| Okay, so this is a theory I’ve been thinking about for a while, and hear me out—it’s a bit out there, but the more I dive into it, the more it feels like it works: Saionji and Touga are actually the same person, physically, and Touga is basically the idealized version of Saionji. Here’s why I think this makes sense: First off, when you look at how Nanami interacts with both of them, it feels less like she’s dealing with two separate people and more like she’s processing two extremes of the same personality. Touga is everything she admires: he’s charismatic, in control, the perfect big brother figure in her mind. Meanwhile, Saionji is chaotic, impulsive, and much more emotional, representing the side of things Nanami is struggling with but doesn’t want to accept. It’s almost like they’re two sides of the same coin, rather than entirely different people. I think the idea of them being the same person physically, but presented in two different ways, aligns perfectly with how Utena plays with identity and duality. Touga is what Saionji wants to be—the polished, controlled version. Saionji, on the other hand, is the messy reality. He’s the part that can’t quite get it together, and that’s why he lashes out and acts out of anger or frustration. Nanami idolizes Touga because he represents this "perfect" version of maturity, but at the same time, she fears the chaotic side that Saionji embodies. Now, in "The Cowbell of Happiness" episode, there’s a key moment that really highlights how blurred the line is between Saionji and Touga. When Nanami runs into Saionji near the tree, Saionji suddenly adopts a calm, composed demeanor, one that’s far more in line with how Touga usually behaves. It’s a striking shift, and in this scene, Saionji feels less like his usual emotional self and more like Touga—detached, yet authoritative. This sudden change makes it seem like Saionji is stepping into Touga’s role. The way Saionji speaks to Nanami in that moment mirrors how Touga would—confident and controlled, as if the two of them are two sides of the same person. It’s as if the emotional chaos of Saionji recedes, and the idealized version of Touga takes over. This scene really blurs the line between them and supports the idea that they might be two facets of one internal conflict. Nanami’s interaction with Saionji in this moment isn’t like her typical interactions with him—it feels more like she’s talking to a version of Touga, showing how these two characters might not be as separate as they appear. In this sense, Touga and Saionji aren’t just different characters—they’re reflections of how people, especially Nanami, project their desires and insecurities onto others. Saionji is Touga, but one is the idealized version Nanami wants to see, while the other is the real, flawed version she’s trying to avoid. Anyway, I know this is a wild theory, but with how symbolic and layered Utena is, I think it holds up. What do you guys think? Does this theory make sense, or am I reaching here? |
TapuChipOct 3, 6:56 PM
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| definitely an interesting theory! i didnt realize how strongly they were foils to one another until i read your post, its cool to think back on. i dont know if i personally think theyre the same person, but it is interesting how much they contrast each other even though theyre physically the same as you said. i guess the question is, is touga purely the idealized version? does he have no flaws? and also for saionji, is he purely the realistic version, is he maybe also not an exaggerated version of himself? i wonder. i love this theory tho and now i want to rewatch the show with this in mind lol |
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Reply to reysune
definitely an interesting theory! i didnt realize how strongly they were foils to one another until i read your post, its cool to think back on.
i dont know if i personally think theyre the same person, but it is interesting how much they contrast each other even though theyre physically the same as you said.
i guess the question is, is touga purely the idealized version? does he have no flaws? and also for saionji, is he purely the realistic version, is he maybe also not an exaggerated version of himself? i wonder.
i love this theory tho and now i want to rewatch the show with this in mind lol
i dont know if i personally think theyre the same person, but it is interesting how much they contrast each other even though theyre physically the same as you said.
i guess the question is, is touga purely the idealized version? does he have no flaws? and also for saionji, is he purely the realistic version, is he maybe also not an exaggerated version of himself? i wonder.
