Hikaru no Go "Assassination at Honnoji Temple" - Missing Kou? - Forums

Mar 13, 2015 9:02 AM

Offline

Aug 2012

9

I can understand your agony. :P

You found two of the ko's, but not the third. In go the sides and especially the corners tend to complicate reading. If you look at the circles you used to mark the two ko's; there's a third where the circle markers meet. That black stone has only one liberty but if white captures it; this stone also has only one liberty but can't be captured directly which means it's a ko. Hope this helps.

Apr 24, 2021 8:09 PM

#3

Shiro_shi

Offline

Jan 2012

107

I know this is really old but I can't help it.

I'm not an expert, but if black takes at red 2, doesn't that patch of white die? So, red 2 isn't one of the three.

I've marked the three spots I think are Kou.

Jan 12, 2023 10:18 PM

#4

fuwwwaiiii

Offline

Aug 2012

9

Shiro_shi said:
I know this is really old but I can't help it.

I'm not an expert, but if black takes at red 2, doesn't that patch of white die? So, red 2 isn't one of the three.

I've marked the three spots I think are Kou.

It's hard to explain so, this is what I believe is going on. Hope this helps. Every move in the sequence is forced from here on too. So I assume it's a draw?

Jan 13, 2023 1:40 AM

#5

Butterfly_White

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Dec 2010

2903

To make things clear for ppl, it's actually 4 ko on the board. It's jus from each side's perspective, there are 3 ko to handle for the group of stones inside, on each side.

If I use the above poster's picture, the two middle ko affects the death and life status of the two groups of stones inside. While the one on the right affects the white stones inside, the one on the left affects the black stones on the inside.

This does not mean it will end in a draw, but the entire board situation played from beginning to end, can affect the final outcome of who gets to capture the stones and if its worth the tradeoff to the entire situation on the rest of the board. But within that situation itself, it will definitely result in an endless loop as you can only capture one ko per turn and your opponent will do the same too with another ko, if it only involves the local situation.

To capture the stones on the inside on either side, one person has to give up on 3 turns on the rest of the board, which is very unlikely. So it may sound similar to a seki (where both players can't make a move and are at an impasse). This kind of situation with many ko usually only happen when both players ignore the existence of the ko until quantities of it build up.

To put it back into the story, the reason why it can't be deviated from, is that, there is nothing on the rest of the board that is worth the sacrifice of the stones inside on both sides, so both players will continue to either play this endlessly, or both players will ignore the entire local situation completely and continue playing on the rest of the board as usual.

Jan 14, 2023 3:43 AM

#6

fuwwwaiiii

Offline

Aug 2012

9

Butterfly_White said:
To put it back into the story, the reason why it can't be deviated from, is that, there is nothing on the rest of the board that is worth the sacrifice of the stones inside on both sides, so both players will continue to either play this endlessly, or both players will ignore the entire local situation completely and continue playing on the rest of the board as usual.

You are correct, you can see practically the whole board and have to assume Black has the top left corner. The captures come from the local situation most likely.

But it is White's turn which means he has to play locally or Black kills and ends the battle, it's probably over 25 points for Black, the rest of the board looks like pro level play so it's over for sure if White plays away.
That's why it's a forced sequence without deviation.

fuwwwaiiiiJan 14, 2023 4:07 AM

Jan 14, 2023 11:12 AM

#7

Butterfly_White

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Dec 2010

2903

fuwwwaiiii said:

Butterfly_White said:
To put it back into the story, the reason why it can't be deviated from, is that, there is nothing on the rest of the board that is worth the sacrifice of the stones inside on both sides, so both players will continue to either play this endlessly, or both players will ignore the entire local situation completely and continue playing on the rest of the board as usual.

You are correct, you can see practically the whole board and have to assume Black has the top left corner. The captures come from the local situation most likely.

But it is White's turn which means he has to play locally or Black kills and ends the battle, it's probably over 25 points for Black, the rest of the board looks like pro level play so it's over for sure if White plays away.
That's why it's a forced sequence without deviation.

Oh, I talk abt things in general and forgot that the stones hv no liberties left. You are correct that Black has the upper hand here because its territory looks to be more secured on the lower right. I'm pretty sure most of Hikaru no go games came from historical pro games so yea, pro level play.

