editing Ep 11 (& 12) to make more logical sense character-wise

Jun 29, 11:20 AM

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May 2023

[Little Intro]
I love Mushoku Tensei and would even consider it in my top 5 of the +150 anime I have watched. TBH I originally hated the show on my first run through until I did a rerun when the second cour of season 1 came out. I love the world building, character design, lore and how well done it is in general.
NOTE: I only watch the Anime and read the Manga with some spoilers from the LN about this episode.

[About ep 11]
NOTE: I understand that it's the authors choice on how to write their show and what directions to take it. Whether or not that fits my morals, views, or perspective on how it should be written.

That being said, I do think we can be critical of how the ep was written. Coming into an anime's new season, you come into a show with some expectations about it. for example: konosuba you expect it to be funny, Love is war is supposed to be romantic, overlord it supposed to be "logical".
That's no different for Mushoku. You expect it to be logical, well written characters, make you question choices made by characters, and give perspective to different moralities especially in medieval times. Now while Ep 11 does do this, it does it in a sloppy way.
1. ruins supportive characters to "force" the idea of a harem being introduced: the main 3 are Roxy, Elinalise, and

.
2. ruins a good amount of personal development and growth Rudeus had done in specific relationships over the 2 Season.
3. undermines the impact and momentum of Ep 10 and

4. feels just rushed in general that makes the Ep seem like they are trying to end it in 12 Ep when it should be most likely 13 (I heard that a lot of dialog was cut from this Ep in general but not much about its contents).

[rewriting Ep 11 & 12]
With that being said, I feel that the original idea (of introducing the thought of a Harem) and key points of Ep 11 can still happen with the Ep being not only more well received but more logical is character actions in general.
{In the LN originally}
1. Rudues stays on the Begaritt Continent for about a month

2. Elinalise and Geese decide to give Rudeus space during that time.
3.Elinalise will notices Rudeus is not getting better
4. Elinalise talks to Roxy about the idea of sleeping with him
5. Rudeus is the one apparently to take the initiative instead of Roxy during the sex scene

[rewriting Ep 11 & 12 Start]
{is original LN Info}
(I'm going to be using some of the LN info that was cut that I learned about) Also NOTE: that some stuff towards the end might be spoilers but I haven't read a head. The only spoiler I know of is the fact that

{#1 & #2} Instead the party will only stay in Begaritt for about a week. During this time, the party will convince Rudeus to leave so he sees his Wife and Sisters back in Ranoa (the party hopes this will both allow him to grieve with someone about

, hopefully cheer him up, and allow him to move onwards).

The party traveling through the desert is mostly the same. {#3} However Elinalise will notice Rudeus is not getting better and will act similar to when he was in the beginning of Season 2 Cour 1 before meeting broken arrow.
We would then be following the plot of Ep 12 (assuming how it will go) where Rudeus and the party return. After the reveal to his Wife and Sisters about Paul's Death, the party will disband with only Elinalise, Roxy, Zenith, and Lilith being the only ones to stay at Ranoa.

We then would see the introductions between Sylphiette & Roxy (with the help from Elinalise introducing her). As time passes Sylphiette also notice Rudeus is not getting better . As time goes on {#4} Sylphiette with some convincing from Elinalise talks to Roxy about the idea of sleeping with him.

The Sex Scene can play either way from the LN or Anime as they both add an interesting twist to the plot and Rudeus further reaction and talk with Sylphiette after. For the sake of simplicity we will use the Anime one. In this case, the scene after the Sex scene stays the same with adjustment to dialog to explain how Sylphiette & Elinalise came up with the idea.

(this further down has assumptions about the Plot of Ep 12) Rudeus would go to Sylphiette and still apologize for not being faithful and asking to marry Roxy for the sense of not only loving Roxy but for responsibility (i'll be getting into a more indepth reason at the end of my piece). While Sylphiette would be shocked (and probably upset), she would be more willing to accept Rudesus' propositions as she is now acquainted and friends with Roxy. Later we follow the original plot of Ep12 with the birth of their child and whatever the Anime has time for. [End]

[reasoning behind certain changes]
Editing the time when they leave Begaritt and have the party convince Rudeus is because of 3 reasons.
1. Doing so pushes back the Roxy Sex scene
2. This also gives time for Sylphiette and Roxy to become acquainted with one another.
3. This also will give a call back to this cours 1 & 2 of Rudeus' emptiness appearance as it will help build the foundation for the talk between Sylphiette, Elinalise, and Roxy.