i love this theory tho and now i want to rewatch the show with this in mind lol
| @reysune That’s such a great point! I’m glad the theory made you see the contrast between them a bit differently. It’s definitely fun to think about how "Utena" plays with those dualities! As for whether Touga is purely the idealized version, I’d say no—he definitely has flaws, even though Nanami (and maybe even Saionji) idolizes him. That’s part of what makes this theory interesting to me—Touga is still chasing Akio’s corrupted version of the "ideal," which means even in his more polished, charismatic form, he’s deeply flawed. It’s just that his flaws are masked by his outward confidence and control, which makes him appear like the perfect version to others (and to himself). And you’re totally right about Saionji possibly being an exaggerated version of himself, too. I think his emotional intensity and impulsiveness could be seen as an exaggeration of the chaotic side that Touga suppresses. In a way, Saionji is almost too emotional, while Touga is too controlled—both are extremes, which is why they seem to represent two sides of the same person, but neither of them is truly balanced. It’s interesting to think about how they each deal with their flaws. Touga hides his behind charm and ambition, while Saionji is more outwardly messy but maybe a little more honest about who he is (even though he hates it). It makes me wonder if part of the reason they contrast so strongly is because they’re both pushing against parts of themselves that they can’t fully face. I’m so glad you like the theory, though! I’m definitely tempted to rewatch it myself to see how this all plays out again. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! |
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Reply to YuriFiend42069
I think you’re on to something. Whether or not Touga and Saioji are literally the same person though is less interesting to me than the idea of them being similar yet to be contrasted.
Colors are key here. Touga is a strong passionate red color. It’s the color of love and everyone loves Touga with obvious exceptions.
Saioji is green. It’s the color of envy and jealousy, qualities that Saioji exudes constantly. It’s also the color of a rose that doesn’t bloom. So he’s an underdeveloped loser who both wants to be Touga and yet resents his subordination to him. He wants to be the rose bride but he’s too much of a toxic jerk to hold on to it. He doesn’t have princely virtue and can’t even fake it like Touga can. That’s why he rides side car.
And that’s the connection. They’re both awful dudes. It’s just one has matured just enough to know he has to keep up appearances and the other acts like as big of a brat as Nanami.
They’re very similar in character but Saioji is too stuck being Touga’s sidekick to really be much of a character himself.
So while I’m not sure they’re literally the same person, I’m very sure they’re meant to be compared.
Colors are key here. Touga is a strong passionate red color. It’s the color of love and everyone loves Touga with obvious exceptions.
Saioji is green. It’s the color of envy and jealousy, qualities that Saioji exudes constantly. It’s also the color of a rose that doesn’t bloom. So he’s an underdeveloped loser who both wants to be Touga and yet resents his subordination to him. He wants to be the rose bride but he’s too much of a toxic jerk to hold on to it. He doesn’t have princely virtue and can’t even fake it like Touga can. That’s why he rides side car.
And that’s the connection. They’re both awful dudes. It’s just one has matured just enough to know he has to keep up appearances and the other acts like as big of a brat as Nanami.
They’re very similar in character but Saioji is too stuck being Touga’s sidekick to really be much of a character himself.
So while I’m not sure they’re literally the same person, I’m very sure they’re meant to be compared.
