Should we root for the Empire of Ahb?

Jun 2, 2019 4:59 AM

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May 2018

2260

I watched series around 2011, so I don't remember all the details, but it always seemed to me that author was really trying to make Abh heroic, and most of normal humans, well, trash.

Not only that, Abh are made to be more beautiful, they live much longer, are smarter, etc...

They weren't necessarily evil cartoon moustache-twirling villains, but it definitely seemed that no one can stand up to them.

Oct 12, 2019 8:20 PM

#3

HHHHRRRRNNNGGG

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Feb 2019

50

I know the story of Seikai is about the rise of Lafiel and the relationship between her and Jinto, but should we actually think that the Empire of Ahb are the good guys, and they should win the war?

This is where you missed the point of the conflict portrayed in this series. There's no such thing as "good guy" or "bad guy", no matter how you look at it, both "sides" are not perfect in many ways, be it structure or moral, each has its own pros and cons, and, the most important thing about the war in SnS is to remind us that no matter what era, human will keep repeating the same misdeed and mistakes. (kinda like LoGH).

From my perspective, after rewatching the anime I came to the conclusion that the Ahb feudal structure is not only inferior to the other human nations, which are democratic, but also not something we should root for. So what you all think?

The Ahb is inferior how? Just because United Mankind is Democratic doesn't make it a better structure overall, AT LEAST, that's what has been depicted in the series (don't try to apply real-life logic into a work of fiction), from what Jinto's friend pointed out about how the people in their side constantly biting one another's ass to gain profit themselves, whereas the Ahb would just give no shit about it and put on a healthy straightforward rivalry instead of backstabbing each other.

Moreover, the Lobnas II act showed us that this so-called "Democratic" society isn't as nice as it sounds with the way the prisoners were treated as a whole and how they "managed" themselves specifically, and more frankly, this has been foreshadowed even way further back in the very beginning, how they propaganda stuff etc to put on a nice face, but in reality, the leaders are just a bunch of greedy, which is also what the Empress Ramaj da gawd saw right through at the very first meeting before declaring war, as she handed the Ls to all of the ambassadors for their petty excuses.

And lastly, while the Ahb seems like a pack of emotionless work slave, the end result is that it just works, they always produce the most efficient outcome, with little to no internal conflict etc, so, from the story's point of view, there's nothing really wrong with the way the Ahb worked, they went to war simply for clash of ideals, which has also been a major cause of countless conflicts in mankind's history.

If anything though, when you look at it again, despite having superior number and even better technology in every battle since Operation Phantom Flame, all United Mankind did was taking Ls, at least that's what the anime adapted, don't wanna dig up more into the novels but point is the Ahb did really well despite the initial "evil", and "flawed" portrayal they had in the premise. They kinda remind me of the Elf in LoTR and maybe Protoss from Starcraft (the latter is def odd but it happens).

And to address the final point, who we are rooting for is purely a matter of perspective, but frankly, the United Mankind has too little focus, and I don't even think there's a point in "picking side" in the first place, as the story is about Lafiel and Jinto's growth during a warring period, so yeah it's just that. But if I have to pick one, it'd definitely be Ahb since their society is much more interesting than the generic United Mankind (as for who's "right' or "wrong", I already explained above in the first paragraph so the deciding factor all boils down to which side is more compelling).

HHHHRRRRNNNGGGOct 12, 2019 8:24 PM

Oct 24, 2019 12:31 PM

#4

Mirania

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Jul 2012

7972

Guess it depends on what you deem a good empire. Its all bias imo.

Dec 8, 2019 12:23 AM

#5

Azazin

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Aug 2016

121

Psajdak said:
I watched series around 2011, so I don't remember all the details, but it always seemed to me that author was really trying to make Abh heroic, and most of normal humans, well, trash.

Not only that, Abh are made to be more beautiful, they live much longer, are smarter, etc...

Yep, that's also my impression.

FhurFc said:

This is where you missed the point of the conflict portrayed in this series. There's no such thing as "good guy" or "bad guy", no matter how you look at it, both "sides" are not perfect in many ways, be it structure or moral, each has its own pros and cons, and, the most important thing about the war in SnS is to remind us that no matter what era, human will keep repeating the same misdeed and mistakes. (kinda like LoGH).

I agree that each side is not perfect, but from the portrayal in the anime i had the feeling that the author not only had a lot of emphasis for the Ahb, but was also not so critical to them.

