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The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (light novel)
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Sep 19, 2023 1:24 PM
#1

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Sep 2023
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Don't get me wrong, i loved this movie and scored it a 9 but...

Sep 19, 2023 1:33 PM
#2

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Mar 2020
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I don't think the movie tried to hide that it was a selfish decision at all. Kyon is not some perfect white knight to want to put random strangers before his interests. And honestly speaking I would've done the same like why the fuck would I settle down for this boring and monotonous world?
Sep 19, 2023 1:47 PM
#3

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Sep 2023
215
Reply to nhc9
I don't think the movie tried to hide that it was a selfish decision at all. Kyon is not some perfect white knight to want to put random strangers before his interests. And honestly speaking I would've done the same like why the fuck would I settle down for this boring and monotonous world?
@Chadow_2B

Hmm. I'm not quite sure i agree that one necessarily needs to be a "perfect white knight" in order to put 7.5 billion random strangers ahead of one's own interests.
Sep 19, 2023 3:00 PM
#4

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Dec 2021
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As I always believe, a good time travel story should seem to be selfish.

Firstly selfishness is when you gain something by seizing others' opportunities or making things harder for them.



If you consider, multiple world lines become mutually disjoint after a significant amount of temporal distance, then once the choice is made the other option doesn't really matter.

For simplicity, suppose there are two roads, left and right, and you took the right one. Now being on the right road you can't compare your current route with the left road which you've never experienced.

The selfishness you're implying is based on the comparison between the world without "magics and stuff" and the world with them. But both worlds had separate principles and mechanisms. The inhabitants of them are completely different only having similar appearance and names. So by choosing which world he prefers, Kyon did not put anyone in danger. And if he is selfish, then Yuki is also selfish for altering the world.

𝓢𝓪𝓴𝓾𝓻𝓪
𝓚𝓲𝓷𝓸𝓶𝓸𝓽𝓸
Sep 19, 2023 3:36 PM
#5

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May 2021
183
Chronon said:
As I always believe, a good time travel story should seem to be selfish.

Firstly selfishness is when you gain something by seizing others' opportunities or making things harder for them.



If you consider, multiple world lines become mutually disjoint after a significant amount of temporal distance, then once the choice is made the other option doesn't really matter.

For simplicity, suppose there are two roads, left and right, and you took the right one. Now being on the right road you can't compare your current route with the left road which you've never experienced.

The selfishness you're implying is based on the comparison between the world without "magics and stuff" and the world with them. But both worlds had separate principles and mechanisms. The inhabitants of them are completely different only having similar appearance and names. So by choosing which world he prefers, Kyon did not put anyone in danger. And if he is selfish, then Yuki is also selfish for altering the world.

by choosing the world he prefers does create a higher chance of disasters occurring —> increase in danger. he chose the world where disasters are caused by haruhi’s mood. compare that to his other choice, a world not run by haruhi’s frame of mind, it’s obvious that the dangers wouldnt be as sky scraping. not like kyon and the others would be able to save or prevent every single time? correct me if im wrong.

“if kyon was selfish, nagato was too”
nagato’s choice was selfish, yes, but i dont get how kyon being so has anything to do with her selfishness? it’s like you blame it on her?

i liked the explanation of choosing right from left wont really do anything since left will cease to exist but i dont really think it applies to this case.
aware of the risks of both worlds, he went with the one that he liked most and was best for him (when it comes to fulfillment) instead of what was best for the rest of the humanity.
it takes us back to the beginning of the story where it was mentioned how he wished for a world filled with aliens, espers etc before realizing they did exist. it’s what he prefers: a life with risks over one that wouldnt leave him as fulfilled knowing what he couldve been.
though, he probably wouldnt have minded the normal world if it was that he didnt know about the other.
but, would he be as happy?
Sep 19, 2023 3:37 PM
#6

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May 2010
415
It's been quite a while since I watched the movie, but isn't it not just that he wants to live in the more interesting world, even if he sometimes complains about the things Haruhigets up to, but also that in the other world they don't get to all be friends? In the changed world, they're separate. Haruhi and Itsuki don't even go to North High. But in the original world, not only are things more interesting, but they all get to be friends.

