| Why did the Federation include that part about involving Newtypes in the government in the Universal Century Charter anyway? I thought they were democratic or something. |
fluxinite said: Yeah, but my question is, wouldn't that mean that the democratic Federation government at the beginning of the UC were elitists who thought humanity (non-newtypes) should be ruled by a superior race? Seems contradictory. And if that's the case, what does that mean for the message of the Gundam franchise?I haven’t seen unicorn in a while but wasn’t that the point of the anime? That they put them in the charter as a sign of change towards that whole new type debate in that universe. And that since the original charter was lost they made a new one completely removing the new newtype theory that the charter was for, thus giving the plot for the entire story |
Yunzii said: I called them superior because they have superpowers... And I'm not talking about how they are treated in 0096, I want to know why the government at the beginning of the UC included this undemocratic article in the charter and why the show didn't criticize that.Newtypes are discriminated against, not the superior race? What did you watch bro lol |
| @Starpulsar Thanks for the explanation, but I'm not fully convinced yet. The article says (taken from Gundam Wiki) In the future, should the emergence of a new space-adapted human race be confirmed, the Earth Federation shall give priority to involving them in the administration of the government. It doesn't mention Zeon Daikun's theory, nor could they know that humanity will actually develop that way. It could've just as well developed in a way that's detrimental to democracy, no? |
| Man, I really wanna know this |
Miggzy64 said: Oh I didn't even pay attention to the author. That's unfortunate, but I suppose this solves the mystery. Thank you for your answer.mazuchi said: I called them superior because they have superpowers... And I'm not talking about how they are treated in 0096, I want to know why the government at the beginning of the UC included this undemocratic article in the charter and why the show didn't criticize that. I think the show doesn't critique it because it agrees with the message. His Space Battleship Yamato stuff also leans slightly umm undemocratically, let's say. Been a while since I watched Unicorn but you can really feel that it is not Tomino's Gundam. Unicorn re-writes a lot of early UC events to make its narrative work, but if you retroactively put the events described in Unicorn into 0079 for example it all falls apart. |
mazuchi said: Yunzii said: I called them superior because they have superpowers... And I'm not talking about how they are treated in 0096, I want to know why the government at the beginning of the UC included this undemocratic article in the charter and why the show didn't criticize that.Newtypes are discriminated against, not the superior race? What did you watch bro lol I think you are misunderstanding the charter. It isn't meant to say that newtypes should rule, and there is nothing undemocratic about it. All it is really saying, is that if a new group of humans emerges, then they should have representation in government, just like everybody else. Not that they should rule the government. However, the Federation doesn't want to give the colonies representation, because they would rather rule over the colonies, and that is like, the whole plot of Unicorn. One side wants to get the original charter because they want more freedom from Earth, and the other side wants to continue oppressing the colonies so they don't want the charter getting out. |
Saku_k said: Here is the article:mazuchi said: I called them superior because they have superpowers... And I'm not talking about how they are treated in 0096, I want to know why the government at the beginning of the UC included this undemocratic article in the charter and why the show didn't criticize that. I think you are misunderstanding the charter. It isn't meant to say that newtypes should rule, and there is nothing undemocratic about it. All it is really saying, is that if a new group of humans emerges, then they should have representation in government, just like everybody else. Not that they should rule the government. However, the Federation doesn't want to give the colonies representation, because they would rather rule over the colonies, and that is like, the whole plot of Unicorn. One side wants to get the original charter because they want more freedom from Earth, and the other side wants to continue oppressing the colonies so they don't want the charter getting out. In the future, should the emergence of a new space-adapted human race be confirmed, the Earth Federation shall give priority to involving them in the administration of the government. I think this goes beyond just giving them the right to vote and be elected. One group is given priority. What that means exactly is up to interpretation of course (for us and in-universe!), but I think that's definitely undemocratic. |
mazuchi said: Saku_k said: Here is the article:I think you are misunderstanding the charter. It isn't meant to say that newtypes should rule, and there is nothing undemocratic about it. All it is really saying, is that if a new group of humans emerges, then they should have representation in government, just like everybody else. Not that they should rule the government. However, the Federation doesn't want to give the colonies representation, because they would rather rule over the colonies, and that is like, the whole plot of Unicorn. One side wants to get the original charter because they want more freedom from Earth, and the other side wants to continue oppressing the colonies so they don't want the charter getting out. In the future, should the emergence of a new space-adapted human race be confirmed, the Earth Federation shall give priority to involving them in the administration of the government. I think this goes beyond just giving them the right to vote and be elected. One group is given priority. What that means exactly is up to interpretation of course (for us and in-universe!), but I think that's definitely undemocratic.That is just Engrish. In Gundam, the common language is English, so they like to write in English on things like that, also signage, letters, etc, but the grammar is often bad. They aren't saying to give the group priority over another group, they just mean to take seriously the idea of involving them in government. Like when a government says they are prioritising the economy or something. If you watched Unicorn it would be pretty obvious what it is supposed to mean. |
Saku_k said: I looked up the Japanese translation and it's very clear to give priority to them (優先的に参画させる).mazuchi said: Here is the article: I think this goes beyond just giving them the right to vote and be elected. One group is given priority. What that means exactly is up to interpretation of course (for us and in-universe!), but I think that's definitely undemocratic. That is just Engrish. In Gundam, the common language is English, so they like to write in English on things like that, also signage, letters, etc, but the grammar is often bad. They aren't saying to give the group priority over another group, they just mean to take seriously the idea of involving them in government. Like when a government says they are prioritising the economy or something. If you watched Unicorn it would be pretty obvious what it is supposed to mean. 将来、宇宙に適応した新人類の発生が認められた場合、その者たちを優先的に政府運営に参画させる。 https://ameblo.jp/notabene/entry-12558541634.html |