Roxy staying in Ranoa:
1. Before the Teleportation incident Roxy talks about how thanks to Rudeus, Roxy went on to study to get strong.
2. This also gives another excuse for Roxy to teach magic to his Sister, take some of the tasks
Rudeus had to do before he left (for example helping Cliff and Nanahoshi with their experiments)
3. As she hasn't had Rudeus cheat on Sylphiette yet, this gives her no reason not to stay as an excuse to look out for her student.

Sylphiette & Elinalise talk to Roxy about the idea of sleeping with him. A lot of the reason for some people hating Ep 11 (especially me) is due to the fact that all his conviction of being loyal to Sylphiette went out the window after the talk with Elinalise of marrying Roxy (i'm not going to speak on the multiple reasons why due to Rudeus’s character growth this doesn’t make sense as its been discussed multiple times).
1. Sylphiette taking initiative is something we haven't really seen this season as it was talked up in the first cour. She explains to Rudy that even if she can’t be as strong as him, she can at least be there for emotional support. While at the moment she is pregnant and can’t really do much besides stay by his side, this is something she can do to try to help Rudeus by not being a bystander and taking action.
2. This moves the angle of a cheating husband on their pregnant wife to a concerned wife trying to cheer up their partner.
3. This give a good reasoning for the Roxy scene to happen (not saying the original one was bad)

So why Roxy then:
1. The introductions and eventual friendship between Sylphiette and Roxy is very important for one of the comments Elinalise made about the situation between Paul cheating on Zenith with Lilith. Zenith & Lilith weren't not only best friends but in the same party (about 5 years in the Black fangs and another 10 being Pauls and Zenith maid). This is especially important as after Zenith finds out isn't mad at Lilith but at Paul (she is still upset at Lilith but not as much as in Paul) and is trying to understand her situation and her plans for her future.
2. Out of all of Sylphiette’s friends, Roxy makes the only real sense as Princess Ariel would care about her chastity, Nanahoshi doesn’t really care for this world and has her own lover, the Alodia sister would probably be up to the idea, however they aren't as well acquainted nor are they probably Sylphiette’s ideal candidate.
3. With Roxy being friends with both Sylphiette & Elinalise, being his teacher, and probably noticing her feelings for Rudeus as both Pauls and Elinalise notice it early on.

Rudeus asking to marry Roxy
1. With these changes the news can be taken more light by Sylphiette

2. In medieval times especially, chastity was very important and (this was how it was viewed back then not my view) if lost would decrease a woman's “value” for marriage.
3. Similar to Zenith’s situation, she would be more open to agreeing to the marriage as she is friends with Roxy. In the original Sylphiette not only doesn’t know Roxy (unless she helped her father when she was in Buena Village), is more focused on praying for his safe return, but was assured multiple time he wouldn’t cheat (even was given an example to how he would feel if she had a lover).

NOTE: I want to make it VERY CLEAR that:
1. I don't consider myself a better writer than Rifujin nor do I think I'm smarter than him. (hell I barely passed my Driving License by 1 Point) & (I haven't even published a LN myself nor one as complex as Mushoku)
2. I totally understand if Rifujin was trying to make Ep 11 this way.
3. please criticize any points you feel I have is stupid point

[closing statement]
While I understand that this Ep was supposed to be controversial and question your views on the situation, the fact is that it comes off illogical and ruins supporting characters to push the making of a harem when it could have taken its time more after

to give idea a better chance of being accepted. Besides episode 11 I thought that every episode was done amazingly well (from the perspective of an Anime and Manga only watcher). I'm still very excited about episode 12 and how it will turn out (

Jun 29, 11:42 AM

henwens

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Mar 2024

username checks out

Jun 29, 12:14 PM

Zarutaku

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Sep 2016

9894

I appreciate your passion and dedication to discussing the character development and logical progression in Mushoku Tensei. Your analysis and proposed changes to episodes 11 and 12 definitely show a deep understanding of the characters and their motivations. It's clear that you have put a lot of thought into how the storyline could have been more consistent and impactful.

