| Each series is stand alone, you can start with any series. The first serie and Cagliostro no Shiro are must watch, directed by Miyazaki and Takahata. They are timeless classic. Lupin III part V is really good if you want to start with something more recent then there is Mine Fujiko To Iu Onna with more mature vibes to it. |
Johnnyd3rpNov 4, 2018 1:50 PM
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| ye as they say you can watch any series of Lupin since they are all stand alone series |
| You can watch it in any order you want, but I'd say a good starting point is Castle of Cagliostro, since it introduces the characters and setting nicely, and since you were worried about length, it's a movie so it doesn't take long to watch. |
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| Yeah excluding Part 4, 5 and the Fujiko Mine spin-off you don't even have to start with the first episode of any individual entries. The whole franchise outside of those cases is entirely episodic, they often retcon back story or events, so it doesn't really matter. If you plan on watching the whole franchise you could just go airing order but if you aren't into the older entries I would at least say give part 2 a decent chance since it's pretty solid overall. The specials that aired yearly around the 90s are hit or miss but it's basically just a movie so you can take your pick from those. |
GamerDLMNov 4, 2018 1:59 PM
| If you only want to watch the modern ones then watch part 4 and 5, and the story of fujiko mine with its sequel movies. Can't comment on how good the first three seasons are but they're very old and it'll be an absolute trek to watch everything. I personally started with the story of fujiko mine and it was a little confusing. It serves as a prequal of sorts to the main storyline. You can understand the story but stylistically its very different. You should definitely watch it though if you do decide to step into the franchise, even if only for its sequal movies. |
skippedNov 5, 2018 7:04 AM
  whats a signature |
| How to watch Lupin III? You can watch it by your eyes izi |
| You can try to buy its collection eventually |
But he is a master of disguise you can miss him easily. |
| @Johnnyd3rp Miyazaki/Takahata didn't direct all of the episodes of Lupin Part 1. Episodes 1-6, 9 were directed by their predecessor Osumi TL;DR For the love of god do NOT start with Castle of Cagliostro. My 6 step watch order to prime new viewers to the cast, visual aesthetics and style of storytelling: 1- Lupin Part 1 (Episode 4) 2 - Lupin Part 1 (Episodes 5 & 7) 3 - Woman Named Fujiko Mine (Episodes 1&2) followed by Lupin Part 1 (episode 9) 4 - Lupin Part 2 (Episode 154) 5 - Lupin Part 2 (Episode 37) 6 - Mystery of Mamo (1st movie) *Explanations for these selections further down. For everyone else who doesn't mind reading large walls of text: @assyrian @Ericonator Yes, the Castle of Cagliostro is a great Ghibli film. In fact its just a great anime film period. But it is a horrible way to start the Lupin franchise. Castle of Cagliostro is a sequel film so it expects you to have a basic understanding of the main recurring cast members. Jigen and Zenigata are pretty obvious to understand through visual shorthand. Jigen being Lupin's partner, Zenigata his foil. Goemon and Fujiko Mine however, are introduced abruptly with no real explanation. Fujiko's conversation with another character does shed some insight to who she is later on, but it is misrepresentative to her depiction in most Lupin entries as lover/rival. Which brings me to my second point. Lupin in Cagliostro is not the same Lupin in any other incarnation. Neither is Fujiko. Goemon and Jigen are bastardized less but that's due to the miniscule involvement they have in the narrative as a whole. Miyazaki had an open disdain for Monkey Punch's Lupin. The apathy, whimsical care free attitude for violence, and his overall aesthetic offended Miyazaki. Lupin's change to a Fiat 500 although more endearing (even to myself) was only done so because Miyazaki didn't like that Lupin frequently drove Hitler's favorite car. Fujiko is less femme fatale and more female counterpart to Lupin. Again, not a bad thing considering the storybook fairy tale nature of the narrative presented, but again, this change was done only because of Miyazaki's disdain towards the constant sexualization of Fujiko's character. I wonder how he'd react to Misato from NGE or Faye from Bebop(a Fujiko tribute herself) who are both strong physically, socially and are unashamed of their sexuality? Toning down Fujiko's sexuality was also done in service to neuter Lupin's more lecherous qualities. He is the knight in shining armor who is both goofy and mature but the relationship between Lupin and Fujiko as a result is now strictly platonic. Miyazaki also added his justificarion for this drastic characterization change as it