Kanojo mo Kanojo Episode 9 Discussion

SkyhighCFC said:


1. Yes Naoya was attracted to Nagisa for her dedication (and her looks but that also applies to Milika), and yes Milika has been as dedicated if not more so than Nagisa. But here's the issue. You're right that Naoya didn't want to turn down Nagisa because he thought it would be a waste and that he didn't want to hurt her feelings...but that's literally how he feels about Milika as well? So you're not actually making a point here. He literally apologized to Milika because he knew rejecting her would hurt her feelings (and he's also fully aware that if he doesn't stay away he'd probably fall for her)...but guess what. If he accepted Milika's feelings he'd be hurting both Nagisa AND Saki and that would be a 100% certainty, unlike the Nagisa situation.

2. Again, please drop the absolutely moronic notion that he forced Saki into a 3-way relationship. How can it be him forcing her when she had a say in the matter? If Saki was firm enough, there's no chance he'd drop her just to date Nagisa. Let's not forget he also loves Saki, probably even more so than she loves him (don't forget that it was stated he asked her to date him every month for several years). The 1st episode was Naoya somehow convincing Saki to go along with his foolish idea of a 3-way relationship. Was he wrong to bring it up in the first place? Absolutely. But was he wrong because Saki accepted it? No. She had a choice. It's actually insulting to her character to suggest she was forced into anything.

"And no, Naoya is the one at fault for strongarming Saki into the situation by providing her with the implicit ultimatum of "accept two-timing or dump me""

Is this meant to be a joke? In no part of the 1st episode did he give her this ultimatum or even suggest or imply it like you claim.

"because he never gave her the opportunity to say "no". When she said "no" he refused to accept it"

Is Saki so weak that she can't say no to a stupid proposal? Of course not. Again, this is insulting to her character.

"When he knows full-well how weak to pressure Saki is and how much she's in love with him, how much choice she really has in this is basically none, as other characters will point out repeatedly"

At that point in the show Naoya was literally more in love with Saki than she was in love with him, so this is a non-point.

"You can't actually be blaming Saki for Naoya being a scumbag and forcing her into the situation of "let me date Nagisa if you want to continue dating me"."

I can and will blame Saki for accepting his proposal when she knew full well she wasn't okay with it. Her loving him doesn't mean she's forced to follow his every desire. With this kind of backward thinking, we'd be encouraging young girls to stay in toxic relationships all in the name of "love". She had a choice to say no, whether you want to admit it or not. Naoya is not in the wrong for trying to uphold a relationship she willingly agreed to enter.

FinalFlash18 said:

Bad in what sense exactly

FinalFlash18 said:

Bad in what sense exactly

MugenNoShirayuki said:


You're the one advocating toxic relationships, not me. You're giving Naoya a pass for his toxic behavior because Saki is too weak to stand up to him.

MugenNoShirayuki said:


Let's start with consistency and go from there. With Naoya's established character, there should be no reason not to accept Mirika. He fell in love with Nagisa instantly because he didn't want to reject her pure and honest feelings, and Mirika proved that she was just as strongly in love with him. So if Naoya is consistent, then he should have immediately accepted her, regardless of how Nagisa and Saki felt about it. After all, he refused to let Saki object and decided that he would force her to accept the situation; the same Naoya should do exactly the same thing here.

FinalFlash18 said:


Given how you've already entered into the discussion with someone else, I just want to give my two cents on the topic.

Firstly, those two cases you speak of are two different situations. Secondly, It's also a matter of Naoya's conviction.
He accepted Nagisa's confession coz he was moved by her dedication and looks AND that was the first time someone has confessed to him.
The reason he didn't agree to date Milika was due to his conviction and promise he made to those two girls, to make them happy. He was having hard time to keep them in check as his gfs, so that only reinforced his conviction.
Mind you that he has already said that he'll fall in love with Milika if she doesn't gives up. That's why the two girls were trying to keep him away from her. He's the same Naoya who fell for Nagisa and may also fall for Milika if not for his persistence and decision to date only two girls and to make them happy.

