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drunk said: Tanrim said: The Silvius coming out of the fight intact does seems like a serious stretch. Don't care how good the armor or the crew is. Name any battle that had 100 to 1 odds that turned out like that. Well, the battle wasn't a complete disaster and some parts were pretty good regardless. 3/5 History lesson. USS Enterprise CV-6 During the last two weeks of December 1941, Enterprise and her group steamed west of Hawaii to cover those islands while two other carrier groups made a belated attempt to relieve Wake Island. After a brief rest at Pearl Harbor, the Enterprise group sailed on 11 January, protecting convoys reinforcing Samoa. On 1 February, the task force raided Kwajalein, Wotje, and Maloelap in the Marshall Islands, sinking three ships, damaging eight, and destroying numerous airplanes and ground facilities. Enterprise received only minor damage in the Japanese counterattack, as her group retired to Pearl Harbor. At least Silvius did not sink a ship. USS enterprise fighters sunk 3 ships. They got damage and take refuge back at Pearl Harbor. Same as Silvius running being chase torwards the Glacies border. That's interesting if true. Will look into it later myself. Exploring history like that seems pretty worthwhile. Thanks for the heads up. As for the Silvius, maybe so, the only thing I might disagree with off hand is it not sinking any other ships. Think it did a couple points in the battle. In the very least the ships in front when it broke though had to have taken serious damage for them to be removed as an obstacle. Didn't see a lot of that first hand, though, so hard to say for sure. |
Tanrim said: drunk said: Tanrim said: The Silvius coming out of the fight intact does seems like a serious stretch. Don't care how good the armor or the crew is. Name any battle that had 100 to 1 odds that turned out like that. Well, the battle wasn't a complete disaster and some parts were pretty good regardless. 3/5 History lesson. USS Enterprise CV-6 During the last two weeks of December 1941, Enterprise and her group steamed west of Hawaii to cover those islands while two other carrier groups made a belated attempt to relieve Wake Island. After a brief rest at Pearl Harbor, the Enterprise group sailed on 11 January, protecting convoys reinforcing Samoa. On 1 February, the task force raided Kwajalein, Wotje, and Maloelap in the Marshall Islands, sinking three ships, damaging eight, and destroying numerous airplanes and ground facilities. Enterprise received only minor damage in the Japanese counterattack, as her group retired to Pearl Harbor. At least Silvius did not sink a ship. USS enterprise fighters sunk 3 ships. They got damage and take refuge back at Pearl Harbor. Same as Silvius running being chase torwards the Glacies border. That's interesting if true. Will look into it later myself. Exploring history like that seems pretty worthwhile. Thanks for the heads up. As for the Silvius, maybe so, the only thing I might disagree with off hand is it not sinking any other ships. Think it did a couple points in the battle. In the very least the ships in front when it broke though had to have taken serious damage for them to be removed as an obstacle. Didn't see a lot of that first hand, though, so hard to say for sure. I believe most of the airships that were sunk during the battle were by the vanship fighters rather than the guns of the Silvus herself, since she was too busy trying to evade, provide covering fire or had the smokescreen blocking targeting. Would have to check the episode again to be sure though. The vanships would've used similar techiniques to what Fam and Milia used against the flagship: target a weakpoint by using superior agility. |
Magebane said: Perhaps this seems nitpicky, but personally I just cant enjoy fully something that I feel makes little sense. Which, in the end, is all that matters from a personal standpoint. I was thinking about this overnight and here are my thoughts. First, regarding Fam's character (not her actions), it's just a personal thing for me - her character traits, both positive and negative, just appeal to me. Nothing to be done for that. Now, for the rest. When I saw Star Wars the week it opened, waaaaayyy back in 1977, I was already well on my way to being a tecky geek. I remember thinking through the movie 'you can't bank in space - there is no air resistance' or "no way you could block something moving at the speed of light with something you're holding in your hand." I complained about all this to my friends, whom I'm sure neither cared nor possibly even understood. Regardless, that didn't stop me from queuing up FOUR times that same week to watch it again. I squint. I suspend my disbelief. This is Heroic High Fiction. Like the tales from Celtic Myth, the heroes are beyond larger than life and able to perform prodigious feats that are ridiculous when you stop to think about them, but that hasn't stopped their stories from being remembered and re-told for centuries, many times altered and reformed into new stories. It matters not whether it's Cú Chulainn single-handedly defending Ulster from the entire army of Connacht or Flash Gordan facing down Ming the Merciless, or an inexperienced teenager named Luke flying a space fighter at Mach 10 something hitting a 3 foot wide hole to blow up a Death Star, the stories break down if you stop to analyze them, but are fun if you don't look to closely. Nope - that doesn't say anything to address the issues that people raise here regarding some of the more unlikely events. But what I'm trying to say is I'm looking at it as a story about unlikely heroes caught up in a story that is far larger than life - it's not meant to be 'real', and I'm just willing to not look to closely sometimes if there is enough other things going on that appeal to the kid in me. |
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| The occasional lack of logic would bother me for this season if it wasn't for the first season having similar things happen as well. Last Exile has always been a little fanciful and a bit eccentric; it's part of the charm that is inherent to flying ships in the sky shooting each other. As long as it isn't stupidly ridiculous and over the top, and it's tense and exciting, I'm willing to forgive the occasional bit of that. |
Anzekay said: The occasional lack of logic would bother me for this season if it wasn't for the first season having similar things happen as well. Last Exile has always been a little fanciful and a bit eccentric; it's part of the charm that is inherent to flying ships in the sky shooting each other. As long as it isn't stupidly ridiculous and over the top, and it's tense and exciting, I'm willing to forgive the occasional bit of that. Indeed, suspension of disbelief is necessary to a certain degree. I don't recall too many people complaining about TTGL when it was out but I found it ridiculous. Other than that, bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| first the critics are attacking the scene where milia takes down a battle ship. now they shift their attention to sylvius being able to escape. sheesh! -sylvius was able to escape because ades is holding back, they want to catch sylvius alive and princess milia is on board and that gave sylvius the opportunity to escape. when the ades decided to finish sylvius because it's not willing to give up it was already late due to the fact that the battle was moving towards the borders of glacies. ades pulled their punches because of their greed and that resulted to their defeat. -there's also a disadvantage when it comes to quantity especially if the battle is taking place in the air. sylvius used a smoke screen to hide herself. ades cannot attack for the reason they might hit each other in the process thus, immobilizing their offensive. small vanships armed with missiles also used it's size and speed to it's advantage, big battle ships and cannons can't keep up with smaller and quicker targets it's like trying to shoot down a fly with a gun. -in the end, sylvius managed to escape because they used practical tactics with a little help from the borders of glacies and of course FAM. (love her or hate her she's still the main protagonist of the show! LOL) |