being a maturation from the Lupin who was savage as hell back in season 1, to someone who has learned from his fool hardiness. Lupin explains it himself to Jigen and without spoiling it, the heroine of this film had a part in changing Lupin for the better. I actually agree with Miyazaki's decision to make Lupin more altruistic as it adds a level of depth to his character that makes him both cruel and kind in equal measure, adding to his mysterious whimsical nature. Now knowing Lupin can be caring, it actually makes the moments where he resorts to violence and sometimes even murder, that much more cruel by comparison. That said, this maturation only matters once you compare it to the more gritter Lupin entries. If Cagliostro is the first film you watch, it means little to nothing as this revelation only comes via a very short flashback referencing behavior that was normal in season 1. Lupin's change arc is finished before the opening credits and if you've never seen any other Lupin entry than this one you will find his altrusitic nature as his baseline when nothing could be further from the truth. Finally the art direction and animation. Cagliostro as a result of using the same animators from the Red Jacket Telecom episodes share the same visual style. However, most episodes are not as pretty as the Telecom episodes with some looking like outright shit in comparison. Kazuhide Tomanaga added a level of bouncy fluidity to his animation and he became the Chief director of the Part 4 series as a result. If you start with Cagliostro you're only going to be more dissapointed later once you run out of Tomonaga episodes, and will miss out on a crap ton of less visually stunning but great heists and misadventures. Which brings us to where should you start with the franchise? Well I'm hoping that being a day late to the party doesn't mean I'm too late in changing your mind but here's how I've gotten people into Lupin. 1- Lupin Part 1 (Episode 4) It serves as a great introduction to the main cast minus Goemon while also establishing the threat of Zenigata early on. Its clever, and the plot gets you invested in Lupin and his crew much earlier. Also Fujiko is still cunning and selfish but is also shown a softer side that basically sums up her relationship with Lupin perfectly. 2 - Lupin Part 1 (Episodes 5 & 7) These are the introduction episodes to Goemon. It gets contradicted in a later OVA but to be honest the canon is played fast and loose anyway so it doesn't matter much. Not to mention I think he makes a better first impression here. 3 - Woman Named Fujiko Mine (Episodes 1&2) followed by Lupin Part 1 (episode 9) Yes, I'm telling you to skip around series' with drastically different art styles. But hear me out, if episodes 5 & 7 from step 2 were the best way to get introduced to Goemon, then step 3 is the best way to get introduced to the depth of Fujiko's character in just 3 short episodes. The Woman Named Fujiko Mine is a prequel spin off series that is set in an alternate universe but Lupin and Jigen's introduction to her is never overtly stated in the first season. Follow this step and Fujiko's callous attitude is given context, even if they conflict one another in the meta narrative. 4 - Lupin Part 2 (Episode 154) That's right, jump to the second to last episode. Not only is this not a Telecom episode, but by sheer virtue of being the result of the growing experience of the animators its definitely one of the better ones nonetheless. The plot this time around is over the top and insane and is a great introduction to the red iacket series in terms of tone and characterization. 5 - Lupin Part 2 (Episode 37) This is just a great episode in terms of action, suspense, multiple betrayals, and is one of the best depictions of the shaky team dynamic in the franchise. 6 - Mystery of Mamo (1st movie) As the first movie the characters are better introduced than they are in Cagliostro. The secondary cast is more involved. The villain more threatening. Zenigata more relentless. The relationship between Lupin and Fujiko more truer to the manga and the series as a whole. And it is by far my favorite entry in the franchise. In Japan this film was far better received than Cagliostro was and most of it is due in part to the director not being ashamed of the characters or story as a whole. Be prepared for a grittier, raunchier, more apathetic Lupin. The third act takes a left turn into the weird but I absolutely loved it while some people felt like it held the movie back from being good. Its rather polarizing in that regard bit I'd argue random genre/tonal shifts into the bizzare is actually par for the course in this series as a whole. The animation is constantly compared to Cagliostro's and while it features more usage of limited animation and less sakuga than the latter, it's not as if this film looks ugly. I'd argue that it is not only