I also can't help but think of this in the context of Japanese society, where normal life consists of a routine with long work hours for many people, which teenagers are soon to be facing. Kyon is kind of pushing against seeing boring stability as the best type of life.
Sep 19, 2023 4:33 PM
#7
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Jul 2022
219
Personally I agree with kyon here
Sep 19, 2023 5:32 PM
#8

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Sep 2023
215
Reply to honyax
Chronon said:
As I always believe, a good time travel story should seem to be selfish.

Firstly selfishness is when you gain something by seizing others' opportunities or making things harder for them.



If you consider, multiple world lines become mutually disjoint after a significant amount of temporal distance, then once the choice is made the other option doesn't really matter.

For simplicity, suppose there are two roads, left and right, and you took the right one. Now being on the right road you can't compare your current route with the left road which you've never experienced.

The selfishness you're implying is based on the comparison between the world without "magics and stuff" and the world with them. But both worlds had separate principles and mechanisms. The inhabitants of them are completely different only having similar appearance and names. So by choosing which world he prefers, Kyon did not put anyone in danger. And if he is selfish, then Yuki is also selfish for altering the world.

by choosing the world he prefers does create a higher chance of disasters occurring —> increase in danger. he chose the world where disasters are caused by haruhi’s mood. compare that to his other choice, a world not run by haruhi’s frame of mind, it’s obvious that the dangers wouldnt be as sky scraping. not like kyon and the others would be able to save or prevent every single time? correct me if im wrong.

“if kyon was selfish, nagato was too”
nagato’s choice was selfish, yes, but i dont get how kyon being so has anything to do with her selfishness? it’s like you blame it on her?

i liked the explanation of choosing right from left wont really do anything since left will cease to exist but i dont really think it applies to this case.
aware of the risks of both worlds, he went with the one that he liked most and was best for him (when it comes to fulfillment) instead of what was best for the rest of the humanity.
it takes us back to the beginning of the story where it was mentioned how he wished for a world filled with aliens, espers etc before realizing they did exist. it’s what he prefers: a life with risks over one that wouldnt leave him as fulfilled knowing what he couldve been.
though, he probably wouldnt have minded the normal world if it was that he didnt know about the other.
but, would he be as happy?
@honyax

That's very interesting! So it's like Steins;Gate, except here only one world/timeline will continue to exist depending on Kyon's decision instead of having multiple co-existing timelines? But what was Yuki's reason again for changing everything? She wanted to be normal? Wanted to experience emotions? I think that was it. But can a being supposedly without emotions act in a selfish manner? Or is selfishness considered an innate condition of life and not one that necessarily arises from emotion?

But getting back to Kyon, my impression is that he wasn't basing his decision on anything other than a "well that world was more interesting, more fun, so let me return to it" type of thought process which is why, to me, in the real-world it still comes across as a selfish decision with no apparent thought given to whether or not it would be good for humanity writ large. However, as i wrote in the original post, i don't think the movie intended for his decision to be seen as selfish and that's a crucial point that perhaps i was too quick to brush aside. For just like viewers need to suspend disbelief at times in order to better enjoy and better appreciate what an artist is trying to convey, they likewise need to accept the parameters of the fictional universe that the artist created rather than inserting unnecessary outside (i.e. real-world) considerations into that framework.

For otherwise you're probably better off just sticking to non-fiction works.

EDIT: oops, sorry, this reply was intended for Chronon's post
NDskiesSep 19, 2023 5:43 PM
Sep 19, 2023 5:39 PM
#9

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Sep 2023
215
Reply to YukiPwns00
It's been quite a while since I watched the movie, but isn't it not just that he wants to live in the more interesting world, even if he sometimes complains about the things Haruhigets up to, but also that in the other world they don't get to all be friends? In the changed world, they're separate. Haruhi and Itsuki don't even go to North High. But in the original world, not only are things more interesting, but they all get to be friends.

