Could anyone explain the small doubt ?

Attack on Titan

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Mar 18, 9:16 PM

#51

ghier

Offline

Aug 2019

1374

SolaceWeb90 said:

ghier said:

SolaceWeb90 said:

ghier said:

deg said:
the time travel on this show is a fixed timeline meaning the past and future is already set in stone and cannot be change so eren has no freedom too he is a slave to destiny

even if you think the time travel is not fixed timeline then ymir manipulated eren and mikasa and others anyway so only ymir knows

I think that’s misleading to say it’s fixed. That is probably the intention, but that ignores the reality that actions have consequences still. Just because something is fated to happen, doesn’t mean that the actions of a character cannot give shape to that future.

Eren wasn’t a slave to destiny. He wasn’t a slave at all. He wanted that outcome and made it happen. And he was too pathetic to recognize that he chose the outcome for that reason and victimized himself by calling himself a slave to his values. What a fucking asshole.

I agree. I dont think the story implies the events exist as a fixed timeline because things cannot be changed (I'm not saying you said that), I think it implies its a fixed timeline because of Eren's actions. According to Eren, the way things happened was the best possible outcome for everyone, maybe not only for his friends but also for paradis. [Speculation] Maybe by doing a full rumbling he ends up killing all his friends, and then in the future paradis/eldians destroy each other till there's nothing left. So he opted for this option which he sees as the best one for all parties involved. A small part of the world gets to live and procreate, Eldians gets to experience freedom and explore other parts of the world (like the ocean), and his friends get to live a long life free from war and trauma. Sure we can Speculate further and say if Eren had done "this and that" things would've been better, but we also don't know how different the events might've been.

- In my interpretation Eren meant he is a slave to attempting to become free, hence making him a slave to freedom. Eren is obsessed with the idea of being free. It's the hopeless pursuit of something he doesn't have (freedom) that it makes him a slave to it. Aot says everyone is a slave to something, that's always been one of the themes of the story. Being a slave to the pursuit of freedom when you specifically-are burdened with the responsibilities that prevent you from ever being free, allows you to be enslaved by that very thing. Similar to how people become slaves to money by tying themselves towards the pursuit of it, whether its the responsibility they have at home to support their families or just the idea of being rich, therefore making them slaves to money.
- Eren doesn't remove the responsibilities from himself for what he has done, in fact he does take accountability for the horror of the rumbling by claiming all this happens because of his own actions. It's also why when Armin tells Eren to stay alive and save himself (which he could've), Eren responds by saying he doesn't deserve to live after killing that many people : "I'm sure many of them didn't want to die either", meaning despite how much he wants to live, he believes he deserves to die for his horrible actions. In fact even Armin takes some of Eren's responsibilities as well, which i thought was done beautifully in the anime.

I guess I don’t disagree with your interpretation of what Eren’s perspective was of himself in the show. And I agree that a lot is up to speculation.

But I hate the idea of Eren victimizing himself for feeling inclined to commit genocide. He simply decided that his people should live and everyone else should die. Our *freedom* over theirs. And I’m not gonna let the potential for some alternative reality where the outcome is even worse, which was not at all hinted at in the show - quite the opposite really, deter my disdain for how he portrayed himself.

Honestly I can see your perspective and to some degree I can understand it. Personally I think Eren's disdain/victimhood over his own actions is what makes his character feel more human, and that's what makes me love his character. Eren simply moving along as if he doesn't care that he's going to COMMIT GENOCIDE would make his character appear cold and evil, which I feel is more uncharacteristic of him considering even during the time skip, eren still sympathized with the people outside the island. In fact, he even says many people outside the walls aren't that much different from the people in the walls. Just because someone has decided to do something doesn't mean they stop having an emotional sentimentality over their own decisions. Just as soldiers make up their minds that they'll kill people during a war but when it comes to actually doing it, some start questioning their own decisions, others freeze up when it time to shoot, and others do manage to kill but that affects them immensely Psychologically. The point I'm trying to make is that despite people (eren) making up their minds to commit heinous acts, rarely to do people ever separate their emotions from their own decisions. Even when they've made up their minds, when it's time to actually act, people usually victimize themselves over their own personal actions. And that to me is what makes Eren feel more human, and why I love his character.

Hey sorry, had a response and MAL app deleted it on me SMH. I’ll get back to you sometime later.