While it's important to respect the choices made by the creators, it's also valid to critically analyze and provide suggestions for improvement. Your ideas for restructuring the plot to give more depth to the characters and their relationships make a lot of sense and could have added more emotional impact to the storyline.

Overall, your thoughtful analysis and proposed changes demonstrate your love for the series and your desire to see it reach its full potential. It's great to see fans engaging with the material in such a thoughtful and constructive way. Keep up the great work!

No, this isn't my signature.

Jun 29, 12:47 PM

thevipinsingh

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Feb 2019

No man, whatever you do, There is no way that the decision made by Rudy and Roxy is justified during that circumstances imo.

I won't be surprised if he faces such situation again and to overcome he needs another girl probably Eris, if he meets her again. And it's a high possibility.

How the series went good to bad in a single season. It joined the Promised Neverland club.

Jun 29, 12:56 PM

er_ror

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Jan 2022

262

thevipinsingh said:
No man, whatever you do, There is no way that the decision made by Rudy and Roxy is justified during that circumstances imo.

I won't be surprised if he faces such situation again and to overcome he needs another girl probably Eris, if he meets her again. And it's a high possibility.

How the series went good to bad in a single season. It joined the Promised Neverland club.

To be fair, you should've known which anime this was the moment that thing happened with Paul and that one scene with Rudeus and Eris.

The show has always been controversial, and it most likely won't stop going any wise further.

Jun 29, 8:06 PM

Kahoshi1

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Jun 2020

if you mean went from good to great, then I agree. absolutely phenomenal show.

Jun 29, 8:57 PM

_otaku_man00

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Jun 2023

609

i like your point of view more then animes ,i don't know about novel or manga, but in anime it didn't feel good ,

Jun 30, 12:52 AM

WaterMage

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Jan 2024

1009

So in short you want Rudy to cheat on Sylphy while he is not in his worst state rather meeting her and maybe her new son.

That doesn't work atleast for me.
This is not perfect story but it's not that bad.

Jun 30, 6:18 AM

Chat_Box

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May 2023

Reply to WaterMage

@WaterMage_658
No.
My proposed edit suggest that instead of sulking for a month in Begaritt, they would only be there a week most. This would not only give them time to get back before Sylphy give birth (which I'm assuming they will already) but also build time for a friendship/relationship between Sylphy & Roxy.

I explain this before but in short: In my opinion Zenith's friendship with Lilith was a major factor as to why she was mainly angry at Paul and more worrying about Lilith as she explains her plans after helping Zenith give birth (and Zenith focusing on how dangerous and difficult her plans were).

The idea is that while Rudeus wouldn't be in his worst state of mind as he is finally back home with his wife and sisters. Rudeus wouldn't be his usual self and like Paul, drink his sorrows away at a tavern (or you could have him sulk and not leave his house like he dose in Begaritt). Roxy and Rudeus still have sex however like I suggested it would be Sylphiette & Elinalise talking to Roxy about the idea of sleeping with him.

so Yes in my proposed edit Rudeus still "cheats" on Sylphy, however it is set up by Sylphy as she comes to terms that this might help Rudeus get back to his old self.

[NOTE] I find the idea that Rudeus gets better by sleeping with Roxy dumb. The points of this proposed edit (/ alternative way of writing it) is try to find a way where the outcome of Ep 11 still happen (as I assume that the Harem does impact the story) but is In my opinion:
1. More well received (but still make you question character actions)
2. Not sacrifice character development
3. Still have the key points and outcome of Ep 11

Chat_BoxJun 30, 6:50 AM

Jun 30, 6:24 AM

#10

Chat_Box

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May 2023

Reply to _otaku_man00

i like your point of view more then animes ,i don't know about novel or manga, but in anime it didn't feel good ,

@_otaku_man00
Thank you? I'm guessing that's a complement

Jun 30, 6:44 AM

#11

Chat_Box

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May 2023

Reply to thevipinsingh

@thevipinsingh
Yea I agree totally with you that personally with or without the knowledge that it occurred 1 month gap after Paul's death its doesn't justify or make sense to me.
That being said my goal when writing wasn't to justify the action of the character to remove all wrong doing (although ill admit it does read that way). My goal was to find a way where key parts of Ep 11 still happen (Rudy & Roxy sleep together, Elinalise still talks to Roxy about the idea of sleeping with him, Rudeus trying to marry Roxy, etc.) and make sense by restructuring the actions of the characters so they still align with their views and design.