I also can't help but think of this in the context of Japanese society, where normal life consists of a routine with long work hours for many people, which teenagers are soon to be facing. Kyon is kind of pushing against seeing boring stability as the best type of life.
YukiPwns00 said:
I also can't help but think of this in the context of Japanese society, where normal life consists of a routine with long work hours for many people, which teenagers are soon to be facing. Kyon is kind of pushing against seeing boring stability as the best type of life.


I hadn't thought of that, but makes sense and you could probably also make the case that entirety of the anime series is pushing back against that sort of conformity to expectations.
Sep 19, 2023 9:09 PM

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Mar 2020
737
Reply to NDskies
@Chadow_2B

Hmm. I'm not quite sure i agree that one necessarily needs to be a "perfect white knight" in order to put 7.5 billion random strangers ahead of one's own interests.
@NDskies you are acting like they died or something. Those 7.5 billion are still alive and well. You are operating based on chance without any solid backing cause it was shown time and time again that haruhi never harmed anyone directly while not accounting for how the new world was thrown in Kyon's face and from his perspective its the fake world. Not to mention he would completely lose all his experiences and bond with the sos brigade members have to start from scratch! Who would choose something like that other than someone with a white knight complex?
nhc9Sep 20, 2023 1:36 AM
Sep 19, 2023 11:51 PM

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Dec 2021
936
honyax said:
Chronon said:
As I always believe, a good time travel story should seem to be selfish.

Firstly selfishness is when you gain something by seizing others' opportunities or making things harder for them.



If you consider, multiple world lines become mutually disjoint after a significant amount of temporal distance, then once the choice is made the other option doesn't really matter.

For simplicity, suppose there are two roads, left and right, and you took the right one. Now being on the right road you can't compare your current route with the left road which you've never experienced.

The selfishness you're implying is based on the comparison between the world without "magics and stuff" and the world with them. But both worlds had separate principles and mechanisms. The inhabitants of them are completely different only having similar appearance and names. So by choosing which world he prefers, Kyon did not put anyone in danger. And if he is selfish, then Yuki is also selfish for altering the world.

by choosing the world he prefers does create a higher chance of disasters occurring —> increase in danger. he chose the world where disasters are caused by haruhi’s mood. compare that to his other choice, a world not run by haruhi’s frame of mind, it’s obvious that the dangers wouldnt be as sky scraping. not like kyon and the others would be able to save or prevent every single time? correct me if im wrong.

“if kyon was selfish, nagato was too”
nagato’s choice was selfish, yes, but i dont get how kyon being so has anything to do with her selfishness? it’s like you blame it on her?

i liked the explanation of choosing right from left wont really do anything since left will cease to exist but i dont really think it applies to this case.
aware of the risks of both worlds, he went with the one that he liked most and was best for him (when it comes to fulfillment) instead of what was best for the rest of the humanity.
it takes us back to the beginning of the story where it was mentioned how he wished for a world filled with aliens, espers etc before realizing they did exist. it’s what he prefers: a life with risks over one that wouldnt leave him as fulfilled knowing what he couldve been.
though, he probably wouldnt have minded the normal world if it was that he didnt know about the other.
but, would he be as happy?

In the early part of the series Kyon and Koizumi talked about Anthropic Principles and if I remember correctly Kyon rejected this perspective. Now if you say Kyon's decision made the world dangerous, we are again accepting the Anthropic Principle. This implies, the universe will evolve into such a chaotic one only to be experienced by Kyon.

1) Considering, the universe evolved only for Kyon: Selfishness is limited to the aspect of the universe because two different universes have different principles and are mutually disjoint. Just like you can't compare the "rightness" or the left road or the "leftness" of the right.

2) Considering, Kyon only chose a pre-existing universe: Here he has no control or effect on the chaotic characteristics of the universe. Just like the right road, it was a mere choice which is unalterable to him.

This was not a trivial Trolley Problem to Kyon. He was only told the destination of the two tracks. Once one track is chosen the other track ceases to exist in the universe. Thus they become incomparable on any basis.