well animated, but the lankier character designs sell the visual comedy more in thos film as characters flail their limbs all over the place to comedic effect. Jigen and Goemon also look more sinister. Fujiko's sex appeal is put front and center. And Zenigata just looks more obsessed visually and his opening to the title card is probably one of the best ways to start a film, let alone any anime overall that sets hairs on my neck still after every rewatch. That said, this movie is more raunchier by comparison to the rest of the series and so don't expect Mamo level gratuitousness in later iterations outside the newest series' and movies. And that's it! From here on out the Lupin franchise is your oyster! Start wherever and with the rare exception skip around as much as you want! The Lupin franchise is largely episodic and despite the number of episodes the barrier of entry is extremely low. In fact, you can easily jump into season 4 upon watching these episodes and one movie as you are now primed towards the patterns of behavior between the main cast. You probably can start at season 4 but I think since the blue jacket series serves as a huge tribute to early entries from the franchise, you'd truly be missing out if you skipped out completely on the earlier iterations. Lupin the Third is one of my favorite anime series of all time so I hope I helped someone gain a better appreciation of the series from this rant. |
Somali_StrawhatNov 6, 2018 2:01 PM
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| Lupin Part 5 is good, but still need some context, especially for the final episode. Somali_Strawhat said: @Johnnyd3rp Miyazaki/Takahata didn't direct all of the episodes of Lupin Part 1. Episodes 1-6, 9 were directed by their predecessor Osumi TL;DR For the love of god do NOT start with Castle of Cagliostro. My 6 step watch order to prime new viewers to the cast, visual aesthetics and style of storytelling: 1- Lupin Part 1 (Episode 4) 2 - Lupin Part 1 (Episodes 5 & 7) 3 - Woman Named Fujiko Mine (Episodes 1&2) followed by Lupin Part 1 (episode 9) 4 - Lupin Part 2 (Episode 154) 5 - Lupin Part 2 (Episode 37) 6 - Mystery of Mamo (1st movie) With your permission, I will save those 6 steps for when friends asked me about Lupin. It helps a lot to atrack people to watch that legendary character. |
kofmasterNov 5, 2018 3:40 PM
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kofmaster said: Lupin Part 5 is good, but still need some context, especially for the final episode. Somali_Strawhat said: @Johnnyd3rp Miyazaki/Takahata didn't direct all of the episodes of Lupin Part 1. Episodes 1-6, 9 were directed by their predecessor Osumi TL;DR For the love of god do NOT start with Castle of Cagliostro. My 6 step watch order to prime new viewers to the cast, visual aesthetics and style of storytelling: 1- Lupin Part 1 (Episode 4) 2 - Lupin Part 1 (Episodes 5 & 7) 3 - Woman Named Fujiko Mine (Episodes 1&2) followed by Lupin Part 1 (episode 9) 4 - Lupin Part 2 (Episode 154) 5 - Lupin Part 2 (Episode 37) 6 - Mystery of Mamo (1st movie) With your permission, I will save those 6 steps for when friends asked me about Lupin. I'd he honored! Again, this is a series that seems daunting due to the number of episodes. But I really wished more people could get into this series as seasons 4 & 5 are pure gold that doesn't seem to be talked about as much due to the numerous sequels and movies. |
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| The great thing about Lupin is you can honestly watch any series and get straight into it. First one I watched was Woman called Fujiko Mine, followed by part 4, than part 1, some of the specials and movies, part 5 and now am watching part 3. It's a rare series that you can watch anything and still get into it. |
| “I just spent the last two years thinking that you guys knew more than me about life and I just found out that you guys are just as dumb as me.” “Duh-doy.” “Yeah, duh-doy.” |
| Well first you watch Lupin the 3rd TV 1, then you watch Lupin the 3rd TV 2 and so on in numerical order it's not that hard (the Fujiko series isn't that good and is skipable). The movies and specials are all stand alone so it doesn't matter when you watch them. |
| "The name's Gambit. Remember it." -Gambit "X-Men '97"  |