Jun 30, 7:53 AM

#12

WaterMage

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Jan 2024

1009

Reply to Chat_Box

@Chat_Box how can Sylphy say Roxy to comfort him. She is there you know sex is not the only way she can heal him. And it makes Rudeus even more bad and desperate.
The case with Paul-Zenith-Lilia is different they were living for years a few months can't duplicate that.

The main point of Roxy helping Rudy because he doesn't have his wife so she filled the gap when he needed.

Your scenario makes Rudy and Sylphy way too pathetic imo.

I am not undermining you it's good to have your opinion without throwing weird tantrums and wild baseless logics which most of the people done after ep11.
Someone else also said to me about this kindof scenario it could work but I think current version is better.

They didn't mention pregnancy excuse was a welcome change for me because it felt so natural.

Rudy helped Roxy she fell in love.
Roxy helped Rudy he returned the favour
Ik it's not that simple but..

Anyway next episode about to air I am very confident the great angel
Sylphyatte Greyrat will accept things anyway.

Jun 30, 8:39 AM

#13

blinddig

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Mar 2020

117

Harem is basically always forced and NOW yall start to have a problem with it?
At least this show tries to write dialogue and scenes where they show how they eventually accept each other as concubines rather than "i'm gonna be best girl" "no it's me"
like goddamn grow up

Jun 30, 10:29 AM

#14

Chat_Box

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May 2023

Reply to WaterMage

@WaterMage_658 Great Critique
[Roxy]
As I said during my original post my goal was to still have the key points and outcome of Ep 11. Meaning that I was against trying overly edit a scene besides for when and where it happens as it would have be impossible for me to change much. Like for example Roxy & Rudeus sleeping together since it is the center of the entire Ep. As such with that in mind I struggled how it would put it into this proposed edit. As you with that scene, it already makes Rudeus look bad and desperate.

TBH I don't know how I would fit that sex scene in and make it look decent. Putting it in the beginning is the best option as you can chalk it up to not being in your right state of mind and a honest mistake (but that stops all momentum of making it a harem which is what the author intent). The only way to move forward would then use chastity and wanting to take responsibility and marry Roxy.

This also make Rudeus look pathetic and 2 faced or make Rudeus trying to own up to his mistake and mature (depending on how you view it).
Or look like he's trying to make an excuse to marry Roxy & make it look like your not considering your wife's feeling or thought on the matter.

[Sylphy]
for Sylphy, I had a hard time picturing how to write her in as like you said without turning her into a pushover (

). Also as Ep 12 hadn't comeout I was flying without a parachute and wasn't really focusing my attention towards Sylphy as most of the problems with Ep 11 lied with in my opinion Elinalise & Roxy which I focused mainly on since I knew what they did.
yea ill admit that the ending of my edit proposal is the weakest part of the entire thing as I struggled to find a proper way to connect the Elinalise talking to Roxy about the idea of sleeping with him (one of the reason a decided to put Sylphy with Elinalise was that at least she could have a say in the matter) & Roxy & Rudeus sleeping together.
I would have scrapped the scene altogether and had Sylphy comfort Rudeus when he got back but then like i said, then the story disconnects to far from the original plot.

[Paul-Zenith-Lilia situation]
Like you said their situation can't be duplicated in a couple of months. One of the reason I brought it up in the first place was when Elinalise was trying to use it as a justification for marrying Roxy when Rudeus was already married. While Zenith & Lilia were friend for years, Sylphy & Roxy haven't even met each other. Towards the end of my final edits for this post I realized that my point didn't have much merit and was settled for it being a better point than the Anime used it for.

[END]
I think that Ep 11 is done "good" however I think for me personally the problem lies when Roxy & Rudeus agrees that it was a mistake. Then Elinalise pushing for Rudeus to marry Roxy like their talk never happened. Also that Rudeus needs sex to get better.