Finally, how you can be so sure this world is safer. It can be possible that all the catastrophes happened/happening in this world is because of some teenager's mood swing and The 'Agency' is keeping it hidden from us.

𝓢𝓪𝓴𝓾𝓻𝓪
𝓚𝓲𝓷𝓸𝓶𝓸𝓽𝓸
Sep 20, 2023 1:25 AM
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Jan 2019
118
It’s clear that Kyon loves Haruhi more than Yuki. I’m personally more of a Yuki fan, but I stand by his decision. Kyon was the only one who had the power to choose between universes and what kind of idiot wouldn’t choose for their own happiness. And it’s not like his choice really mattered anyway since we have a spin-off series where the alternate universe is thriving.

Kyon’s decision was selfish, but everyone is selfish in one way or another. I think the selfless main characters in anime are unrealistic.
Sep 20, 2023 9:35 AM

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Sep 2023
215
Reply to nhc9
@NDskies you are acting like they died or something. Those 7.5 billion are still alive and well. You are operating based on chance without any solid backing cause it was shown time and time again that haruhi never harmed anyone directly while not accounting for how the new world was thrown in Kyon's face and from his perspective its the fake world. Not to mention he would completely lose all his experiences and bond with the sos brigade members have to start from scratch! Who would choose something like that other than someone with a white knight complex?
Chadow_2B said:
@NDskies you are acting like they died or something. Those 7.5 billion are still alive and well. You are operating based on chance without any solid backing cause it was shown time and time again that haruhi never harmed anyone directly while not accounting for how the new world was thrown in Kyon's face and from his perspective its the fake world. Not to mention he would completely lose all his experiences and bond with the sos brigade members have to start from scratch! Who would choose something like that other than someone with a white knight complex?


From my original post: "...essentially Kyon appears to be saying that his happiness matters more than providing the world with a (more or less) stable existence in which it isn't always on the brink of disaster according to whatever mood Haruhi happens to be in." As you say, humanity would be alive and well but for how long? In the series i remember at least one episode where Haruhi unwittingly almost destroyed Earth. The one where her subconscious created giant force-like monsters. But it's not just Haruhi. There's also Koizumi's esper group and Nagato's group of super powerful aliens. But i concede ultimately you're right since of course the real GOD of Kyon's world is Nagaru Tanigawa and therefore the inhabitants of said world can rest assured that he'll never let them get wiped out....(or at least i'm pretty sure he wouldn't do that, would he?).
Sep 20, 2023 11:17 AM
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May 2021
307
honestly thinking about it, kyon and haruhi and the sos brigade continuing their lives as normal people would have been a fantastic conclusion to the story. Then again, this movie is perfect as is, and maybe not changing anything is for the best.
Sep 20, 2023 2:59 PM
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Dec 2021
1
the whole movie is a very elongated love triangle.
the first two seasons works as to give us the reasons behind on everyone's motives for the movie, Kyon is very vocal about his displeasure with Haruhi but deep down he really enjoys her and by extension the Brigade's friendship.

Haruhi likes Kyon and wants to have fun, Yuki Likes kyon and is so dead tired of having to deal with Haruhi and the entities' will.

When given the option neither Haruhi or Yuki really have any care for other's opinion on any matter, Haruhi does it unintentionally as she doesn't know she can bend reality to her will, Yuki does intentionally but is unsure if her choosing is right thus gives Kyon the power to change her choice if need be.

When given into the options of if you should go back to a world where everything and anything can happen and reality constantly balances over the hubris of a teenage girl or one where nothing ever happens cause it deliberately can't happen.

The whole scene where he fights his own self is just him admitting for once that he's not much different than Haruhi instead of the other S.O.S. brigade members, he wants to go back into a world where he and Haruhi can have fun and see unexplainable things happening; he isn't being rational or thinking of the better good, just admitting to himself he actually is quite like Haruhi, bored of reality and wanting it to be crazier than it really is.

and I don't think the movie wants us to side with Kyon, he gets stabbed the second he's back lol, but since it's a story it's mostly and a very light story at that, it doesn't want you to really think of every human there in the world but rather focus on, who would Kyon want to go with? Haruhi or Yuki, he chose Haruhi, against all logic he went with what his heart wanted.

it's all metaphorical cause the story aint stressing over the romantic relationships of anyone at all, thus it also doesn't want you to question about the result of his decisions for overall humanity.

