[Warning: Some spoilers ahead about "Your Name" (YN) and "Weathering With You" (WWY). Also, this composition may be too long and boring for you ;)]
Sorry, but these are just thoughts I have to somehow let out! :)
Okay, so I've just watched the movie and maybe I'm a little bit late on the controversial moral issue concerning Hodaka's decisions, but like most people here, I also don't feel quite satisfied with the ending... which in this case I don't consider to be a bad thing. Don't get me wrong, I am happy for the two love birds. I don't know if some of you feel this way sometimes, but this is just one of those moments where I feel so pissed about a show just because it is so good. In the case of WWY, I liked the idea that renders the audience morally divided on the issue which is something we don't see often. For me, this is something that gives the audience something to think about in their life which kind of also shows where their moralities really lie when subjected to a similar situation.
I don't consider WWY's ending to be a perfect happy ending, but yet it is still a happy ending. And like some people, I also initially thought that what Hodaka did was stupid and selfish but the more I watched the movie, the more it made me think and feel his shoes. Now on whether I think what Hodaka did was morally correct or not, I don't think it was completely wrong. If we would just consider only Hodaka's actions and reasons for saving Hina at the expense of a drowned Tokyo, yes, MAYBE it was selfish. But was it completely wrong to save a life?... her life? Especially one that has gone through some pretty rough patches and didn't even get to enjoy much of life? Do we really have the right to blame him for being so reckless? I don't completely think so. The "rational" part of me tells me that he was wrong but the deeper, honest side of me just says that I would have probably done the same thing for any of the people I love. And I feel that if I was in Hodaka's shoes and I let Hina go, I would have lost the last thing that holds me into this world after undergoing some tough personal shit (whatever it is). But anyway, here are a few sents from me as to why I think that what Hodaka did was right:
1. I don't think that the Maidens we're "chosen" so that the weather could be returned to "normal", but rather they were chosen so that they could serve as some sort of tool for humans to use and benefit from it. If you would remember the old man in some shrine Natsumi and Suga interviewed, he said that there was nothing abnormal about what was happening in Tokyo. He mentions that this has always been happening even before people started recording history and that the weather changes even if we humans wanted it or not. Maidens existed back then to "fix" the weather or as the old man in the shrine put it, bring "wishes" into the sky for them to be granted. But he also mentions something about us humans being only "temporarily allowed to stay in the space between the earth and the sky". This is why something is taken from a Maiden whenever she attempts to change the weather against how nature wants it to be--because we humans were not supposed to go to the sky to deliver "wishes"--because we are not supposed to be changing nature to begin with. And Maidens being considered as "sacrifices" to "fix" the weather while knowing these repercussions all those years just shows how selfish and low most humans are when they are willing to exchange another person's life for their own comfort, something that is shown when Suga remarked on how he is okay to have Hina sacrifice her life to correct the weather. We could see more of this when Hodaka, Hina, and Nagi decided to push through with the Sunshine Girl job. If you would notice, none of the requests actually had an important reason for the weather to be changed. Most of them, if not all, are for personal reasons, all of which didn't even have any significant impact to save Tokyo or its people or contribute to saving it and them even for a little bit. A cosplay event, a kids event, a fireworks showcase, a commemoration of a death anniversary (sorry Taki Grandma), etc.. How do these even help or save Tokyo and its people? How are these requests worth it for a young girl's life? This is where I think Hodaka's decision morally supersedes the idea of having Hina be sacrificed for everyone's sake. Though Hodaka's love for Hina was the main reason for taking away the people's sunny days, Hodaka still valued Hina's life more than everyone else, more than any of the "wishes" they received, more than any of the lives of the people who requested these selfish personal requests. For him, Hina wasn't a tool or a sacrifice, but as someone who deserves to be happy and live in this world too even if his days of being able to get a tan under the sun is gone.