Thx for giving a well mannered response and being chill

Chat_BoxJun 30, 10:35 AM

Jun 30, 10:49 AM

#15

Chat_Box

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May 2023

Reply to blinddig

@blinddig
I don't have a problem with Mushoku Tensei turning into a Harem? The problem is that it was poorly executed, making it come off rushed, throwing away supporting character development over the Cours, questioning what's the point of 6 Eps if Rudeus reaffirming his loyalty to Sylphyatte if it can be shattered so easily (I'm referring to being convinced pretty easily by Elinalise).

Jun 30, 12:31 PM

#16

-TrashTaste-

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Oct 2020

In all honesty, I personally enjoyed the episodes as they were. They were a little rushed, but you can't expect an anime adaptation to include every little detail.

As for what happened in between Rudy and Roxy, people seem to forget who our main character is. Rudy is a pervert AND a Greyrat. Paul cheated on Zenith while she was present in the damn house, yet people expect someone in a teenager body to resist Roxy's advances in the state he was in? People have their lows and make mistakes. Does that justify what he did? Probably not. Does it make sense for his character? Yes, it does. The same goes for Roxy. She is in love with him, and she wanted to do something for him, even if that meant she would get the short end of the stick after everything goes through.

Not to mention that Rudy is not a good person to begin with. He may have evolved over the course of the series, but that doesn't mean he became a moral person by the standards of his old world. That happens to be yet another thing a lot of people don't seem to understand. Our morals don't align with those of the fantasy world they live in. I can disagree with things, but that doesn't give me the right to impose on these characters. Picture this: What would you do if an alien race came down to earth and started emposing their own, completely different, values on us? Would you like that? It's the same thing for this other world Rudy found himself in. And, at the end of the day, this is a piece of fiction. Feeling the need to impose your personal morals on fiction is an indication of something you need to work on in your life.

edit:
As a last mention. This is not specifically written for the OP. It's more of a rant 🗣

-TrashTaste-Jun 30, 12:34 PM

Jun 30, 1:32 PM

#17

NiftyNarwhal

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Feb 2021

Chat_Box said:
@blinddig
I don't have a problem with Mushoku Tensei turning into a Harem? The problem is that it was poorly executed, making it come off rushed, throwing away supporting character development over the Cours, questioning what's the point of 6 Eps if Rudeus reaffirming his loyalty to Sylphyatte if it can be shattered so easily (I'm referring to being convinced pretty easily by Elinalise).

To be fair he wasn’t just randomly convinced by a 5 minute convo with elina, his dad had just finished trying to speak in code mid dungeon crawl to explain he saw the beginnings of a similar situation to his own. Plus Rudy has been mentally weak in the entire series including his previous life,( although he had some pretty tough shit going on so I’m not saying it as derogatory as it comes off) the guy has shown he struggles to stay true to his beliefs without outside intervention consistently. Also although at the beginning of the series he is much more crude about the remarks and advances, due to immaturity and inexperience he has shown an interest in Roxy and Sylphy from meeting them to now. Although I like your idea of trying to give the development of him and Roxy time to breathe it has been shown throughout the in world information to be a thing that happens(multiple wives/ concubines) and that his bloodline seems to have a predisposition for it at that.

Your ideas were interesting and good thought exercises, but I think with more refinement they would be better. Still dope you are thinking so much about a show we all love.

Jun 30, 3:18 PM

#18

Chat_Box

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May 2023

Reply to NiftyNarwhal

@NiftyNarwhal
I actually really love your comment about Rudeus's weak mental. Looking back on both season, it really does paint that kind of picture. Despite the fact hey has grown as a person (even having people respect him), his mental fortitude is something that doesn't grow. Despite the facts of everything he's done so far, if something or someone breaks him, he return to his old past life habit of shutting himself from the outside world. It is interesting that his way of dealing with it is the same thing he did in his past. (never thought of it like that THANKS)

This also coincides with his struggles to stay true to his beliefs like you pointed out:
-Ep 13 of Season 2 just moments after he declared to Princess Arial about marrying Sylphy, he starts eyeing the Adoldia twins.
-when Eris offered to buy him an expensive magic book he wanted he declined as a lesson for her about spending money, later that same day she buys him the aphrodisiac (with the allowance she got after talking to her father) from the peddler he was eyeing and immediately switches.
-after being smuggled to the great forest while retrieving Ruijerd, he just sits by and watches as the slave traders murder one of the beast kids despite the fact he could have stopped it and goes against his morals.