SkyhighCFC said:


I literally said he was wrong for suggesting the 3-way relationship, are you dumb? 😭

But I was not wrong in highlighting the fact she made the conscious decision to enter this 3-way relationship willingly despite the fact she wasn't okay with it. If we swap the genders around you'd be 100% calling the guy a pussy for going along with it (as would I).

The relationship itself isn't even toxic to begin with. Sure it's dysfunctional, but the characters involved all love each other and want to contribute positively to the relationship.

MugenNoShirayuki said:


It is toxic, and you'll see why in the coming episodes.

SkyhighCFC said:


Well I'm not a manga reader, so I wouldn't know. But if it does become a toxic relationship and it's on Naoya then shame on him. It's that simple. But for now, the only thing he's done wrong is hurt his original girlfriend by suggesting the idea of 2 timing her.

MugenNoShirayuki said:


That is a very large thing to do wrong.

SkyhighCFC said:


I mean...not really? You do realize that polyamorous relationships are a thing in real life right?

MugenNoShirayuki said:


Yes, they are. And the healthy ones don't tend to involve putting one of the parties into the situation of "you have to let me date this other person against your wishes or else we're breaking up." That is an example of a toxic polyamorous relationship, where one of the parties explicitly says they aren't okay with it and are then given an ultimatum and browbeaten into a relationship that they don't want out of fear of losing their lover.

Saki doesn't want her boyfriend to two-time her. If she could choose, she would have Naoya only love her. But she does not have that choice, so she has to tolerate the relationship, even though that's not what she wants out of her relationship with him. If the parties of a polyamorous relationship are not satisfied by the relationship, then it is a toxic relationship.

SkyhighCFC said:


...but Naoya never said or implied that if Saki didn't let him date Nagisa that they'd break up? 😭😭😭

Never gave her an ultimatum, never forced her to do anything, just insisted. I've repeated this about a thousand times but you just don't seem to understand that.

Now it's clear Saki doesn't like the idea of being in a polyamorous relationship. So why doesn't she just bring this up with Naoya instead of pretending to go along with it? I mean, the answer is obvious...If she did that this show would probably end and the point of the show is to be wacky and have characters make choices that don't make much sense to begin with. But if this was a real life scenario, it's the unhappy partner who needs to step up and actually say something. She's just sitting there and accepting crap that she doesn't need to.

MugenNoShirayuki said:


The ultimatum doesn't have to be explicit. Naoya asserts that he's in love with Nagisa and wants to date her. Saki says she does not want him to date Nagisa. What does Naoya do then? Does he accept her wishes? No, he keeps pushing on the issue until she gives in. Which makes it explicitly clear that "Naoya not dating Nagisa" is not an option.

Which reduced the number of potential outcomes to two:

1. Saki relents and lets Naoya also date Nagisa even though she doesn't like it, or

2. Saki dumps Naoya

There are no other options, because Naoya would not take Saki's no for an answer. An ultimatum does not have to be explicit to still be an ultimatum, there was only one choice Saki had to make, and that was between giving in and letting Naoya date someone else or breaking up with him.

"It's the unhappy partner who needs to step up and actually say something"

Saki DID say something. The minute the idea of two-timing was raised, Saki's kneejerk reaction was to say "no, I'm not okay with this, I don't want you to date somebody else". That is her stepping up and actually saying something. IN a healthy relationship where polyamory is raised as a possibility, when one of the parties says this, then that's the end of the topic. She expressed that she does not want Naoya to date other people, and that's all the objection she needs to raise. And what does Naoya do? He rejects her refusal and browbeats her into letting him have his way, showing a fundamental lack of respect for her discomfort with the situation. Saki has already voiced her objection and made it clear she did not want this relationship, Naoya is the one who ignored her discomfort and is now trying to "convince" her because he will not allow a situation where he is not dating both of them to exist.

Spoiler alert:

MugenNoShirayuki said:


Let's start with consistency and go from there. With Naoya's established character, there should be no reason not to accept Mirika. He fell in love with Nagisa instantly because he didn't want to reject her pure and honest feelings, and Mirika proved that she was just as strongly in love with him. So if Naoya is consistent, then he should have immediately accepted her, regardless of how Nagisa and Saki felt about it. After all, he refused to let Saki object and decided that he would force her to accept the situation; the same Naoya should do exactly the same thing here.