Smoker-samaDec 6, 2011 8:53 PM
| Wait, did the ending seem to tell that Fam Fam and the others really captured that Anshar? |
MagitoDec 6, 2011 10:52 PM
Magito said: Wait, did the ending seem to tell that Fam Fam and the others really captured that Anshar? I was wondering that as well, but I don't see how they could have. Not without another big stupid plot hole, that is. |
antisense said: Magito said: Wait, did the ending seem to tell that Fam Fam and the others really captured that Anshar? I was wondering that as well, but I don't see how they could have. Not without another big stupid plot hole, that is. Yeah, disabling a ship and actually capturing it are two different things. |
| since anshar crashed on the surface of grand lake near the border of glacies they can retrieve it anytime because they are also right there at the moment while the ades fleet needs to retreat. |
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Den-kun said: since anshar crashed on the surface of grand lake near the border of glacies they can retrieve it anytime because they are also right there at the moment while the ades fleet needs to retreat. As long as they stay on their side of the border there should be no reason they need to retreat. Launching a large military campaign like that and then just quitting also seems pretty silly. If the beat up Silvius could send someone to get it why not Ades? Then there's the biggest problem of all. It crashed. It felt out of the sky hundreds, if not thousands of feet, hard to believe it isn't a big wreck after that. |
Tanrim said: As long as they stay on their side of the border there should be no reason they need to retreat. Launching a large military campaign like that and then just quitting also seems pretty silly. If the beat up Silvius could send someone to get it why not Ades? Then there's the biggest problem of all. It crashed. It felt out of the sky hundreds, if not thousands of feet, hard to believe it isn't a big wreck after that. you should probably pay more attention when watching because it was clearly stated that the ades have to retreat because they're being attacked by glacies for staying near the border and most of their ships are severely damaged (didn't you noticed that Gyuzel, the assistant of general Sadri keeps on reporting their troop's damage?) not to mention their main flagship sank so basically they are no longer in shape to continue. the battle took place in the north coast of grand lake near the glacies border where sylvius and Fam are at the moment while the home base of ades is far away so requesting for back up or someone to pick up anshar will take time to arrive at the scene of the battle. regarding anshar being totally wreck after the crash it's only normal that it can be fixed it won't be severely damaged like sylvius just by falling to the lake. |
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Den-kun said: Tanrim said: As long as they stay on their side of the border there should be no reason they need to retreat. Launching a large military campaign like that and then just quitting also seems pretty silly. If the beat up Silvius could send someone to get it why not Ades? Then there's the biggest problem of all. It crashed. It felt out of the sky hundreds, if not thousands of feet, hard to believe it isn't a big wreck after that. you should probably pay more attention when watching because it was clearly stated that the ades have to retreat because they're being attacked by glacies for staying near the border and most of their ships are severely damaged (didn't you noticed that Gyuzel, the assistant of general Sadri keeps on reporting their troop's damage?) not to mention their main flagship sank so basically they are no longer in shape to continue. the battle took place in the north coast of grand lake near the glacies border where sylvius and Fam are at the moment while the home base of ades is far away so requesting for back up or someone to pick up anshar will take time to arrive at the scene of the battle. regarding anshar being totally wreck after the crash it's only normal that it can be fixed it won't be severely damaged like sylvius just by falling to the lake. I think they were attacked because the border was crossed during the battle. That or because they were going to cross the border. Not sure which. Border distances were being called out for a reason, though. It looked like Glacies broke off their attack because the fight had turned away from the border. They had already pulled back by the time the Anshar sank. Still think of that is a moot point, though. A ship that fell thousands of feet and crashed into the lake and only having minor damage sounds like a huge assumption on your part. Go look what happens to plains that have controlled crash landings. Some of them completely disintegrate after hitting water. The ones that don't still have things happen like being broke in half. There's also a good chance that even if the ship is intact it's at the bottom of the lake. Not exactly an ideal ship in any case. |
Tanrim said: I think they were attacked because the border was crossed during the battle. That or because they were going to cross the border. Not sure which. Border distances were being called out for a reason, though. It looked like Glacies broke off their attack because the fight had turned away from the border. They had already pulled back by the time the Anshar sank. Still think of that is a moot point, though. A ship that fell thousands of feet and crashed into the lake and only having minor damage sounds like a huge assumption on your part. Go look what happens to plains that have controlled crash landings. Some of them completely disintegrate after hitting water. The ones that don't still have things happen like being broke in half. There's also a good chance that even if the ship is intact it's at the bottom of the lake. Not exactly an ideal ship in any case. like i said and very obvious, the ades fleet can no longer stay on the battle field because most of their ships are severely damaged. man you really are persistent when it comes to capitalizing minor issues. *sigh* it's anime not real life. anything could possibly happen in anime it's not limited to the the real world's fundamental laws. if the writer wants to make a cat bark and a dog to fly it's not impossible. so don't go comparing anime situations to real life instances because it's like saying ships from last exile really exist in our world. seriously. it's so wrong to seek reality from a science fiction show. |
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| @Den-kun LOL very well said. your last statement is somehow identical to what kyon said in the series "Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu". anyway in addition to that, you can't expect reality to be applied in a show that is not actually happening in real life. unless it's a true-to-life story. a battle ship being totally wreck because of falling to a lake is a very weak argument. it's not such a big deal when it comes to anime. well in any case you're just wasting your time explaining simple things. good luck if they'll accept your arguments even if it's logical. |