Kruszer said: Well first you watch Lupin the 3rd TV 1, then you watch Lupin the 3rd TV 2 and so on in numerical order it's not that hard (the Fujiko series isn't that good and is skipable). The movies and specials are all stand alone so it doesn't matter when you watch them. Most people don't want to sit through over 200 episodes of older animation to get to the newer material. Especially when the majority of which is episodic and can be watched in any order. Also, while Fujiko's spinoff series has a rather weak over-arching narrative that is resolved in just as weak a fashion due to the setups not being paid off in as cathartic a fashion as the early series seemd to suggest, I wouldn't say that because of that it is now as a whole entirely skippable. I'd attribute the weaker main narrative to Mari Okada's desire to explain Fujiko with this convoluted conspiracy that isn't really justified by the end. That said, I enjoyed her stand alone episodes very much. Its really just episodes 11-13 that are really meh. When you skip the spin off you miss out on Takeshi Koike's awesome animation and character designs that garnered enough praise to have him direct the 2 follow up movies, Shinichiro Watanabe's music production alongside a few scripts by Sato Dai(Wrote some of the zanier episodes of Bebop). Sato stated that when being mentored by Watanabe on writing scripts he constantly referenced the flow of a plot to being like the flow in a song. So Watanabe being on the musical end of things actually makes a lot of sense in context to jis involvement within the story. Saya Yamamoto's direction is great and the fantastic Theme Songs OP/ED are not only engaging but the ED in particular was done by the music composer behind Gundam Thunderbolt (if you don't know why that's awesome just look up Gundam Thunderbolt fight scene and close your eyes for a bit) . I'm shit at giving things ratings, especially with how obviously biased I am towards this franchise but I'd give this spin off series an 8 since the episodic adventures take up a majority of the series and are extremely enjoyable both on a visual and narrative level (I'd go as far as to say you really don't even need to watch past episode 9 if you only wanted those episodic adventures) Also the rated R elements are an added plus for me but I can certainly see why it might prevent others from enjoying it as Fujiko's sex appeal is definitely exploitative (interestingly enough this was a 1st in the franchise for having both a female director and series composer so the raunchiness of this entry is rather unique as a result) but again, I didn't mind all too much. |
Somali_StrawhatNov 5, 2018 4:51 PM
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Kruszer said: Well first you watch Lupin the 3rd TV 1, then you watch Lupin the 3rd TV 2 and so on in numerical order it's not that hard (the Fujiko series isn't that good and is skipable). The movies and specials are all stand alone so it doesn't matter when you watch them. That's not only a shitty answer, but completely wrong. Part 1 - 4 don't follow each other and can be watched completely out of order. It's not hard. |
| “I just spent the last two years thinking that you guys knew more than me about life and I just found out that you guys are just as dumb as me.” “Duh-doy.” “Yeah, duh-doy.” |
| It really doesn't matter. I'm watching the movies randomly while I slowly watch the TV series in airing order but I've introduced various people to the franchise with random movies and they all ended up liking it. I also know a lot of people who got into it with the recent TV series. Personally I was introduced to the franchise by random episodes on TV when I was a teen. There are some arguments for starting with specific movies but they mostly depend on personal preference. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| I think it's best to watch it from the very beginning. PS: "old animation" complaints are monstrously stupid and irrelevant. |
casual_filthNov 5, 2018 5:28 PM
| the original series is only 23 episodes long, if the art doesn't bother you, then might as well watch it at some point if you dont start from there |
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JokerVentura said: Kruszer said: Well first you watch Lupin the 3rd TV 1, then you watch Lupin the 3rd TV 2 and so on in numerical order it's not that hard (the Fujiko series isn't that good and is skipable). The movies and specials are all stand alone so it doesn't matter when you watch them. That's not only a shitty answer, but completely wrong. Part 1 - 4 don't follow each other and can be watched completely out of order. It's not hard. Whaterver, but I don't see any point in purposely watching them out of order when there's a clear numerical and chronological order even if you can, it's just needlessly complicating the matter. |
| "The name's Gambit. Remember it." -Gambit "X-Men '97" |
assyrian said: @Somali_Strawhat I wrote that post on a whim. The order you posted would most likely be better for new Lupin fans. Its not a Ghibli film, the studio was not founded until 1985 My post wasn't really meant to attack anyone but thats my fault if you interpreted it that way. Also thanks for the Ghibli correction. I constantly conflate Miyazaki/Takahata with Ghibli, especially Cagliostro considering how many animators from that film would later work on multiple Ghibli films. |
