; only he can be the god of his world. He kind of doesn't actually care about anybody else except as means. This is certainly ubermenschish, but maybe like Naoya is missing some of the pieces of the ubermensch. I haven't seen any I'm in Love with the Villainness? so I couldn't speak to that.

Anyway, thanks for the conversation. That was fun.