FhurFc said:

The Ahb is inferior how? Just because United Mankind is Democratic doesn't make it a better structure overall, AT LEAST, that's what has been depicted in the series (don't try to apply real-life logic into a work of fiction), from what Jinto's friend pointed out about how the people in their side constantly biting one another's ass to gain profit themselves, whereas the Ahb would just give no shit about it and put on a healthy straightforward rivalry instead of backstabbing each other.

Ok i applied real-life logic here, guilty of that, but i don't think that a non-democratic system is in any way better or superior compared to a democratic system. Even if the democratic system as portrayed by the UM was flawed. That does not mean, that in times of war the Ahb were not better organized. What i found interesting is that, even tho the Ahb know what democracy is, they ignore it or don't want it. It would be quite interesting to know if there were any discussions within the empire for change. I thought this was a little under complex.

FhurFc said:

And lastly, while the Ahb seems like a pack of emotionless work slave, the end result is that it just works, they always produce the most efficient outcome, with little to no internal conflict etc, so, from the story's point of view, there's nothing really wrong with the way the Ahb worked, they went to war simply for clash of ideals, which has also been a major cause of countless conflicts in mankind's history.

True. But i'am not sure if they always produce the most efficient outcome. We know that there were some rebellions in the past (not mentioned in the anime tho), but those were military conflicts between different admirals.

FhurFc said:

They kinda remind me of the Elf in LoTR and maybe Protoss from Starcraft (the latter is def odd but it happens).

Interesting comparison, i agree there are definitely some similarities.

FhurFc said:

And to address the final point, who we are rooting for is purely a matter of perspective, but frankly, the United Mankind has too little focus, and I don't even think there's a point in "picking side" in the first place, as the story is about Lafiel and Jinto's growth during a warring period, so yeah it's just that. But if I have to pick one, it'd definitely be Ahb since their society is much more interesting than the generic United Mankind (as for who's "right' or "wrong", I already explained above in the first paragraph so the deciding factor all boils down to which side is more compelling).

My question is more about the authors intention. Yes, its mostly about Lafiel and Jinto, but the author put a lot of effort in creating a new language for the Ahb (Baronh). Thats why i have the feeling that he didn't put a lot of effort to portray the human nations. While i also think the Ahb society is quite interesting, i don't like them much.

Ego = 1 / Knowledge | "More the Knowledge Lesser the Ego, Lesser the Knowledge More the Ego." Albert Einstein
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Feb 6, 2020 10:13 PM

#6

poiuytrewq

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Feb 2011

33

Azazin said:

My question is more about the authors intention. Yes, its mostly about Lafiel and Jinto, but the author put a lot of effort in creating a new language for the Ahb (Baronh). Thats why i have the feeling that he didn't put a lot of effort to portray the human nations. While i also think the Ahb society is quite interesting, i don't like them much.

Technically speaking the Ahb are still human so you've ironically fallen for the same irrational human bias the show protrays that you decry as being shallow but is actually pretty realistic. When you boil it down it is more of a question of is genetic engineering ok and I think it is even taking the the Ahb extreme and I'm both religious and fully support efforts to cure aging. Consider that banning genetic engineering even at its current stage in the real world would ban countless FDA approved gene therapies and basically kill any hope of curing cancer in general on that front alone the Ahb are the good guys as the opposite is billions of preventable deaths. Not to mention because the Ahb rely on genetic engineering to reproduce properly they would die out in a few generations if they were banned from further genetic engineering so it boils down to a fight against genocide which makes them by default the good guys as losing the war would be an threat to their very existance.

To improve human societies chances of lasting for the long term having much longer healthy lifespans and no aging related burdens on society without needing to resort to assisted dying as a bandaid solution to aging. Even if at first only a few would benefit eventually the technology would become widely aviable. Lots of religious people claim genetic engineering is like playing god but it really isn't as we've been manipulating evolution for pretty much all of human history given the rise of farming and technology in general. I think the world building is fine and the Ahb are ethically correct in the big problems.

Also realistically if humanity ever wants to travel in deep space extreme levels of genetic engineering will be required anyways so Ahb it is. Unlike most sci-fi this title included FTL is likely practically speaking impossible for all of time so generation ships and extreme stasis would be required but the timescales, extreme radiation, ... would make even a self repairing robot fail over time but a biological robot (Ahb type humans) made of cheap readily aviable carbon based compounds would be easy with just the right genetic engineering to survive a extremely long journey which then gets you to the origins of the Ahb being fairly realistic in origin. While the author didn't put much characterization into the enemies definitely did a good job on the world building side of things.

Sure you might not like their civilizations government style but that doesn't make them automatically bad. It is actually kinda meta that Ahb hate in the real world mimics the fictional humans groups it may be why people don't like it because they see themselves as being protrayed as the bad guys that require further characterization.