Den-kun said: seriously. it's so wrong to seek reality from a science fiction show. I gotta disagree there. To me Science Fiction is mainly about what is scientifically plausible (or at least non-supernatural). Like the "communicators" in Star Trek, of which now a large percentage of the people in the world have one. When the distinction between Science Fiction and Fantasy becomes blurred then it gets tricky, but mostly the expectations for Science Fiction are that it have some basis for support from science. Things like faster than light travel are conjectural at best but are often a hallmark of Space Science Fiction and things like Star Trek wouldn't even be possible without it, though current models of physics don't outright rule out faster than light travel (Relativity just makes it clear it's probably not possible to cross the line between slower than light and faster than light, but that still leaves open other possibilities we may not know about). Setting aside "Warp Speed" and the transporter, much of the "technology" featured in the original Star Trek TV series was actually dated by the turn of the 21st century. I think the concerns being raised about the possible condition of the Anshar are valid. Unless I missed it being flashed by in the end piece, we've not yet been shown the condition of the ship, and we don't even know if Fam inspected the ship after it hit bottom - it would be entirely in character for her to just 'assume' it's there for the taking :) If it was captured more or less intact, then I'm wondering how myself. |
CratexDec 7, 2011 9:27 AM
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| Woah this is the reason why I watched the last season and why I'm still watching this one, the action in the entire episode was a pure joy to watch for me. Tatiana is starting to remind of Honor Harrington from David Weber's Honorverse. XD I admit I found shooting the Claudia pipe (which isn't even armored!) with a hand/flare gun ludicrous at first (the Death Star weak spot reference) but what the heck, it just might be Milia's lucky shot. The Glacies vanship cockpit display looks like a Guild technology to me... or maybe they're just way more technologically advanced than their neighbors which is why they can easily defend their borders. Cratex said: - nearly everybody seems ready to fight the previous, not the current war. Quite a good quote you have there, I agree. :D |
| You see there's no need to wonder where your god is, Coz he's right here! ...and he's fresh out of mercy. |
| Now, having ranted on my soap box above, I will say this. In the attack on Pearl Harbor five of the battleships sustained enough damage so they would have been lost had they been at sea. Yet, three of them were repaired and returned to service (even the capsized Oklahoma was intended to have been repaired, but after it was re-floated it later sunk at sea while being towed to the mainland). The Ades ships are supposed to be very heavily built ships - I suppose it's possible to consider repairs of even a wrecked Anshar . |
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Cratex said: Now, having ranted on my soap box above, I will say this. In the attack on Pearl Harbor five of the battleships sustained enough damage so they would have been lost had they been at sea. Yet, three of them were repaired and returned to service (even the capsized Oklahoma was intended to have been repaired, but after it was re-floated it later sunk at sea while being towed to the mainland). The Ades ships are supposed to be very heavily built ships - I suppose it's possible to consider repairs of even a wrecked Anshar . I agree it's possible but even if the main body in intact it seems like a lot more trouble than it's worth. Could be why Ades let it be, if they did. If it's at the bottom of the lake it would be an even bigger problem. I've seen a few documentaries about bringing up submerged ships. Even in shallow water it's a lot of work to pull off. On a side note I agree on your points about Science Fiction and also Fam. That's why I never brought up the fate of Anshar. Seemed more like Fam being Fam rather than any kind of plot hole. Don't know if we'll find out one way or the other, though. |
| My (11 year old) son just now watched this with me. He said "Wow!" |
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| @Magebane focusing all the attention to a very small detail such as a battle ship being totally wreck because of falling to a lake which the writer didn't even emphasize is just over reacting. i mean it's not even the highlight of the episode it's just a part of the closing scene to show that anshar was scuttled by fam and milia so why do it have to be such a big deal? it maybe a poor writing for others but expecting every single detail to be perfect and emphasizing trivial things is just taking it way too far. it doesn't make the whole story inconsistent just because the episode didn't emphasize minor details. but if they still insist the argument regarding anshar's fall... this is a very important fact: (General Sadri: "We shall confirm the sinking of silvius.") (Gyuzel: "Anguis, Lakelda, Cochlear, follow us! We're chasing the silvius!") -since they are going to chase silvius which is falling with the 03 vanship of glacies at the moment, it's just pure commonsense that anshar descent (went down) to confirm the sinking of silvius before it was shot by millia and sank making it's position low enough to survive the fall. so it's not inconsistency or magic if it shows anshar survived. @Cratex i'm really not a fan of star trek so i can't compare it with last exile. however, even sci-fi shows have some basis for support from science this is still an anime show so any little detail can be ignored and expecting it to be exactly like reality is just silly (i'm referring to the example of Tanrim). like smoker-sama said some little details is not such a big deal when it comes to anime. |
Den-kunDec 8, 2011 1:32 AM
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| It seems that Giselle has reached her breaking point (much like Lavie in the first series). There's a mixture of jealousy in there but I think seeing her father almost die is what really shook her up. She doesn't seem cut out for battle nor does she thrive on adrenaline the way Fam does. |
 ジリティック♡BEGINNER |
Magebane said: This is becoming pointless, but ah well, cant pass this up. Afterwards I'll shut up and agree to disagree. To Den-kun, that is the ageless argument about realism in fantasy, that anything can happen in sci-fi / fantasy, because it is... Sci-fi / fantasy. But it doesn't work like that, or sometimes it does, but that is poor writing. Fantasy and SF don't need to follow the rules of reality, but they Do need to follow their own rules. They need to be internally consistent. Else the imaginary world loses credibility. In this case, while LE isn't happening in our reality, they seem to follow most basic physical laws. They have gravity, falling should hurt. So there is no reason why the ship would not be smashed falling down, unless they make up a credible explanation. If Anshar survives magically ("falling does not hurt"), why did Fam tie herself to the rope in the first episode? Pardon the bad example, but the point is, Fantasy / SF can ignore reality, but they do need to stay true to their own rules. Unless it is comedy/parody, which do not necessarily need to be internally consistent. Let's wait until you see what happened to the ship before jumping to conclusions. People getting impatient these days. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| It would be funny if they just don't mention it anymore. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| ROTFLMAO |