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Somali_Strawhat said: Kruszer said: Well first you watch Lupin the 3rd TV 1, then you watch Lupin the 3rd TV 2 and so on in numerical order it's not that hard (the Fujiko series isn't that good and is skipable). The movies and specials are all stand alone so it doesn't matter when you watch them. Most people don't want to sit through over 200 episodes of older animation to get to the newer material. Especially when the majority of which is episodic and can be watched in any order. Also, while Fujiko's spinoff series has a rather weak over-arching narrative that is resolved in just as weak a fashion due to the setups not being paid off in as cathartic a fashion as the early series seemd to suggest, I wouldn't say that because of that it is now as a whole entirely skippable. I'd attribute the weaker main narrative to Mari Okada's desire to explain Fujiko with this convoluted conspiracy that isn't really justified by the end. That said, I enjoyed her stand alone episodes very much. Its really just episodes 11-13 that are really meh. When you skip the spin off you miss out on Takeshi Koike's awesome animation and character designs that garnered enough praise to have him direct the 2 follow up movies, Shinichiro Watanabe's music production alongside a few scripts by Sato Dai(Wrote some of the zanier episodes of Bebop). Sato stated that when being mentored by Watanabe on writing scripts he constantly referenced the flow of a plot to being like the flow in a song. So Watanabe being on the musical end of things actually makes a lot of sense in context to jis involvement within the story. Saya Yamamoto's direction is great and the fantastic Theme Songs OP/ED are not only engaging but the ED in particular was done by the music composer behind Gundam Thunderbolt (if you don't know why that's awesome just look up Gundam Thunderbolt fight scene and close your eyes for a bit) . I'm shit at giving things ratings, especially with how obviously biased I am towards this franchise but I'd give this spin off series an 8 since the episodic adventures take up a majority of the series and are extremely enjoyable both on a visual and narrative level (I'd go as far as to say you really don't even need to watch past episode 9 if you only wanted those episodic adventures) Also the rated R elements are an added plus for me but I can certainly see why it might prevent others from enjoying it as Fujiko's sex appeal is definitely exploitative (interestingly enough this was a 1st in the franchise for having both a female director and series composer so the raunchiness of this entry is rather unique as a result) but again, I didn't mind all too much. Well to each his/her own I guess. I found it only passably entertaining at best, disappointing overall, and the art style in that one is in my opinion ugly. I don't even remember the music, but if it's the person who did Gundam Thunderbolt I can't say I'm much of a fan of Jazz but I do like certain songs for instance, the opening to Ghost Hound. |
| "The name's Gambit. Remember it." -Gambit "X-Men '97" |
Kruszer said: Well to each his/her own I guess. I found it only passably entertaining at best, disappointing overall, and the art style in that one is in my opinion ugly. I don't even remember the music, but if it's the person who did Gundam Thunderbolt I can't say I'm much of a fan of Jazz but I do like certain songs for instance, the opening to Ghost Hound. Definitely to each their own in regards to animation and art direction. Ghost Hound's opening is cool enough for me to try the series again. Thunderbolt also has some pop elements but I was definitely more a fan of the jazz. Again a matter to each their own lol |
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Kruszer said: JokerVentura said: That's not only a shitty answer, but completely wrong. Part 1 - 4 don't follow each other and can be watched completely out of order. It's not hard. Whaterver, but I don't see any point in purposely watching them out of order when there's a clear numerical and chronological order even if you can, it's just needlessly complicating the matter. Well for the following reasons. Part One has a bad first half, the first episodes were directed by Masaaki Oosumi and were much closer to Monkey Punch's manga, which was darker and kinda boring. So boring they fired him and brought in the Ghibli guys who changed a lot and made Lupin who we know and love today. Part Two is 155 episodes, something a Lupin fan will eventually watch, but a casual fan looking into Lupin is a lot less likely to invest that amount of time. Part Three is goofy Lupin and the arts a bit off, so could put off new viewers. Part Four being 24 episodes and polished Lupin makes it much easier for new fans to start with it and get invested in Lupin. |
JokerVenturaNov 6, 2018 12:51 AM
| “I just spent the last two years thinking that you guys knew more than me about life and I just found out that you guys are just as dumb as me.” “Duh-doy.” “Yeah, duh-doy.” |