Mar 19, 6:42 PM

#52

ghier

Offline

Aug 2019

1374

@SolaceWeb90

So, this rationale you have I think can be contradicted if you consider the point at which emotional turmoil becomes total hypocrisy.

The decision Eren made is based on scales that are not at all close to level. The stakes as they are laid out is that Paradis will have to preserve the royal family and sacrifice them to Ymir’s curse, so that they can maintain the rumbling as a deterrent. And they’ll continuously sacrifice someone else for the founding titan. This will force a stalemate for however long in which Paradis and the rest of the world are somewhat cut off from one another.

Eren rejected this, and chose to completely eradicate the threat, and any potential threat along with it. Literal genocide of mostly innocents.

Again, I won’t consider an alternate reality that could be worse somehow when nothing suggests this.

So Eren killed everyone outside Paradis … so that people in Paradis can be free. Not just live semi-free lives within Paradis, which they would have been able to do in the first option, but be as free as possible without external threats.

It’s got to be acknowledged that there’s a ridiculous misbalance here. And I believe it’s a misbalance that Eren realizes. This is why I find it absolutely pathetic for him to victimize himself. He chose this despite how horrible he knew it was. And it’s not a decision that was forced on him in any way. He just chose it.

I honestly think you lose the right to be viewed as humane if you’re not willing to acknowledge … that you didn’t really care all that much about the rest of the world, which is a perfectly normal and human feeling. Instead, he is a selective idealist that’s willing to destroy the world over it, and his emotional turmoil shows that he is in denial of that fact. Eren’s a fucking idiot … as he said himself.

I’d give you an example where this dilemma was handled soooo much better, but giving it would immediately spoil what happens in the story lol. If you play video games on PlayStation you’ve probably encountered it though.

Mar 19, 8:18 PM

#53

SolaceWeb90

Offline

Aug 2021

ghier said:
@SolaceWeb90

So, this rationale you have I think can be contradicted if you consider the point at which emotional turmoil becomes total hypocrisy.

The decision Eren made is based on scales that are not at all close to level. The stakes as they are laid out is that Paradis will have to preserve the royal family and sacrifice them to Ymir’s curse, so that they can maintain the rumbling as a deterrent. And they’ll continuously sacrifice someone else for the founding titan. This will force a stalemate for however long in which Paradis and the rest of the world are somewhat cut off from one another.

Eren rejected this, and chose to completely eradicate the threat, and any potential threat along with it. Literal genocide of mostly innocents.

Again, I won’t consider an alternate reality that could be worse somehow when nothing suggests this.

So Eren killed everyone outside Paradis … so that people in Paradis can be free. Not just live semi-free lives within Paradis, which they would have been able to do in the first option, but be as free as possible without external threats.

It’s got to be acknowledged that there’s a ridiculous misbalance here. And I believe it’s a misbalance that Eren realizes. This is why I find it absolutely pathetic for him to victimize himself. He chose this despite how horrible he knew it was. And it’s not a decision that was forced on him in any way. He just chose it.

I honestly think you lose the right to be viewed as humane if you’re not willing to acknowledge … that you didn’t really care all that much about the rest of the world, which is a perfectly normal and human feeling. Instead, he is a selective idealist that’s willing to destroy the world over it, and his emotional turmoil shows that he is in denial of that fact. Eren’s a fucking idiot … as he said himself.

I’d give you an example where this dilemma was handled soooo much better, but giving it would immediately spoil what happens in the story lol. If you play video games on PlayStation you’ve probably encountered it though.

[So, this rationale you have I think can be contradicted if you consider the point at which emotional turmoil becomes total hypocrisy]

- There's nothing hypocritical about Eren's emotional turmoil. I would argue his actions are far more hypocritical than any of his emotions. This idea that he's fighting for his and his people's freedom and yet he has no problem subjugating other innocent people's freedom and worse... to the same horrible actions that was done to him at its core makes him a hypocrite. So you can't pick and choose when you wants to acknowledge hypocrisy or when you wants to reject it, just because it doesn't follow your agenda. Aot characters stay operating on hypocrisy. So I'm confused as to why you're acting as if this is something new.

[The decision Eren made is based on scales that are not at all close to level. The stakes as they are laid out is that Paradis will have to preserve the royal family and sacrifice them to Ymir's curse, so that they can maintain the rumbling as a deterrent. And they'll continuously sacrifice someone else for the founding titan]

I agree, however that's not the only reason why Eren did the rumbling. This argument would've being more sensible if Eren was only doing the rumbling because of the reasons you mentioned above, but the story has made it clear so many times that Eren did the rumbling for multiple reasons.