2. Ever since the start of the movie, not a single person was reported to be killed or gravely affected by the "abnormal" weather. Which is something I think Shinkai did purposely and did not try to delve into because he wanted to show what most people in society, in general, would think and do if they were put in such a situation. If we're to compare to "Your Name", people in Mitsuha's hometown were supposedly bound to be killed by the meteor which by luck or whatever, Taki was able to know beforehand (afterward?) and was able to warn Mitsuha the one last time they switched bodies--a luxury which Hina and Hodaka didn't have by the way. But in WWY, not a single soul was taken. And it was not even mentioned that lives were in danger because of the never-ending rains (again considering the Sunshine Girl requests). This is why I don't think the weather--the spirits (water fishes, dragons, etc.) for that matter--really meant to harm the people in Tokyo. They are just there because that's what they do. They have always been a part of the world--a part of nature. Or maybe they are there trying to convey some message (more on this later). Regardless, in the end, no one was reported killed and we see how society was even able to recover/adapt within 3 years. Nobody was even shown to be pissed. Even Suga and Taki's Grandma wasn't pissed on what happened to Tokyo. Maybe not fully happy, but they were not pissed at Hodaka or Hina even though I think they have some idea that it was they who caused it. Notice also when Hodaka logged in their website after 3 years, no request was made to save Tokyo or any of the people in it. It would have been a different story if lives were actually shown to be at stake or if there were requests to the Sunshine Girl that concerns life and death situations, and Hina and Hodaka still didn't think carefully and decided to save themselves--then I would be also really pissed!--but there wasn't. This I think is one of the main points that make the decisions made by the MCs in YN and WWY different--the build-up and presence of endangered lives. If there were lives involved, Hodaka may have decided to let Hina go (or join her if he really wanted to) and Hina let herself be consumed by the fishy spirits for all we know. The movie deemed it more important to show us what kind of wishes people made during the "abnormal" weather, show us where their happiness and priorities lie, and somehow show us the selfish side of humans rather than show us how lives could have been endangered from whatever decisions the MCs make. This is why I think Hodaka's decision really fits the situation in the movie. Somehow, he is given the luxury to save Hina from being a sacrifice only at the expense of people's happiness and comfort compared to Taki and Mitsuha's memories in exchange for actual people's lives.
3. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Suga represents society in general. I think this is somehow true, but to be more specific, I believe Suga represents people who are struggling to be a part of society and who are also being forced to be someone who they are not just because society's "standard" dictates that "doing this and this" is what it is like to be a "mature, rational, and moral" citizen. These things are exemplified by Suga's remark on how he would be okay if Hina is sacrificed so that the weather could be better (something that I found to be very similar to how some of the haters of the movie think), and also how he cuts ties with Hodaka the moment Hodaka was being hunted by the police so that he wouldn't incur any more record or add more to his already bad "image" (as implied by his mother-in-law being a runaway and all) while taking custody of his daughter. If you would think about it, this way of thinking was mostly dictated by how society would have thought as a whole and how society would have judged you if you have done something unlikable to them without even knowing your reasons for it. But, as I've said earlier, Suga represents a part of the society who is "forced" to be someone they are not. Later in the movie, we see how he finally contradicts his previous remarks and actions. This starts at the moment when the police tells him that Hodaka escaped and is trying to throw his life away just to see some girl. We see Suga finally snap and see him unconsciously cry and say something that implies that he has been in a similar situation with his wife. This is where Suga finally shows his true colors, the version of himself before society changed him. Despite trying to cut ties with Hodaka earlier to save himself, he now goes to Hodaka to convince him to turn into the police while also offering to accompany him. And when the police finally caught up and got to Hodaka, seeing how Hodaka is struggling to get away to get to the woman she loves, Suga becomes infuriated and attacks them--now without any more further regards for his records/image before taking custody of his daughter--and lets Hodaka get away, which I think finally signifies that he would have probably done the same thing as Hodaka if he was given the chance to see his wife again, even if he knew the weather will be screwed--now this time, contradicting his remark of sacrificing Hina earlier. We would now see here how Hodaka and Suga really are alike (aside from being runaways) just like how it was often mentioned in the movie. But now, how are all of these related to justifying Hodaka's decisions? I would say in a sense that Suga represents most of us who think or thought that Hodaka's decisions were plainly selfish and stupid, but if put into a similar situation where we had to make a decision in exchanging the life of any of the people we love just so that the weather could be returned to normal, albeit temporarily, could we really make that choice? At that same exact moment, wouldn't most of us still choose the "weather to stay crazy" rather than lose the people we love--like for Hodaka, for Suga, for some of us--the reason for why we are still living? Actually, I'm not directly justifying Hodaka's decisions here, but I am trying to indirectly justify it based on what we, society in general, and as vulnerable human beings who are capable of love could have really done if we were the ones in Hodaka's shoes regardless if we were some teenage kid (Hodaka) or some adult (Suga) in love.
4. Although it was never stated in the movie before Hina became a maiden, I think it was slightly implied that it was already raining for days when her mom was shown in the hospital. This is the main reason why Hina went to the torii and prayed so hard so that she could have one last chance to walk with her mother on a sunny day. If Hina decided not to pray, it's possible that there wouldn't even be a maiden to grant sunny days in the movie. I really think that the people were just lucky to have someone like Hina around to have a chance to see the Sun even just for a little while. The rains would have still gotten worse even if Hina didn't become the maiden. Tokyo was bound to be flooded eventually even before Hina became the maiden. And even if Hina did completely become a sacrifice, another person was bound again to be sacrificed and undergo such pain. How is that really moral and okay? Which is why I really think Hina doesn't owe anyone anything. Especially considering how selfish people are (again with the requests). She and her brother already had it rough in life (by the looks of it without even a father) and they deserve to be happy. Even Nagi thinks her sister deserves to live a normal teenage life. I think everybody should be given the chance to be happy unless you're some bastard, but they aren't, are they? That goes the same with Hodaka. While it's true we don't know the reason why he run away from home, but for a person to be pushed and decide to do that and leave the comforts of his home, he must have gone through some terrible pain. And what Suga, Natsumi, Nagi, and Hina have given him is a place in the world to live in, even if it was flooded, a place where he could finally be happy and live and breathe. He could have chosen to live in his probably normal-weathered hometown but he instead decided to endure the terrible weather he had in Tokyo and be happy with whom he is with. He even went back after 3 years of agonizing probation, right? And the situation has become a lot worse then. Also, remember that these guys are still teenagers. They still have their lives ahead of them. If anyone should be sacrificed, it should be the people who don't value life as much as these kids do. And the "abnormal" weather or the presence of the weather spirits may not even be caused by these two kids! Hence to my last point...