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Magebane said: Should have known you wouldn't let me off that easy. The earlier post was an response to this. The example earlier was bad, as I said. The final fate of Anshar is unknown and we shall see how they handle it. It was there simply to illustrate the need for internal consistency ("realism") even in fantasy / SF. My issues with the episode lay elsewhere, and those have been discussed to bits already. We shall see how the show turns out, I still have high hopes. my statement regarding Sci-fi shows vs. reality was addressed to Tanrim. Tanrim said: Go look what happens to plains that have controlled crash landings. Some of them completely disintegrate after hitting water. The ones that don't still have things happen like being broke in half. which was totally expecting an anime show to be exactly like reality. he/she shouldn't have asked someone to go look for planes that crashed and expect an anime show to have the exact same outcome because if that's the case then he/she should have watched a real film based on planes instead. like i said to my earlier post, an episode that didn't focused all it's attention to a very small detail doesn't make the whole series inconsistent. if the writer didn't emphasize it, it's clear that it's not worth making a fuss about. but if you're looking for consistency my explanation about anshar's DESCENT to confirm the sinking of silvius should be clear enough. some people are already complaining if the next episode shows that anshar survived and considering it to be impossible. *sigh* that only shows that those people are not paying attention when watching. -anyway, the explanation about anshar's decent to chase down silvius before it sank is just a justification that it is not an inconsistency or magic if ever anshar survived the fall. |
Den-kunDec 8, 2011 8:42 PM
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| @Drunk i mean, an anime show doesn't have to be limited in possibilities and tell that a battle ship will disintegrate when it falls to a lake in a low altitude. right? in addition to that anshar was ordered by general sadri and his assistant gyuzel to chase down silvius and confirm its sinking which only means anshar went down to follow the falling silvius making it's altitude low enough before it was shot and sank. |
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| A couple thousand feet isn't exactly low. Despite what was said about descending the Anshar was still above the clouds before it went down which should still put it up pretty high. Thinking it's going to be a total mess might be wrong but pretending it's going to magically be fine isn't any better, really. Of course it's a moot point right now because without more information there's no way to judge one way or the other. |
| *face palm* still insisting its a "magic" in case anshar survived. *sigh* in case you haven't noticed, anshar was sinking slowly because its decreasing claudia. not to mention it's sinking tail first since the claudia engine is near the front of the ship making it sink that way so the impact shouldn't be that hard. and the fact that it is a battle ship it's only natural that its armor is not as soft as you think. so if the next episode shows that anshar survived you can't call it "magic" since a lot of possibilities are given to justify it. |
Den-kunDec 8, 2011 10:27 PM
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| Yes, magic. The only reasons I've heard as to why it would survive is because it's Science Fiction so anything can happen and they happened to descend and some how that makes them so low that falling out of the sky wouldn't do anything. Sounds like magic to me. I'm also not sure what armor has to do with anything. Pretty sure if you dropped a car and a tank out of plane both are still going to be turned into scrap. The force of serious crash doesn't seem like something armor could fix. Now if you want to argue that the ship is structurally sound enough to survive an impact with water then that's another thing. Don't think there's enough information on how the ships are put together to say either way, though. A better example might be picking up a destroyer and dropping it from thousands of feet in the air, also have a hard time buying the ship would be fine and dandy after that. Even if it didn't do something like snap in half there's no telling what the inside of the ship would be like. Still not perfect since it would drop like a rock but none the less. I tried to draw real world parallels at least. The examples of stuff crashing isn't bad but a couple isolated cases isn't exactly a pattern. Generally speaking, stuff crashes and it gets messed up. Sometimes you get crashes planes are kept together and people live but they are called miracles for a reason. There is no way to know what affects decreasing claudia would have. Just because the last shot of the ship we saw shows it moving down slowly doesn't mean it stayed like that. Without more information it's just as likely that the claudia got low enough that the engines completely died and the ship went into free fall. Even if that didn't happen expecting an unmanned, unguided ship to just gently glide down into the water seems like a bit much. Not sure why you'd think sinking tail first would help things any, either. If anything I'd think it'd make it worse. If the ship hit the water on it's belly than that might dissipate some of the impact but if it hits the water at a weird angle than it could cause even more damage. The impact of the nose or tail hitting the water alone could snap the ship in half. Also, again, this entire issue is a moot one anyway because the only real truth here is no one has nearly enough information at this point to come up with any real conclusions that aren't just total conjecture. Regardless, if the ship does survive I have no reason not to call it magic. Without more information nothing concrete has been given as to why a ship would survive that. There isn't anything to say it couldn't for sure, either, but I'd rather take the side that makes more sense to me. Ship crash, ship go ouchie. |