[This will force a stalemate for however long in which Paradis and the rest of the world are somewhat cut off from one another. Eren rejected this, and chose to completely eradicate the threat, and any potential threat along with it. Literal genocide of mostly innocents]

- This argument is also based on assumptions. You dont have any evidence that suggest that not doing a full rumbling equates to a stalemate between Paradis and the world. In fact, Eren rejects Armin's use of a limited rumbling to only be used to destroy the threat and the weaponry, and then you'll try to make the argument that: "this wouldn't have worked long term", and again, that would be an assumption too. And please don't try to use the war that happens 2000 years onto the future (according to the anime) to make your argument, cause we hardly know anything about the future war to make any conclusive arguments. We would just be arguing about our own assumptions.

[Again, I won't consider an alternate reality that could be worse somehow when nothing suggests this]

- Nothing also suggests that a full rumbling could be better for paradis either since it never happened, so we have no idea how the lives of Eldians become with the full rumbling so you also cant claim Eren will bring piece to the eldians by committing a 100% genocide, cause again, that would be considering an alternative reality that would suggests somehow that things are great.

[So Eren killed everyone outside Paradis ... so that people in Paradis can be free. Not just live semi-free lives within Paradis, which they would have been able to do in the first option, but be as free as possible without external threats.]

- There'll always be external threats. If Eldians becomes spread out in the world, territories are bound to be built, therefore making other eldians who don't reside in those territories external threats to those who do. Let's not pretend as if Eldians are some "goody too shoes" or some kind of "saints" as if they aren't capable of evil just as the rest of the world is. So this idea that somehow Eldians will live in piece free from war or genocide is delusional. Even the story made that perfectly clear. Eren would just be reducing the world, but the threat will always be there. There'll always be those who seek to oppress or destroy others, or those who take things too far.

- Also, do you people actually think all Eldians just live in paradis and not explore 80% of the unoccupied world? To me this is even less believable than anything else people present, cause even during the times of King Fritz and even in the current timeline Eldians were still spread out towards the rest of the world. And now with the walls being gone, 80% of the world being gone, alliances being formed with the remaining people, infrastructure being destroyed for the time being and the titan curse being gone, Eldians will easily live their lives like the rest of the outside world. So no, Eldians are not "Semi-free" just because some still live in paradis, They're Just Free. Period.

[It's got to be acknowledged that there's a ridiculous misbalance here. And I believe it's a misbalance that Eren realizes. This is why I find it absolutely pathetic for him to victimize himself. He chose this despite how horrible he knew it was. And it's not a decision that was forced on him in any way. He just chose it]

You're contradicting yourself. You literally just made an argument about how Eren made a decision based on the horrible circumstances he found himself in, and now you're saying his decision wasn't forced on him? Yes it was. I may not agree with Eren's rumbling plan but Eren didnt just wake up one day and chose to do the rumbling. Eldians lives, his friends lives were at stake, not to mention he had a limited time to live. This is like making a decision while a gun is pointed at your head. So no, there was no ridiculous misbalance here and eren victimising himself is the most perfectly reasonable thing to do, cause he didn't just make this decision on a whim. And I will always be glad Eren didnt become this cold emotionless character just because he had to make tough decisions. Emotions is what makes his character great.

[I honestly think you lose the right to be viewed as humane if you're not willing to acknowledge ... that you didn't really care all that much about the rest of the world, which is a perfectly normal and human feeling]

- There's a difference between being seen as humane vs your emotions being seen as something that makes you human. Also this idea that Eren didnt care about the rest of the world is simply not true. He literally cried over the people he was gonna kill and even in the ending he still contemplated how horrible his actions were. So yeah I agree that you lose the right to be seen as humane if you don't care about the rest of the world, good thing Eren still cared, he just thought his actions were for the best for his people. And not once has Eren ever saw his actions as righteous, and rightfully so.

[Instead, he is a selective idealist that's willing to destroy the world over it, and his emotional turmoil shows that he is in denial of that fact. Eren's a fucking idiot ... as he said himself]

- This is not true at all lol. I really hate this idea of telling someone they didn't understand something but honestly I'm starting to question your comprehension of Eren's character. Cause if there's one thing Eren is known for, is the fact that his emotional turmoil was literally an acknowledgement of his horrible actions were, and not the denial of it. Eren being emotional doesn't make him an idiot (you might wanna stop watching Andrew tate lol). Also the reason Eren called himself an idiot wasn't because...[Sigh] you know what. I'm just gonna leave it here, cause I'll be opening another can of worms.