5. I honestly didn't realize this until I've read it somewhere but WWY heavily implies or at least acknowledges the threat of climate change. I don't really need to expound on this but my point here is that the only reason these kids are being considered to be "immoral" in what they did is because of something they didn't even cause in the first place. If we really factor in climate change in the movie, then if it weren't for the generations before them, there wouldn't be even a need for a Maiden to stop the never-ending rain and there wouldn't be an immorally-labeled Hodaka in the first place. If there is someone to be blamed for the "abnormal" weather, it would be those who caused climate change or those who are still denying it. Hodaka and Hina just represent a part of the generation that suffers from their predecessor's mistakes and who were also burdened with the task of trying to save the world they were born into. And really, to deny what little happiness they can still get from this wretched world they didn't even cause... Don't you think that's a bit too much?
I may be trying reach too far in some of these points (or maybe all, hehe) but the idea of Hodaka and Hina being completely labeled as reckless, immature, or selfish, or whatever without even considering what they've been through and also how people around them act and treat them just doesn't sit right with me.
Like some of you, I think there was nothing heroic about what the MCs have done in the movie. I think that's because it wasn't really meant to be heroic. I think one of the main things this movie wants to show us is how people cope-up and make their decisions when it comes to these kinds of situations especially when we encounter something similar in real life. I think the chance of being able to see someone we love or someone we lost in exchange for something that isn't really easy to sacrifice would most likely push any person to make uncalculated, rash decisions if it happened to him/her in real life.
Also, I do apologize for the shitty writing. English isn't really my first language but I tried to proofread this as much as I can and as hard as I can because even I think it's still poorly written. And I really tried to organize my thoughts on this but it seems like I still failed. Hehe.
These are just a few of my sentiments and I do respect that each person has their own opinion about the morality on what the MCs did.
If you've read this far, thank you very much for your time and have a great day! :)
you have shifted my perspectives on the movie. i liked it from the start but your explanation made me see the movie in a brighter light. thank you for sharing your thoughts! i enjoyed reading it.
You made a great explanation thanks, I wouldn't have been aware of these details without you :3
I really liked how the movie was "immoral" from a rational point of view, it gives more impact and depicts the human mentality in an interesting way.
(read your post as the credits were rolling, felt even better!)
I really enjoyed reading your thoughts. It made me more satisfied with the way the movie ended. I was thinking to my self if I could choose a person I love but we had to live with a lot of rain I think I would still choose a person I love. Hodaka definitely did nothing wrong. A friend who I watched the movie with me asked me what I thought and I quoted Thanos saying "A small price for salvation" and "perfectly balanced as all things should be". Kind of reminds me of the subreddit r/thanosdidnothingwrong. Imagine a r/hadokadidnothingwrong :D. Anyways thanks if you read my short ramble.
To put it simply, he flooded Tokyo to save one girl.
No amount of 'shallow' emotional attachment can downplay his irrationality.
In terms of the "Trolley problem"
He sacrificed the livelihood of the Tokyo population to save Hina.
However, this leads us to another ethical dilemma where is the livelihood of a population greater than the value of a human life?
Therefore, the situation depends whether the audience value on a human life. Where his decision is justified due to an inherent 'sanctity' of human life or irrational for it violates the greater good ("absolutism").
Humanity is not worth sacrificing yourself for.
We brought climate change on ourselves, we deal with and suffer the consequences.
Those kids shouldn’t have to go through that kind of pain.
Obviously when I realised about that topic, i felt very intriguing about this dilemma. At one side, it's obviously very irrational to sacrifice for one's selfish reason. And at other side, whatever the decision Hodaka took, was seem to be justified in his eyes. Everyone has their fair chance to be happy, and no one is forced to be sacrificed for the human beings. At any cost, this cycle of sunshine girl was never ending. So even after if Hina would have sacrificed herself, I was going to be another girl for the stake and it goes on. Infact, they did nothing wrong in the first place to get through all these pains.
However, it's still very subjective to individuals like how they perceive this situation.
I'll flood the whole world if it's for someone I care/love. Morality is based on perspective afterall.
Sacrificing your own loved one [can be your mom, lover, daughter, etc] to save 100 or 10,000 or even 1,000,000 people you never met or seen? Not going to happen