Tho, if white captures one in the middle of either ko, and black takes the one on the left due to shortage of liberties, after that 2 moves, both sides hv slight room to breathe. At the 3rd turn, white can turn away from the local situation, and target the stones in the middle right and middle top. It's not obvious to beginners but experienced players can tell those stones are weak in connections and there are a lot of points where white can push black to respond around that area. If that entire area is not responded to by black at critical moments and became a secured white territory, you can see the game turning ard quickly for white.

For white, this game is not going to be easy. It is likely that both sides will start to ignore the ko at the 3rd turn n 4th turn and switch back n forth from there in the entire game.

Jan 15, 2023 2:06 AM

#8

fuwwwaiiii

Offline

Aug 2012

9

Butterfly_White said:
Tho, if white captures one in the middle of either ko, and black takes the one on the left due to shortage of liberties, after that 2 moves, both sides hv slight room to breathe. At the 3rd turn, white can turn away from the local situation, and target the stones in the middle right and middle top. It's not obvious to beginners but experienced players can tell those stones are weak in connections and there are a lot of points where white can push black to respond around that area. If that entire area is not responded to by black at critical moments and became a secured white territory, you can see the game turning ard quickly for white.

For white, this game is not going to be easy. It is likely that both sides will start to ignore the ko at the 3rd turn n 4th turn and switch back n forth from there in the entire game.

That's well spotted
I didn't even bother to read that sequence out, possibly because it seems so scary to leave it alone lol.
White could probably cut off the three stones directly at move 3 (@J7) in this case, it looks like it will connect up to White's group on the right side using the aji of the group of 4 dead W stones, while having the 3 Black stones in the center weak and cut off with a potential to split top and right side groups of Black, looks very good for White actually.

But it's a major headache to think of the complexity that will follow with the triple ko/ko factory seki area.

Jan 15, 2023 3:10 AM

#9

Butterfly_White

Offline

Dec 2010

2903

fuwwwaiiii said:

Butterfly_White said:
Tho, if white captures one in the middle of either ko, and black takes the one on the left due to shortage of liberties, after that 2 moves, both sides hv slight room to breathe. At the 3rd turn, white can turn away from the local situation, and target the stones in the middle right and middle top. It's not obvious to beginners but experienced players can tell those stones are weak in connections and there are a lot of points where white can push black to respond around that area. If that entire area is not responded to by black at critical moments and became a secured white territory, you can see the game turning ard quickly for white.

For white, this game is not going to be easy. It is likely that both sides will start to ignore the ko at the 3rd turn n 4th turn and switch back n forth from there in the entire game.

That's well spotted
I didn't even bother to read that sequence out, possibly because it seems so scary to leave it alone lol.
White could probably cut off the three stones directly at move 3 (@J7) in this case, it looks like it will connect up to White's group on the right side using the aji of the group of 4 dead W stones, while having the 3 Black stones in the center weak and cut off with a potential to split top and right side groups of Black, looks very good for White actually.

But it's a major headache to think of the complexity that will follow with the triple ko/ko factory seki area.

I assume you hv some experience playing?
Actually, I was talking abt the stones ard p12 as the middle right side and m16 as the middle top side. A direct cut at J7 won't work because there are mistakes on the bottom right, with the stones ard n4 and the corner being dead too. The 3 black stones ard G7 might be what you are looking for, tho the likely response to J7 cut is J8. There is also a stone ard c10 from the picture on the middle of the left side of the board. Tho, the 3 stones are separated from most other stones, the direct cut at J7 only serves to help those 3 black stones and if extended upwards can end up killing the entire O7 white group.

The complexities ard the area of the triple KO and the sequences and mistakes before that leading up to here is pretty huge. Add that further to managing the game on the entire board makes it really complicated. An indirect attack on p12 or m16 is what I envisioned the most ard that area for an entire white grp, one that is somewhat coming into play in 2 or 3 moves if any sacrifices of the KO grp is to be made. The problem is that black can respond with a wall surrounding the left side, which means you hv to play for reductions of territories or further complications ard the top left of the board. Furthermore, the 2 bottom areas of both sides are not fully secured and can affect final outcome of the scores but that's more for endgame. The top right corner of white can be invaded too and even the white grp ard n7 looks like it has cutting points for black to gain territories.

Basically, capturing the huge area ard p12 and m16 might turn the game ard for white depending on the other outcomes as well. If the area ard n4 is alive, then your idea cutting at J7 will really come to shine.

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