| now insisting that's magic is just trying to be a critic with a closed-mind insight of things. yes generally speaking, stuff that crashes gets messed up but just like what drunk posted there are some cases that a ship/plane survives and that is a possibility which can be applied to an anime show. it's not a miracle if there are some basis for its survival. claudia is the fuel used by anshar which was only decreasing and not instantly drained out due to the damage of the pipes making its sinking slow. the last shot of anshar slowly sinking was the end of that scene so that's what matters and making a conclusion that it won't stay sinking slowly is just like adding your own story and pure speculation. it's not even shown in this episode that it gained speed while crashing. you should stay with the facts. but if you still want to add some details you can always consider that since it is shown that anshar sank slowly tail first, it only means that some engines are still running somehow and the claudia is not totally drained out yet or it wouldn't be possible for it to sink that way making the impact considerably weak. so you can now remove the theory of a free fall and splitting the ship in half. my explanations are not conclusions since those are shown in the episode (anshar chasing down the falling silvius / anshar sinking slowly tail first) unlike the argument such as anshar gaining speed while falling resulting to a free fall. so like i said, exaggerating unimportant details by adding some personal ideas without considering only the facts that are given is just taking things way too far. calling it magic despite having the facts and possibilities presented in front of you is just like being a stubborn child. anshar being totally wreck sounds more magical considering the facts that are already given. saying that it's impossible or calling it a "magic" without even considering the possibilities of survival is not a wise criticism. if the next episode shows anshar survived then those facts are justified. but if it turns out the other way then that's inconsistency because the facts are being set aside and ignored. |
Den-kunDec 9, 2011 2:24 AM
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Den-kun said: now insisting that's magic is just trying to be a critic with a closed-mind insight of things. yes generally speaking, stuff that crashes gets messed up but just like what drunk posted there are some cases that a ship/plane survives and that is a possibility which can be applied to an anime show. it's not a miracle if there are some basis for its survival. claudia is the fuel used by anshar which was decreasing due to the damage of the pipes. the last shot of anshar slowly sinking was the end of that scene so that's what matters and making a conclusion that it won't stay sinking slowly is just like adding your own story and pure speculation. it's not even shown in this episode that it gained speed while crashing. you should stay with the facts. but if you still want to add some details you can always consider that since it is shown that anshar sank tail first, it only means that some engines are still working somehow or it wouldn't be possible for it to sink that way making the impact considerably weak. so you can now remove the theory of a free fall and splitting the ship in half. my explanations are not conclusions since those are shown in the episode (descending of anshar to chase the falling silvius / anshar sinking slowly tail first) unlike the argument such as anshar gaining speed while falling resulting to a free fall. so like i said, exaggerating unimportant details by adding some personal ideas without considering only the facts that are given is just taking things way too far. calling it magic despite having the facts and possibilities presented in front of you is just like being a stubborn child. anshar being totally wreck is much more magical considering the facts that are already given. saying that it's impossible or calling it a "magic" without even considering the possibilities of survival is not a wise criticism. if the next episode shows anshar survived then those facts are justified. but if it turns out the other way then that's inconsistency because the facts are being set aside and ignored. Not really. Saying something in anime can survive because some things can (by some miracle) do the same in real life is a pretty specious argument. Sure, it can happen but you agreed yourself that it usually doesn't. Since it's a point that relies on possibility and not fact there's not much point in belaboring it. Claudia is the fuel, if enough of it is gone then there is no reason not to believe that the engines couldn't just die. It's just as likely, if not more so, then the ship just slowly drifting to the ground. Take fuel away from a jet engine and it stalls, without knowing more about how the claudia drive works assuming the same seems reasonable. Some of the engines still working is possible but it's hard to say for sure, I'll look at the episode again at some point to see regardless. Still, I'm not sure what some of the engines proves. Does it mean the crash would be more controlled, like you claim, or does it mean another chaotic element is just added to the mix. A ship obvious wasn't designed to run on some of it's engines, there's no way to know what that would entail. Could cause even more stress on the ship and weaken the hull. It may slow the descent but it could open another can of worms all together. Can't say either way, though. If the ship was going to have a soft enough landing to experience no real damage, however, I don't see the need to evacuate the crew in the first place. Even if you were just doing it to be safe then why entirely abandon a ship like that? Saying to stay with the facts doesn't really make sense since you haven't provide any yourself. Saying the ship slowly went down the whole way isn't a fact, it's supposition. We don't have any way to know at this point what happened after it went below the clouds. I've never offered anything but my opinion and what could be possible on this point, I've been pretty clear about that. If my points are wrong, though, then actually address them. You skirt around them because you don't have any facts to support what you're saying. I don't either, actually. Most of what I'm coming up with is real world comparisons based on observation. In fact, my stance has always been that the ship being a wreck or being intact are both likely. As I've said, several times, without more to go on it's impossible to say either way. I just happen to believe that the ship being a wreck is the mostly likely of the two when applying real world logic. That's why I've taken the stance I have. You on the other hand have only been pushing the side of the ship being intact without anything substantive to back it up. The only point you've brought up that makes any real sense is them descending but it's still a moot point unless you can actually tell me how high in the air they were before and after. If you're 30,000 feet in the air and descend 5,000 feet you're still 25,000 feet in the air. Seems pretty high to me. Obviously those aren't the real numbers but you should see the point. Because the Anshar was still above the clouds that should put the number in the thousands. I haven't actually been ignoring anything, I've thought about everything said. In the end neither of us can put a concrete base to either side because it's all based on conjecture, there is not nearly enough definitive information to call much an actual fact. Future episodes may indeed prove what is fact or not, we'll have to wait and see. As for me being a stubborn child after facts and possibilities are presented to me, what facts? I'll give you possibilities but the exact same could be said about you. You haven't conceded to the possibility of Anshar being a mess yourself, have you? I haven't claimed anything I've said is a fact either when it clearly wasn't. But, sure, I'm the child here. |
TanrimDec 9, 2011 2:54 AM
| My problem with the Anshar thing is not really that it survived, though it obviously wouldn't have been instantly flyable. But if it was salvageable, then the Ades fleet would have retrieved it themselves. If anyone had to get away from the battlefield quickly, it was Sylvius; that was the whole point of heading for the Glacies border in the first place, to buy themselves time to run. Glacies wouldn't have attacked a salvage operation from either side unless they crossed the border, and Sylvius wasn't any more welcome there than Ades in any case. I don't see any reason for the Ades fleet to gift Sylvius their flagship. |