mazuchi said: Saku_k said: I looked up the Japanese translation and it's very clear to give priority to them (優先的に参画させる).That is just Engrish. In Gundam, the common language is English, so they like to write in English on things like that, also signage, letters, etc, but the grammar is often bad. They aren't saying to give the group priority over another group, they just mean to take seriously the idea of involving them in government. Like when a government says they are prioritising the economy or something. If you watched Unicorn it would be pretty obvious what it is supposed to mean. 将来、宇宙に適応した新人類の発生が認められた場合、その者たちを優先的に政府運営に参画させる。 https://ameblo.jp/notabene/entry-12558541634.htmlYes, give them priority in being a part of the government. A better translation would be, "The Earth Federation shall make it a priority to involve them in the administration of the government." There is nothing in the Japanese there that would suggest the Newtypes would rule the Earth Federation. Again, this is all very clear if you watched the series. You even seem to understand that putting Newtypes in charge doesn't make any sense, hence your making of this thread and asking things like why it is never criticised in the series. |
Saku_k said: Yes, not completely rule by them, that was wrong. But don't you think they would have worded it very differently if they just wanted to give importance to ensuring equal rights? Even if I'm wrong about what they meant, the way it's worded it would be very easy for someone like Degwin Zabi to misconstrue it.mazuchi said: I looked up the Japanese translation and it's very clear to give priority to them (優先的に参画させる). https://ameblo.jp/notabene/entry-12558541634.html Yes, give them priority in being a part of the government. A better translation would be, "The Earth Federation shall make it a priority to involve them in the administration of the government." There is nothing in the Japanese there that would suggest the Newtypes would rule the Earth Federation. Again, this is all very clear if you watched the series. You even seem to understand that putting Newtypes in charge doesn't make any sense, hence your making of this thread and asking things like why it is never criticised in the series. Well I have watched it and it wasn't clear to me. And another user above pointed out that the author has shown similar sentiment in other works, do you know anything about that? |
mazuchi said: Saku_k said: Yes, not completely rule by them, that was wrong. But don't you think they would have worded it very differently if they just wanted to give importance to ensuring equal rights? Even if I'm wrong about what they meant, the way it's worded it would be very easy for someone like Degwin Zabi to misconstrue it.Yes, give them priority in being a part of the government. A better translation would be, "The Earth Federation shall make it a priority to involve them in the administration of the government." There is nothing in the Japanese there that would suggest the Newtypes would rule the Earth Federation. I'm not really sure I understand what you mean. Even if we assume that they wanted Newtypes to have power (of some kind) in government... that isn't undemocratic. There is nothing in the charter outlining how they would be given roles in government or what their roles would be. For example, even if we assume that the charter was meant to give Newtypes some power in government, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be elected. Or, the Newtypes could be appointed by people who are elected. As an example, in the US, members of the Supreme Court have a considerable amount of power, but they are not elected. They are instead appointed by the President, who is elected. Or, in my country of Canada, members of the senate are not elected. The government chooses them. I think most people would still consider the US and Canada to be democracies though. In fact, I'm sure most democracies of the world work this way, some participants in government are elected, others are not. The UC charter only has a vague line about having new humans adapted to space involved in government. We have no idea what this would look like or how it would play out, and I think a lot of assumptions are being made to automatically assume it is undemocratic (or worse). As for Degwin Zabi, I have no idea what to tell you. He was already at war with the Earth Federation anyway, so I'm not sure what difference it would make if he misconstrued it. But it's been like, 100 years since I've seen the original Gundam so I can't add much more than that. Well I have watched it and it wasn't clear to me. And another user above pointed out that the author has shown similar sentiment in other works, do you know anything about that? Nah, I have no idea about that. The author of Unicorn is not the creator of Yamato. He was a lead writer for Yamato 2202, the sequel to 2199 (which he had nothing to do with), but he was not the only writer and I am not even sure if that user has seen 2202 as it isn't on his list, but maybe he just forgot to add it. That user seems to not really remember Unicorn a whole lot (referenced by the fact that he mentions it's been a while) and seems to talk more about how it doesn't feel like a Tomino work. This is obviously true, because it isn't written by Tomino, but Tomino himself can be pretty hit or miss anyway. All this being said, I don't think Unicorn is a particularly great Gundam series, and it has its problems. But there isn't really anything wrong with the charter itself. |
| @Saku_k You're right, it depends on how it is implemented. But I think there is a very realistic risk that some newtypes will become part of the government because they're newtypes and not because they're qualified, which, even if it doesn't count as undemocratic, is not a good thing. |
More topics from this board
Poll: » Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn Episode 5 Discussion ( 1 2 )masurao - May 19, 2012 |
84 |
by Yes_that
»»
Aug 29, 2024 7:56 PM |
|
Poll: » Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn Episode 3 Discussion ( 1 2 )Ranlos - Mar 6, 2011 |
87 |
by Yes_that
»»
Aug 20, 2024 3:38 PM |
|
Poll: » Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn Episode 1 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 )TechnicsMKII - Feb 19, 2010 |
216 |
by Yes_that
»»
Aug 4, 2024 6:12 PM |
|
Poll: » Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn Episode 7 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )MikelAL93 - May 16, 2014 |
299 |
by JoexySun
»»
Aug 3, 2024 11:58 PM |
|
Poll: » Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn Episode 6 Discussion ( 1 2 )stAtic91 - Mar 2, 2013 |
70 |
by JoexySun
»»
Jul 29, 2024 12:36 PM |