I kind of wanna prod your brain about something as you seem way more versed and have a better understanding of MT than me. If you don't know give me your opinion.
Rudeus is Physically Paul's Child, however (soul / mentally) isn't. You talk about how Greyrat act in relation to having multiple wives. Do you think that Rudeus was reincarnated into Paul's family because they act similar, or does the fact he is Physically Paul's Child affect him?

Do you think that reincarnated people in MT despite the fact that are mentally older than their current age in MT, will be affacted mentally by their bodies current age?
Example: Rudeus's true mentally age is 37 when his current age is 5. Would you consider all of his mistakes / actions being souly related to his true age or are some affected by his current age?

NiftyNarwhal said:
Although I like your idea of trying to give the development of him and Roxy time to breathe it has been shown throughout the in world information to be a thing that happens(multiple wives/ concubines) and that his bloodline seems to have a predisposition for it at that.

Sorry if I misunderstand this point. From what your saying that it was inevitable as he is Greyrat and this is something that happens and is normal in MT.
Yea I agree with both points. While I wasn't as much on the Greyrat at frist , looking back you arn't wrong with Eris father (though he has a more of a appreciation of beastmen and would have eventually do so) and Grandfather doing so. The second is true as we are in a medieval setting. my main problem with the introduction of the harem was about ho it was done poorly and not on me being against it (while technically I prefer 1 Wife personally, I was focusing on the characters previous development not personal opinion).

NiftyNarwhal said:
Your ideas were interesting and good thought exercises, but I think with more refinement they would be better. Still dope you are thinking so much about a show we all love.

Looking back on this when I originally wrote this, while my criticisms of Ep 11 were justified to an extent, it was trying to make everything about it look excessively bad and poorly written (which was probably because of how Ep 10 impacted me coming into Ep 11). When I finished Ep 12, I went back and focused more extensively on the character's morals and beliefs (to see if my perspective on Ep 11 were clouded by emotion. they were). Looking back on Ep 11 I can see how character actions make sense.
While I would still have preferred changes, it wouldn't have been as dramatic as my original post:

Episode 11
[Elinalise talks to Roxy about the idea of sleeping with him] to [Roxy coming to that decision of her own]
1. Doesn’t make it look like Elinalise is putting Roxy’s feelings (she's known for 5-6 years) over Sylphy.
2. Roxy took the initiative to help Rudy as everyone decided to let him be by himself which wasn’t working.

[Roxy & Elinalise have their conversation after Rudy & Roxy slept together] to [it's more of an argument rather than a discussion]
1. Roxy points out the hypocrisy of her relationship with Cliff when Elinalise gets mad at her.
2. Later helps with the idea of accepting Roxy as Rudy’s second wife

[camp fire talk with Rudy & Roxy stays the same]
Key points
1. Roxy leaving after apologizing to Rudy’s wife
2. Rudy and Roxy agreeing to keep their distance despite their feelings

[removal of scene Elinalise trying to convince Rudy to marry Roxy]

Episode 12
[The first 10 min of Ep 12 stay the same but Elinalise stays for the 2nd conversation] but [Elinalise stays for the second conversation]

[Rudeus doesn’t bring up marrying Roxy. Rudeus still conveys the fact that he loves Roxy]
1. Focusing more on failing to keep his promise to by loyal
2. Despite the fact he loves Roxy, they already agreed to keep their distance despite their feelings

[Roxy also apologies and notes that she already knew that Rudy was in a relationship]

[Norm getting angry is the same besides her remarks on Rudy and Roxy are different]
1. Empathizing the fact that Rudy comes back with another woman
2.

[Sylphy stopping Roxy from leaving is the same]
1. Sylphy is the one to bring up Rudy marrying Roxy similar to how she welcomes Roxy in the anime

Ending stays the same

Chat_BoxJul 1, 9:45 AM

Jul 1, 5:16 AM

#19

Artem_budnyk95

Offline

Jun 2024

Dropped the show after that scene with Rudy and Roxy. Just couldn't handle that scene and what that done to Rudy's progression mainly, as a person(character). Maybe in the future will return to the show

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editing Ep 11 (& 12) to make more logical sense character-wise

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