antisense said: My problem with the Anshar thing is not really that it survived, though it obviously wouldn't have been instantly flyable. But if it was salvageable, then the Ades fleet would have retrieved it themselves. If anyone had to get away from the battlefield quickly, it was Sylvius; that was the whole point of heading for the Glacies border in the first place, to buy themselves time to run. Glacies wouldn't have attacked a salvage operation from either side unless they crossed the border, and Sylvius wasn't any more welcome there than Ades in any case. I don't see any reason for the Ades fleet to gift Sylvius their flagship. I agree. That's actually the meat of my argument now, I think. If it was going to be in salvageable condition then why would you abandon your own flagship? It doesn't seem to make any sense. Some of the fleet may have had to withdraw but there was still plenty of ships that were perfectly fine. Could be that Ades thought it was more trouble then it was worth even if it was salvageable, too. If it's to much trouble for a super power then why wouldn't it be for Fam? Seems like it'd be way easier just to go after another ship. Honestly hope it's just what I said a while back, Fam being Fam. That the Anshar is indeed trashed and Fam was just assuming everything was hunky dory. No harm, no foul. |
| "usually don't" in real life but not always especially in anime. the possibilities and chances in anime are higher compared to real life of course. since you're saying that a free fall is what's going to happen next after the last shot of anshar sinking slowly which is totally not part of the episode, i stated but if you still want to add some details you can always consider... because you keep adding scenarios which is not even part of the episode.WTH i didn't state some facts? are you even reading my posts? or are you just quoting them blindly? you're asking the facts i provide? "the order of general sadri to confirm the sinking of silvius resulting to its decent to chase silvius and the falling of anshar slowly tail first because of decreasing claudia NOT instantly drained out" aren't those facts? tell me if those scenes didn't happen in this episode. as for your wrong point i've already pointed it out on my last post, your statement about anshar gaining speed while falling resulting to a free fall after the scene of anshar slowly sinking which is not even considered in this episode. why would i even bother answering if i'm not mentioning your points? you're always mentioning instances of reality without taking a closer look to what exactly happened in the episode and considering the possibilities that might be applied to an anime show. not considering simple things even the logic of the slow sinking of anshar is clearly a way of ignoring facts. if you don't call it a fact then why the hell did it appeared in this episode? is it just a dream of fam and millia? LOL very hilarious. |
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antisense said: My problem with the Anshar thing is not really that it survived, though it obviously wouldn't have been instantly flyable. But if it was salvageable, then the Ades fleet would have retrieved it themselves. If anyone had to get away from the battlefield quickly, it was Sylvius; that was the whole point of heading for the Glacies border in the first place, to buy themselves time to run. Glacies wouldn't have attacked a salvage operation from either side unless they crossed the border, and Sylvius wasn't any more welcome there than Ades in any case. I don't see any reason for the Ades fleet to gift Sylvius their flagship. to answer that the ades have to retreat because they're being attacked by glacies for staying near the border and most of their ships are severely damaged not to mention their main flagship sank so basically they are no longer in shape to continue or to tow a sunken ship. the battle took place in the north coast of grand lake near the glacies border where sylvius and Fam are at the moment while the home base of ades is far away so requesting for back up or someone to pick up anshar will take time to arrive at the scene of the battle. -that post is in the previous page. and since glacies is aware of the ades' actions they attacked it while silvius is an unknown ship and was injured enough to fight them so they just sent the 03 vanship over to deal with silvius. |
Den-kunDec 9, 2011 3:38 AM
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Den-kun said: antisense said: My problem with the Anshar thing is not really that it survived, though it obviously wouldn't have been instantly flyable. But if it was salvageable, then the Ades fleet would have retrieved it themselves. If anyone had to get away from the battlefield quickly, it was Sylvius; that was the whole point of heading for the Glacies border in the first place, to buy themselves time to run. Glacies wouldn't have attacked a salvage operation from either side unless they crossed the border, and Sylvius wasn't any more welcome there than Ades in any case. I don't see any reason for the Ades fleet to gift Sylvius their flagship. to answer that the ades have to retreat because they're being attacked by glacies for staying near the border and most of their ships are severely damaged not to mention their main flagship sank so basically they are no longer in shape to continue or to tow a sunken ship. the battle took place in the north coast of grand lake near the glacies border where sylvius and Fam are at the moment while the home base of ades is far away so requesting for back up or someone to pick up anshar will take time to arrive at the scene of the battle. -that post is in the previous page. and since glacies is aware of the ades' actions they attacked it while silvius is an unknown ship and was injured enough to fight them so they just sent the 03 vanship over to deal with silvius. Yes, I did see that post. From what I can tell Glacies had already stopped attacking after the Ades fleet started to retreat and sent up ceasefire signals. They only attacked because Ades and Sylvius crossed the border, I can see no evidence that "staying near the border" would result in attack. And while Glacies didn't immediately attack Sylvius, the ship was still plainly unwelcome and would have been attacked if it had refused to withdraw or surrender. As for having damaged ships, if they have even one undamaged ship that's still one more than the Sylvius crew have. Ditto for backup, Fam and Milia have no-one but the crew of the Sylvius, who would be flat out repairing their own ship after that. Still doesn't make sense to me. |