Now as a personal response, I'd do the same as a teen but now as an adult wow is Kyon kind of a loser Haruhi was still in that world and just not as dangerous to be around now like dude she can still be annoying in this universe just as the last u don't gotta jeopardize humanity over an "I can fix her" school girl.
Sep 20, 2023 6:44 PM

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Sep 2023
215
Reply to Bactover
the whole movie is a very elongated love triangle.
the first two seasons works as to give us the reasons behind on everyone's motives for the movie, Kyon is very vocal about his displeasure with Haruhi but deep down he really enjoys her and by extension the Brigade's friendship.

Haruhi likes Kyon and wants to have fun, Yuki Likes kyon and is so dead tired of having to deal with Haruhi and the entities' will.

When given the option neither Haruhi or Yuki really have any care for other's opinion on any matter, Haruhi does it unintentionally as she doesn't know she can bend reality to her will, Yuki does intentionally but is unsure if her choosing is right thus gives Kyon the power to change her choice if need be.

When given into the options of if you should go back to a world where everything and anything can happen and reality constantly balances over the hubris of a teenage girl or one where nothing ever happens cause it deliberately can't happen.

The whole scene where he fights his own self is just him admitting for once that he's not much different than Haruhi instead of the other S.O.S. brigade members, he wants to go back into a world where he and Haruhi can have fun and see unexplainable things happening; he isn't being rational or thinking of the better good, just admitting to himself he actually is quite like Haruhi, bored of reality and wanting it to be crazier than it really is.

and I don't think the movie wants us to side with Kyon, he gets stabbed the second he's back lol, but since it's a story it's mostly and a very light story at that, it doesn't want you to really think of every human there in the world but rather focus on, who would Kyon want to go with? Haruhi or Yuki, he chose Haruhi, against all logic he went with what his heart wanted.

it's all metaphorical cause the story aint stressing over the romantic relationships of anyone at all, thus it also doesn't want you to question about the result of his decisions for overall humanity.

Now as a personal response, I'd do the same as a teen but now as an adult wow is Kyon kind of a loser Haruhi was still in that world and just not as dangerous to be around now like dude she can still be annoying in this universe just as the last u don't gotta jeopardize humanity over an "I can fix her" school girl.
@Bactover

Hey great first post and i totally agree about it all being metaphorical (wish i had thought of that word in my previous posts!). I'll have to think some more though about whether the movie wanted us to side with Kyon or not. Or probably i'd need to watch it again with that in mind. But you're right, we do view the world much differently as teenagers. Of course for a variety of reasons, hormones first & foremost, but also they tend to live more in the moment and yet at the same time think they're indestructible and will live forever (speaking in generalities of course).

But i think what i found initially jarring about Kyon's decision was that it struck me as so out of character for him, for he always came across as very level-headed and even-tempered and thoughtful (which was probably why the god-like Haruhi wanted to have him as part of her entourage since he provided a needed balance to her volatile nature). Yet i guess that was the whole point of the scene, showing him breaking free from arguably being too level-headed, too even-tempered, too thoughtful, and doing so in order to live the kind of life that deep down he really wanted to live.
Feb 24, 7:32 PM

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May 2009
1039
Old thread, but fascinating topic and fun discussion!

Chronon said:
The selfishness you're implying is based on the comparison between the world without "magics and stuff" and the world with them. But both worlds had separate principles and mechanisms. The inhabitants of them are completely different only having similar appearance and names. So by choosing which world he prefers, Kyon did not put anyone in danger. And if he is selfish, then Yuki is also selfish for altering the world.