[I'd give you an example where this dilemma was handled soooo much better, but giving it would immediately spoil what happens in the story lol. If you play video games on PlayStation you've probably encountered it though.]

- I do play games, but considering your mischaracterization of Eren, I doubt this example will do nothing but make things worse, but we'll see. And hopefully the "example" you'll present has a character who's in the same predicament as Eren was, otherwise your example just falls flat. You'll be no different from the people who think Eren should've adopted Thorfinn's philosophy, neglecting the fact that Eren and Thorfinn aren't in the same position. Eren had no luxury to have no enemies.

Mar 20, 9:58 AM

#54

ghier

Offline

Aug 2019

1374

@SolaceWeb90

Bruh, you just told me I can’t make any conclusions about what would happen because it’s a fantasy world … that’s not an acceptable argument

In that case, you can’t criticize just about any fantasy for plotholes or inconsistencies because “pff, idk, maybe it works out for … some … reason.” What?! That’s such BS.

The reality of the political situation was also presented as such in the show for fuck’s sake. It makes sense too. Nuclear weapons work the same way in the real world. What more do you need to know before it’s no longer just a BS assumption in your eyes?

No other reason was given for Eren’s decision either. Just a bunch of vague nonsense in the conversation with Armin. You can’t use that as evidence of something else. It doesn’t even hint at what the alternatives were.

Ima stop, it doesn’t feel like the way you’re breaking down my arguments is objective is any sense, so no point in defending most of it.

Only credit I’ll give you there is that it isn’t entirely new. Reiner did the same thing in essence. Although, the scales are so much less imbalanced. And he’s also got his upbringing to blame for the decisions he made. The regret he faces comes from his growth as a person. Eren on the other hand knew exactly how wrong it was before he made the decision to do the rumbling. Then played the victim card after the fact.

Mar 20, 11:48 AM

#55

SolaceWeb90

Offline

Aug 2021

ghier said:
@SolaceWeb90

Bruh, you just told me I can’t make any conclusions about what would happen because it’s a fantasy world … that’s not an acceptable argument

In that case, you can’t criticize just about any fantasy for plotholes or inconsistencies because “pff, idk, maybe it works out for … some … reason.” What?! That’s such BS.

The reality of the political situation was also presented as such in the show for fuck’s sake. It makes sense too. Nuclear weapons work the same way in the real world. What more do you need to know before it’s no longer just a BS assumption in your eyes?

No other reason was given for Eren’s decision either. Just a bunch of vague nonsense in the conversation with Armin. You can’t use that as evidence of something else. It doesn’t even hint at what the alternatives were.

Ima stop, it doesn’t feel like the way you’re breaking down my arguments is objective is any sense, so no point in defending most of it.

Only credit I’ll give you there is that it isn’t entirely new. Reiner did the same thing in essence. Although, the scales are so much less imbalanced. And he’s also got his upbringing to blame for the decisions he made. The regret he faces comes from his growth as a person. Eren on the other hand knew exactly how wrong it was before he made the decision to do the rumbling. Then played the victim card after the fact.

[Bruh, you just told me I can't make any conclusions about what would happen because it's a fantasy world ... that's not an acceptable argument]

- No I didn't. Not even remotely close to anything I said. I don't want to accuse you of not being able to read, so please read what I said again or quote me word for word when you I said "you can't make any conclusions about what would happen because its a fantasty world". Please don't ever misinterprete my arguments again to suit your own narrative, it makes you seem disingenuous, cause nowhere did I make such an argument. if you didn't understand my arguments, it's better to ask than to assume and be wrong and then blame me for your own misconceptions.

[In that case, you can't criticize just about any fantasy for plotholes or inconsistencies because “pff, idk, maybe it works out for ... some ... reason." What?! That's such BS]

- What the hell lmao. When did I say that? I'll wait for you to quote me when I said that again. Where is this energy of constantly misinterpreting my arguments even come from? It's so weird it feels like someone else is typing your arguments. It feels like you know you are wrong and yet your ego can't allow you to accept that, who knows really. But this energy you're giving off wasn't there the first time. That's why I thought maybe you were someone even though we disagreed, you at least were genuine and reasonable enough to understand where others are coming from, and we might come to an agreeable conclusion. But this switch up of arguing is like Titanfolk levels of disingenuity, cause you keep misrepresenting my arguments to a ridiculous degree, and then arguing against something I never said.