Den-kun said: "usually don't" in real life but not always especially in anime. the possibilities and chances in anime are higher compared to real life of course. since you're saying that a free fall is what's going to happen next after the last shot of anshar sinking slowly which is totally not part of the episode, i stated but if you still want to add some details you can always consider... because you keep adding scenarios which is not even part of the episode.WTH i didn't state some facts? are you even reading my posts? or are you just quoting them blindly? you're asking the facts i provide? "the order of general sadri to confirm the sinking of silvius resulting to its decent to chase silvius and the falling of anshar slowly tail first because of decreasing claudia NOT instantly drained out" aren't those facts? tell me if those scenes didn't happen in this episode. as for your wrong point i've already pointed it out on my last post, your statement about anshar gaining speed while falling resulting to a free fall after the scene of anshar slowly sinking which is not even considered in this episode. why would i even bother answering if i'm not mentioning your points? you're always mentioning instances of reality without taking a closer look to what exactly happened in the episode and considering the possibilities that might be applied to an anime show. not considering simple things even the logic of the slow sinking of anshar is clearly a way of ignoring facts. if you don't call it a fact then why the hell did it appeared in this episode? is it just a dream of fam and millia? LOL very hilarious. No, I'm not. My point is there isn't anything to go against because nothing happened in the episode to confirm or deny the Anshar being intact, or a wreak for that matter. The ship slowly dropping below the clouds doesn't prove anything other than that it still had some lift, at that moment. Saying it still had fuel then might be a fact, saying it stayed that way isn't. Unless you want to pull out a crystal ball and try to prove things that way then you can't say that it continued like that as fact, it's a guess and nothing more. So, in the end the only thing you ever proved is that they descended at one point. Of course, I conceded to that already but said it still doesn't prove much because we have no way to know how far down they actually went. You conveniently ignored that part, though, didn't you? With that said I'll say it once more just to make sure we're on the same page. Something isn't a fact unless you can actually prove it. Without further information it's impossible to prove what happened one way or the other below the clouds. antisense said: Yes, I did see that post. From what I can tell Glacies had already stopped attacking after the Ades fleet started to retreat and sent up ceasefire signals. They only attacked because Ades and Sylvius crossed the border, I can see no evidence that "staying near the border" would result in attack. And while Glacies didn't immediately attack Sylvius, the ship was still plainly unwelcome and would have been attacked if it had refused to withdraw or surrender. As for having damaged ships, if they have even one undamaged ship that's still one more than the Sylvius crew have. Ditto for backup, Fam and Milia have no-one but the crew of the Sylvius, who would be flat out repairing their own ship after that. Still doesn't make sense to me. Agree with you, again. Glacies might have still been a threat if they hadn't left but they did. They were only there to keep people out of their territory, which they did. Once Ades stopped advancing they were fine. On a side note I think I'm going to change my position a bit. The Anshar isn't going to be a big wreck on the bottom of the lake anymore, oh no! On impact with the water the Anshar is, in fact, going to open up a warp gate to the planet Shabalabadingdong where the leader, Zoltan, is going to come out and crown Dio Grand High Empress of the Seven Suns. From that point the series will be 10/10, no doubt. What? Anything is possible in anime, right? (lol) Seems pretty good to me. |
TanrimDec 9, 2011 4:26 AM
Tanrim said: No, I'm not. My point is there isn't anything to go against because nothing happened in the episode to confirm or deny the Anshar being intact, or a wreak for that matter. The ship slowly dropping below the clouds doesn't prove anything other than that it still had some lift, at that moment. Saying it still had fuel then might be a fact, saying it stayed that way isn't. Unless you want to pull out a crystal ball and try to prove things that way then you can't say that it continued like that as fact, it's a guess and nothing more. So, in the end the only thing you ever proved is that they descended at one point. Of course, I conceded to that already but said it still doesn't prove much because we have no way to know how far down they actually went. You conveniently ignored that part, though, didn't you? With that said I'll say it once more just to make sure we're on the same page. Something isn't a fact unless you can actually prove it. Without further information it's impossible to prove what happened one way or the other below the clouds. saying you're not against anything since nothing has been confirmed yet but you're insisting some examples of real life incidents and applying it to anshar. isn't that going against the idea of the survival of anshar? i'm not the one who's guessing what happened next here. in fact, i'm consistently explaining that the part where anshar is sinking slowly is the end of that scene and what happened next after that scene doesn't matter and not important. you can read my previous post to see for yourself. your statement Just because the last shot of the ship we saw shows it moving down slowly doesn't mean it stayed like that. that's your statement and that's a guess. so the one who is making conclusions that it gained speed while falling resulting to a free fall is the one taking out a crystal ball. the one who's making a guess is the one who's (again) emphasizing small details and adding stuff up (refer to the quote above). the facts that i'm referring to are the scenes that i presented. (again the order of general sadri to confirm the sinking of silvius resulting to its decent to chase silvius and the falling of anshar slowly tail first because of decreasing claudia) those are facts because those scenes are shown in the episode. if you're saying those scenes are not a fact then you're saying those scenes didn't happen. LOL i doubt if you really watched the episode if that's the case. you don't have to assume that anshar gained speed resulting to a free fall because it's not the last scene of anshar and that's guessing. it may be a possibility but like you said, it's not proven. i'm not guessing since my statements are just to justify the survival of anshar in case it did next episode, which you are so opposed to (considering your arguments). antisense said: Yes, I did see that post. From what I can tell Glacies had already stopped attacking after the Ades fleet started to retreat and sent up ceasefire signals. They only attacked because Ades and Sylvius crossed the border, I can see no evidence that "staying near the border" would result in attack. And while Glacies didn't immediately attack Sylvius, the ship was still plainly unwelcome and would have been attacked if it had refused to withdraw or surrender. As for having damaged ships, if they have even one undamaged ship that's still one more than the Sylvius crew have. Ditto for backup, Fam and Milia have no-one but the crew of the Sylvius, who would be flat out repairing their own ship after that. Still doesn't make sense to me. okay let's set that "staying near the border" statement aside but like what you said antisense said: the Ades fleet started to retreat in the case of silvius, yes it's clear that its not welcome and would be attacked if it refused to surrender but an accident happened. silvius was struck by a boulder causing it to drag the 03 vanship of glacies so the negotiation with silvius was interupted and will be continued next episode. and again like what you said antisense said: Glacies had already stopped attacking after the Ades fleet started to retreat and sent up ceasefire signals. explains that the glacies was the reason for their retreat. they simply don't want to extend the war with glacies or they woudn't have sent up ceasefire signals. |