Jul 13, 2020 4:31 AM

#7

proxima16

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Apr 2019

18

Yeah, they're the bad guys, there's no question about it. I don't mind their feudal government or their being stronger/smarter/more beautiful via genetic engineering, that is fine with me, they have the freedom to do whatever they like. But so should everyone else. Ahb has no right to impose their rule on other planets who do not want to join them, that crosses the line for me. Worse, they have no use for the star systems they annexed, since they don't live on planets anyway, so why do it? There's no point for them to wage war against other human nations, it's pure naked aggression, and that makes them the bad guys no matter how you look at it.

Jul 31, 2020 8:35 PM

#8

dacis2

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Jul 2016

3

It depends. What do you consider bad?

Ideologically speaking the Abh want to control all of human space travel so that planetary scale genocide (like they did to their creators) can never occur again. The UM wants to turn all of humanity into being like themselves, which they view to be the moral pinnacle of what humanity should be. Both are lofty goals, how do they go about them?

If it's about freedom, then the Abh are more committed to maintaining personal freedoms than the UM. Planetary governments are allowed to continue ruling themselves however they want. There are no taxes levied on planetary populations, and there is no draft, though you can volunteer for imperial service if you like.Your culture and language can continue to exist. The only restriction is that you cannot build or own a starship (though you can rent one from the empire), and that you have no influence in broader imperial policy (unless you sign up for imperial service and rise through the ranks that way like the current prime minister who is a lander). The Abh only conquer pre-space planets, so your way of life need to change a single bit. They really just want to make sure that you don't cause trouble for the rest of the galaxy, and to put a refuelling station for their ships around your star.

When the UM conquer a previously independent Abh planet, they don't liberate it and restore its independence. So the issue of planetary sovereignty is moot either way. They also impose their own morals and laws on your planet, and assimilate it by outlawing the teaching of the previous language and culture, but they're not cruel so there's a waiver for everyone who was born speaking the language. Despite it being a democracy, it's not an American democracy but more like the democracy you'll find in Europe and in the rest of the world and personal liberty isn't valued quite as much. You can't change this because every other planet voted for this to be the way the UM does things. By the time it would take you to muster political will to change things, your planetary populace would probably have been assimilated.

If building and owning a starship or influencing broader policy by a one-man one-vote system is what you consider a core requirement, then yes, the Abh are the bad guys. If maintaining your way of life, your culture and language are more important to you, then the UM are the bad guys.

Or if you consider both to be bad, and you want to retain your independence, sorry this is a superpower conflict. You're either with us, or you're against us. This is the choice that is repeatedly offered to Jinto. He chooses the Abh because that's where all of his friends are and where his responsibility lies (protecting his homeworld), not because he necessarily agrees with their broader ideology (he frequently finds the Abh way of doing things alien and very alarming).

I believe this would be typically how most normal people would react when put in such a circumstance, and Jinto is supposed to be a normal person, not a grand revolutionary.

In terms of historical parallels I could see several, none of them directly WW2 related. Colonialism, where the European powers generally wouldn't consider lesser developed peoples as fellow sovereign states and did whatever they wanted. Also colonialism, the wiping out of local languages and customs in favour of what the coloniser considers superior. Superpower conflict and the helplessness of being small countries caught between two juggernauts.

Jun 11, 2021 5:28 PM

#9

ALMIGHTYCRICKET

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Jun 2021

1

Just finished rewatching this series. I realize this is a necro. I just wanted to make some points that seemed obvious to me.

1. The Ahb didn't start the war. There was a peace and because the collection of other human federations wanted more they attacked a vessel lied about it, trying to pin the blame on the ahb and failed to coerce the emperoress into believing their BS.

2. The Ahb are generally hated and treated as sub human because of their practices. In response to this they haven't forced anyone to see their view or tried to defend themselves, they simply let people believe what they want. After accepting a lander as nobility he isn't treated worse because of it, in fact it's Jinto's own people who turn on him.

3. Even when they do begin conquering planets and pushing forward in the war THAT THEY DIDN'T START, They don't take over. They simply ask obedience and let them govern themselves and abide by their laws.

4. Some have mentioned the forced genetics on noble children. No shit. If you are going to be a part of their power structure which relies on nobility being in the military and serving as diplomats and possible rulers of entire systems, they don't want to deal with rebellion. They have a system that works, and if Jinto was really not okay with it I imagine he could either defect or give up his title. It's never said that citizens of the empire have to have genetic children, only those part of the power structure.