| @YuriFiend42069 I’m glad you brought up the color symbolism because it really supports the idea that Touga and Saionji are literally the same person, just represented in different forms. Touga’s red shows the love and admiration people have for him, while Saionji’s green is all about envy and bitterness. The unbloomed rose is such a perfect way to describe Saionji—he’s trying to be what Touga is but never quite gets there, because he is Touga, just in his more raw, unrefined state. In my theory, Touga is the polished, idealized version—the face he shows to the world, while Saionji is the unfiltered reality, the part that’s messy and struggling with insecurity. It’s not just that they contrast each other; they’re literally two sides of the same person. Touga hides his flaws behind charm, but they come out as Saionji’s envy and emotional outbursts. That’s why Saionji always feels like he’s in Touga’s shadow—he’s chasing something that’s just another part of himself. Akio plays a big role in this, too. Touga is trying to emulate Akio, the ultimate manipulator, but even that version is flawed and corrupt. Saionji, meanwhile, represents the part of Touga that can’t live up to that ideal—he’s too emotional, too raw to ever fully "be" Akio. That’s why, in my theory, they’re physically the same person: Touga is the face, Saionji is the shadow, and together they show how far someone can fall from an unattainable ideal. So for me, it’s not just about contrast—it’s about them being literally the same, with Saionji being the version of Touga that’s stuck with all the flaws Touga tries to cover up. Their dynamic isn’t just symbolic; it’s the literal division of one person into two parts, both chasing something they can never fully become. Thanks for the comment—it really adds to the idea of how they’re connected! |
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| Aw man, this is the exact cool theories I love to read! And I feel like it makes a lot of sense with the characters as well, especially when you point out individual characteristics they hold. I think I agree with the idea that they are meant to be viewed with the intention of having the audience draw comparison between them, which I think has been stated somewhere in the replies, but I was only partly skimming them. When I rewatch the series, I'll certainly keep this in mind, because I have a feeling there is more to be expanded upon, but I'll have to experience some scenes firsthand again to observe specific indications of it! |
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Reply to Enivlens
Aw man, this is the exact cool theories I love to read! And I feel like it makes a lot of sense with the characters as well, especially when you point out individual characteristics they hold. I think I agree with the idea that they are meant to be viewed with the intention of having the audience draw comparison between them, which I think has been stated somewhere in the replies, but I was only partly skimming them. When I rewatch the series, I'll certainly keep this in mind, because I have a feeling there is more to be expanded upon, but I'll have to experience some scenes firsthand again to observe specific indications of it!
| Thanks, I’m really glad the theory made sense to you! One of the scenes that really solidified this idea for me is in the cracked egg "Nanami’s puberty" episode. When Nanami runs into Saionji near the tree, the way Saionji appears feels almost like Touga is speaking through him. Saionji, normally more emotional and chaotic, is suddenly calm and composed—speaking to Nanami in a way that mirrors Touga’s usual controlled tone. It’s like Saionji has stepped into Touga’s role for that moment, continuing the influence Touga has over her. This scene really connects the two characters. The episode is all about Nanami’s confusion and fear of growing up, and she’s constantly looking to Touga as this ideal of maturity. But then Saionji comes in, and even though he’s usually so different from Touga, here he feels like an extension of the same influence—reflecting the more emotional, raw side of what Nanami is struggling with. It’s like they’re two sides of the same conflict: Touga being the distant, idealized version of adulthood and Saionji being the more grounded, emotional reality. When you rewatch, I’d definitely keep an eye on how scenes like this flow. In that moment by the tree, Saionji doesn’t feel like a separate person but more like he’s channeling Touga’s influence, as if they’re connected as two parts of the same internal struggle Nanami is dealing with. I think there’s a lot more of these subtle moments in the show, and I’d love to hear what you pick up on when you rewatch! |
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| Absolutely! And I'll keep that in mind. It truly does sound like you're on to something there... I remember on my first watch, it seemed as if the two did seem to greatly mirror each other, made to be seen as almost foils to each other in the way that they are always around each other, yet act so differently.. I was sure that I had failed to pick up on notably Saionji's role within the series, but I couldn't really quite pinpoint where, exactly. But after reading your theory, I'm sure you're onto something! Especially with, as you said, Nanami's interactions with them. I don't really remember in particular, paying attention too much to how Nanami addressed Saionji since Tougi mostly dominated that spotlight, but I'm sure there is something to be drawn from that perspective in particular. Thanks for the cool thoughts, I appreciate it when others broaden my view on a piece of media, especially one as thoughtful, interpretive, and thoroughly enjoyable as Revolutionary Girl Utena that are already in my plans for rewatching! Makes for a perfect fit! |
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