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Den-kun said: saying you're not against anything since nothing has been confirmed yet but you're insisting some examples of real life incidents and applying it to anshar. isn't that going against the idea of the survival of anshar? Obviously. Not sure how many different ways I have to say it. I think going down would turn the Anshar into a wreck. That's my opinion, though, and like all opinions it could be wrong. I can see both sides and know either could be possible with the current facts available, which are very few. I pushed it hard hoping someone could bring something tangible that was missed to the table but it never really happened. Said examples where what I was using to illustrate how the ship could be a mess. Not much more than that. i'm not the one who's guessing what happened next here. in fact, i'm consistently explaining that the part where anshar is sinking slowly is the end of that scene and what happened next after that scene doesn't matter and not important. you can read my previous post to see for yourself. your statement Could have fooled me. It seemed to me like you kept insolently bring up the same so called fact as a crutch to justify why you thought the Anshar would still be intact. Using it to reinforce the idea that if the ship was low and falling slowly then it wouldn't take much damage. Both of which are your opinions, of course. Never saw you ever taking about how what happened below the clouds never matter, though. I actually said that myself several times in the context of it being moot since right now there's no way to prove what happened after, anyway. Just because the last shot of the ship we saw shows it moving down slowly doesn't mean it stayed like that. that's your statement and that's a guess. so the one who is making conclusions that it gained speed while falling resulting to a free fall is the one taking out a crystal ball. the one who's making a guess is the one who's (again) emphasizing small details and adding stuff up (refer to the quote above). I'm well aware it's a guess. I said as much, several times. I never said it in any other regard then what could have happened. Saying nothing changed the entire way down is just as much of a guess on your part, too. Neither can be proven yet so they validate nothing. the facts that i'm referring to are the scenes that i presented. (again the order of general sadri to confirm the sinking of silvius resulting to its decent to chase silvius and the falling of anshar slowly tail first because of decreasing claudia) those are facts because those scenes are shown in the episode. if you're saying those scenes are not a fact then you're saying those scenes didn't happen. LOL i doubt if you really watched the episode if that's the case. You're bringing this up again? I never said either one wasn't a fact, reread my post, I said they don't prove anything. I never once disputed the Anshar descent, I only said that that fact alone is meaningless without context. Sure, it descended, what? 10 feet? 20? As I said without knowing there altitude before and after that fact can't really be applied to anything. What are you trying to get at with this, anyway? Because they descended they were low? It doesn't prove that at all. Go back to the example I gave. If they started at 30,000 feet and descended 5,000 feet that still puts their altitude at 25,000 feet. The Anshar still being above the clouds before it sank is also a fact, one in which proves that it was still relatively high. Which, of course, is something I've said several times now. As for watching the episode I have twice, actually, and watched the point around the sinking several more. Nice try, though. Again, they happened but so what? Obscure facts like those without any context to tie it to doesn't really tell you much. If you can provide context then go ahead. you don't have to assume that anshar gained speed resulting to a free fall because it's not the last scene of anshar and that's guessing. it may be a possibility but like you said, it's not proven. i'm not guessing since my statements are just to justify the survival of anshar in case it did next episode, which you are so opposed to (considering your arguments). You don't have to assume it didn't go into a free fall, either. Since nothing was seen after the clouds that's also guessing. If it's not then prove to me that it did in fact keep going like that. What? Can't do that? Of course you can't. It going into a free fall is possible, nothing more, and I never pretended it was some kind of fact. Just a reasonable possibility. Also, like I said, a lot of what I wrote has to do with my opinion that the Anshar didn't survive. Since they are both nothing more than opinions right now it's just ends up being a never ending circle unless new information is brought to the table or something that's been missed gets brought up. Would be the right point to say we should just agree to disagree and leave it at that then. In the end it doesn't matter much to me either way. Think I said this already I never really cared about this to begin with, I only weighted in because of what someone else said. I can also see both sides as well so I'm not going to lose any sleep even if the Empress of the Seven Suns himself flying a gold plated, perfectly intact Anshar back to Fam. |
Den-kun said: antisense said: Yes, I did see that post. From what I can tell Glacies had already stopped attacking after the Ades fleet started to retreat and sent up ceasefire signals. They only attacked because Ades and Sylvius crossed the border, I can see no evidence that "staying near the border" would result in attack. And while Glacies didn't immediately attack Sylvius, the ship was still plainly unwelcome and would have been attacked if it had refused to withdraw or surrender. As for having damaged ships, if they have even one undamaged ship that's still one more than the Sylvius crew have. Ditto for backup, Fam and Milia have no-one but the crew of the Sylvius, who would be flat out repairing their own ship after that. Still doesn't make sense to me. okay let's set that "staying near the border" statement aside but like what you said antisense said: the Ades fleet started to retreat in the case of silvius, yes it's clear that its not welcome and would be attacked if it refused to surrender but an accident happened. silvius was struck by a boulder causing it to drag the 03 vanship of glacies so the negotiation with silvius was interupted and will be continued next episode. and again like what you said antisense said: Glacies had already stopped attacking after the Ades fleet started to retreat and sent up ceasefire signals. explains that the glacies was the reason for their retreat. they simply don't want to extend the war with glacies or they woudn't have sent up ceasefire signals. Ades retreated from Glacies territory, not from the entire area. Of course Glacies was the reason for the retreat, but Glacies was only interested in protecting their territory, once Ades was on the right side of the border that was the end of it. The ceasefire signals were just to say, "ok ok we're leaving, please don't shoot at us anymore" while Ades was trying to disengage and get out of Glacies territory. I still see no reason to believe that staying near the border to recover a ship would cause any problems. I'm not sure how the boulder hitting Sylvius is relevant; it's not like they were negotiating an alliance or anything, it was just Glacies telling Sylvius to surrender. The exchange was interrupted, but I don't see that it would have changed anything anyway. |
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