[The reality of the political situation was also presented as such in the show for fuck's sake. It makes sense too. Nuclear weapons work the same way in the real world. What more do you need to know before it's no longer just a BS assumption in your eyes?]

- What are you even talking about and which point are you even refering to. I'm honestly confused at this rate cause nothing you're responding to has anything to do with anything I said.
Also no, this idea that Titans work as nuclear weapons just isn't true. Sure you can draw a few similarities, but they're definitely not even remotely close to being the same.

[No other reason was given for Eren's decision either. Just a bunch of vague nonsense in the conversation with Armin. You can't use that as evidence of something else. It doesn't even hint at what the alternatives were.]

- This is not true at all. There are plenty of reasons why Eren was doing the rumbling, he wanted his friends to live long lives, he wanted to protect paradis from incoming threats, he also did it for Ymir, he also did it to protect historia, he also did the rumbling because he wanted to flatten the world because it didn't align with his own version of what the world should look like based on Armin's book (that's also what Eren considered freedom by way). Those were mostly his core reasons for the rumbling. You don't have to like his reasons, or you might even prefer one reason over the other, but to claim his reasons were "vague nonsense" is just objectively false. People are so used to protagonists having 1 goal that when they face a protagonist that has multifaceted goals it feels like they have to choose one, when that's not always the case.

[Ima stop, it doesn't feel like the way you're breaking down my arguments is objective is any sense, so no point in defending most of it]

- Yes I am breaking down your arguments objectively. There's no point defending against my points because either you didn't read half of what i said or you didn't like that my arguments didn't appeal to your own agenda so you ignored it, or maybe you just had no arguments against my points... which is ok too, but you'll never admit it. Everything I said or responded to broke down every little argument you made and responded to it in every detail possible. So no, everything you said here just isn't true at all. Name 1 argument that I didn't break down objectively? alongside the quotes I asked for, cause you're the one who seem to be doing what you're accusing me of. So yeah you're better off not responding back, especially if in this recent post is how you'll be talking from now on.

[Only credit I'll give you there is that it isn't entirely new. Reiner did the same thing in essence. Although, the scales are so much less imbalanced. And he's also got his upbringing to blame for the decisions he made. The regret he faces comes from his growth as a person. Eren on the other hand knew exactly how wrong it was before he made the decision to do the rumbling. Then played the victim card after the]

- This isn't true any way shape or form. Reiner knew exactly what he was going to do was horrible as well, but he did it anyway because that would've gave him praise from Marley as a "hero" or as he put it "an honorary Marleyian", and he thought that would've also made his father accept him as a result, or made his mother proud of him. Not once was Reiner ever blind to his actions even as a kid, he always knew how terrible his actions were. Both Eren and Reiner knew exactly how horrible their actions were and still made those decisions regardless, and then became emotional as a result of what they were going to do, and rightfully so. The only difference is that Reiner got to "redeem" himself while Eren didn't. So again, this is just not objectively true.

Mar 22, 9:56 AM

#56

ghier

Offline

Aug 2019

1374

Hey @SolaceWeb90

Apologies about earlier. Kind of realized my approach to the conversation was way too staunch on my own perspective, and that it kind of wastes time to be that way in an argument.

I haven’t read your reply just because I don’t want to put more emotional energy into this, but don’t take that as further disrespect of your opinion. I’ve kind of just burned myself out.

Mar 22, 10:11 AM

#57

SolaceWeb90

Offline

Aug 2021

ghier said:
Hey @SolaceWeb90

Apologies about earlier. Kind of realized my approach to the conversation was way too staunch on my own perspective, and that it kind of wastes time to be that way in an argument.

I haven’t read your reply just because I don’t want to put more emotional energy into this, but don’t take that as further disrespect of your opinion. I’ve kind of just burned myself out.

Thanks for this bro, I can understand where you're coming from. I really appreciate this, i wish you all the best. it's all passion in the end. Stay blessed.

Mar 22, 10:12 AM

#58

SolaceWeb90

Offline

Aug 2021

Thanks for this bro, I can understand where you're coming from. I really appreciate this, i wish you all the best. it's all passion in the end. Stay blessed.

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