5. In the last season for people that cared about Jinto, they made their agreement pretty targeted. Not only that for such a "evil empire" that contract basically said, you do you dont attack us and we'll leave you be. Those terms are fantastic for a planet.

Point being the Abh aren't out to conquer everyone and the people they have they don't interfere with beyond supplies and anti aggression. Some of you want to write them off as despotic gene editor space nazi's and I don't get it.

Feb 18, 6:22 PM

#10

Phanyx7

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Jun 2014

68

So many good answers in this topic — a rare thing, in my experience.

I've also never the seen the Abh protrayed as heroic. They engage in human genetic engineering, not only for curing diseases, but (specifically mentioned) to get the "better outcome". This is currently very polemical because it's hard to decide what's best and it ends up being subjective and often racist. I'm not arguing against or in favor of it, I'm just saying it's polemical. And that's the core of the Abh empire: they all have the same hair color and same expected behavior (with some variations).

You may say I'm trying to see a futuristic nation with our current eyes and therefore not being appliable, but that's not true. This is often criticized by the people of other alliances, so it's a viewpoint that's still relevant in their reality.

Why am I saying all this? Just to get to the point that...

HHHHRRRRNNNGGG said:
[...] while the Ahb seems like a pack of emotionless work slave, the end result is that it just works [...]

Yes, it works. The Abhs have been doing this for so many generations... And they have conquered half the known universe. They have coming to think themselves as superior. However, in Banner of the Stars 1 we can see the twins discussing as how the Abhs have not come to a conclusion if it's better using big starships instead of smaller ones, and their enemies tried to apply this tactic. They were not sure if they would win: a single wrong, conceptual, decision could change the tides of war. We can also see the discussion between Lafiel and Spoor in Lobnas II, both abiding by Abh's principles, unsure about the correct choice. Let's not forget Atosuryua, born as Abh, but quick to turn against the Empire. They Abh are definitely not perfect, and they are not as superior as individuals. The majority is just adequate for the way their society was built, making their empire more organized and focused than the others.

Then, they made the right calls until they had 50% of the known universe in their hands. And they did it by...

dacis2 said:
Planetary governments are allowed to continue ruling themselves however they want. There are no taxes levied on planetary populations, and there is no draft, though you can volunteer for imperial service if you like.

Indeed, by not interfering with the worlds' problems. It doesn't really matter how local things are, it just matter that it's in their zone of influence. In Lobnas II we see the Lafiel's efforts to save the local population are completely irregular. They don't care. And if you think about it, after the refugees left and the Count was saved, the planet was left to rot in the conflict between criminal factions.

This raises some complicated questions. Is this disengagement from the worlds' problems a bad thing? Or is it bad to intervene thinking you have solutions with your "superior culture"?

dacis2 said:
Colonialism, where the European powers generally wouldn't consider lesser developed peoples as fellow sovereign states and did whatever they wanted.

This. What's right in Lobnas II situation, however? It's hard to say.

I just disagree with this:

HHHHRRRRNNNGGG said:
[...] there's nothing really wrong with the way the Ahb worked, they went to war simply for clash of ideals [...]

I don't see ideals as the main conflict, like capitalism versus communism. I see as a matter of interests: one empire ruled half the universe, and some people wanted to rule it themselves. They made up any excuses to vilify their opponents, like dehumanizing the Abhs because of the genetic modifications.

And all of this to conclude: I don't think there's evil or good, the whole thing is about conflict of ambitions. The anime shows us many unfairness in (and caused by) the Abh empire; and the many of their imperfections. So, I don't know about you, but I'm not rooting for any faction.

__________________

The below comment in not connected with the rest of my argument, but just to reply to this:

ALMIGHTYCRICKET said:
Some of you want to write them off as despotic gene editor space nazi's and I don't get it.

Because the don't use genetic engineering in humans just to cure diseases. They have been made to be more disciplined. They also have a single hair color and are, allegedly, made to be "prettier". You could say it's a side effect of changing some genes, but that's not what me, and many others, got from this. They have defined what they consider a superior personality and a superior appearence, and replicated this to the whole population. I'm not saying they are nazis, that's not it. They don't even share the same government structure. I'm just trying to explain from where some comparisons were made.
__________________

I quoted only part of some user's comments, I suggest you read the original posts to understand their points of view, if you haven't yet. And congratulations if you have read this huge comment... In this specific topic... Of this old anime.

Phanyx7Feb 18, 6:40 PM

Feb 19, 1:04 AM

#11

dacis2

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Jul 2016

3

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