@Chronon This is an interesting take, but I think the issue here is that it doesn't matter that the people in the OG universe and in the new universe are different people; sure, Kyon reverting back to the original universe means the people in the new universe aren't endangered because they cease to exist (assuming only one timeline or universe can exist), but the problem is that the 8 billion people from the OG universe who are now back in existence are endangered. As in, one road (presumably) has no risk of a temperamental teenager deciding their people's fates, and another road does have the risk, and Kyon chose the road with the risk. From this perspective, I think it's difficult not to compare the two options and to simply waive the one not chosen as irrelevant. (I think this was basically what @honyax was saying.)

I think Kyon was extremely selfish, and I agree that Yuki was as well. Many folks here have made the point that the movie is essentially about how and why Kyon and Yuki came about to making their selfish decisions. The bigger implied question here is: Were they justified? Or, to what degree were they justified? If we're using the safety and security of a very large number of people as the main metric here, Kyon's selfish decision would probably be not justified, and Yuki's would be justified. (But, assuming Chronon's premise is correct that the people in Universe A are entirely different from Universe B, if we consider that Yuki's decision did just wipe a bunch of people out of existence... well, that's another can of worms lol.)

Chronon said:
Finally, how you can be so sure this world is safer. It can be possible that all the catastrophes happened/happening in this world is because of some teenager's mood swing and The 'Agency' is keeping it hidden from us.


Can't be totally sure, so I agree that one should factor that in when faced with the decision of which universe to keep: One universe has an unknown possibility of risk + no espers and aliens etc., and the other has the certainty of risk (oxymoronic, I know) + espers and aliens etc.

Perhaps another factor to consider in whether Kyon's decision is justified or not is Kyon's confidence in keeping Haruhi in check, and it seems like he is pretty confident lol

A last little tangential thought is the parallels between this conundrum and the one in another franchise
AvalongusFeb 24, 7:38 PM
Feb 25, 1:41 AM

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May 2021
183
Avalongus said:
Old thread, but fascinating topic and fun discussion!

Chronon said:
The selfishness you're implying is based on the comparison between the world without "magics and stuff" and the world with them. But both worlds had separate principles and mechanisms. The inhabitants of them are completely different only having similar appearance and names. So by choosing which world he prefers, Kyon did not put anyone in danger. And if he is selfish, then Yuki is also selfish for altering the world.


@Chronon This is an interesting take, but I think the issue here is that it doesn't matter that the people in the OG universe and in the new universe are different people; sure, Kyon reverting back to the original universe means the people in the new universe aren't endangered because they cease to exist (assuming only one timeline or universe can exist), but the problem is that the 8 billion people from the OG universe who are now back in existence are endangered. As in, one road (presumably) has no risk of a temperamental teenager deciding their people's fates, and another road does have the risk, and Kyon chose the road with the risk. From this perspective, I think it's difficult not to compare the two options and to simply waive the one not chosen as irrelevant. (I think this was basically what @honyax was saying.)

I think Kyon was extremely selfish, and I agree that Yuki was as well. Many folks here have made the point that the movie is essentially about how and why Kyon and Yuki came about to making their selfish decisions. The bigger implied question here is: Were they justified? Or, to what degree were they justified? If we're using the safety and security of a very large number of people as the main metric here, Kyon's selfish decision would probably be not justified, and Yuki's would be justified. (But, assuming Chronon's premise is correct that the people in Universe A are entirely different from Universe B, if we consider that Yuki's decision did just wipe a bunch of people out of existence... well, that's another can of worms lol.)

Chronon said:
Finally, how you can be so sure this world is safer. It can be possible that all the catastrophes happened/happening in this world is because of some teenager's mood swing and The 'Agency' is keeping it hidden from us.


Can't be totally sure, so I agree that one should factor that in when faced with the decision of which universe to keep: One universe has an unknown possibility of risk + no espers and aliens etc., and the other has the certainty of risk (oxymoronic, I know) + espers and aliens etc.

Perhaps another factor to consider in whether Kyon's decision is justified or not is Kyon's confidence in keeping Haruhi in check, and it seems like he is pretty confident lol

A last little tangential thought is the parallels between this conundrum and the one in another franchise

yes thanku!
your thoughts are well put

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