JokerVentura said: Part One has a bad first half, the first episodes were directed by Masaaki Oosumi and were much closer to Monkey Punch's manga, which was darker and kinda boring. That's a matter of opinion. I enjoyed the darker bits of the Lupin franchise as a whole and especially Osumi's episodes. Also, considering the over the top plots that were presented I'd hardly consider them boring. Making an adaptation of someone's manga originally aimed for adults more kid friendly doesn't automatically make something good. JokerVentura said: So boring they fired him and brought in the Ghibli guys who changed a lot and made Lupin who we know and love today. And this is just completely false. Osumi WAS fired but not for making the series boring. The series would gain acclaim as a whole later upon reruns but the low ratings persisted well into Miyazaki/Takahata's involvement into the series. Lupin's creator(the third's not Leblanc's obviously) Monkey Punch didn't expect the weekly series to continue due to the adult content and macabre humor but its exactly those elements that gained such wide popularity to warrant an anime to begin with. The low ratings had nothing to do with Osumi and the production staff fired him in bad faith. When they made the series more goofy and Lupin more kid friendly the ratings continued to drop before finally the series was cancelled. The anime was just one of the first darker adult series and was poorly received initially because Lupin came out during a time when most of the anime being produced at that time was done so with kids in mind even if the appeal was appreciated across all ages. The series would have reruns later on that exposed the 1st season to a wider audience and would become much more popular as a result. Again, this has nothing to do with Miyazaki/Takahata's involvement. As much as I enjoyed the episodes that they worked on I'm almost positive that had Osumi been given the chance to continue directing the series, it still would have been canceled and would still experience the same resurgence later on in reruns. Also, while Miyazaki/Talahata's episodes are lighter than Osumi's they don't really relinquish the darker tone set by their predecessor completely either. Plenty of episodes feature Lupin as lecherous, or apathetic but the staff now just punished him more for it. There's no evidence to suggest that the later episodes were better recieved initially by audiences than Osumi's involvement. This becomes apparent by audiences initial reception and box office figures for Mystery of Mamo in comparison to Castle of Cagliostro. Many were out right furious at Miyazaki's depiction of the all ages slant of the titular character as opposed to the raunchier truer to manga version of the first film. Part of this probably has to do with feeling like a bait and switch considering how the two films were released only a year apart from one another and fans of the first film probably were blindsided by seeing the character they became accustomed to in Mamo become completely retooled in his sequel. Later, much like the 1st season audiences would love this entry but I feel like this due in part to how well Lupin's maturity is depicted in retrospect to watching him being a complete ass prior. Also, most of these changes were done out of spite and not out of an understanding of the character, or a desire to target the series for an all ages audience. Miyazaki just outright disliked Monkey Punch's depiction of Lupin and so many of the changes were done so out of a desire to fit his own tastes and weren't motivated out of a desire to improve the series at all. Yes, Miyazaki wanted Lupin to mature as a person but that desire came from a place of disdain towards the character even if the change does feel earned. In an earlier post I've stated how much I enjoy Castle of Cagliostro. Miyazaki definitely injected the qualities in Lupin that allowed him more depth and range of character traits but they only really worked due to those elements already existing in the character to begin with, even if they were greatly overshadowed by the darker characterization. Much like early American superhero comic book characters who have evolved over time Lupin changed not because his initial interpretation was boring or sucked but because of censorship/corporate oversight and the desire to sell more to a wider audience. It's why Bruce Wayne isn't a pulpy chain smoking socialite who murders people without remorse anymore. Legacy characters evolve to fit the cultural climate in which they take place in. Does every fan of Batman need to read his 1st appearance in Detective comics? No. But I wouldn't say that those issues suck or were boring because they were darker in tone than the silver age stuff. That'd be insulting to the people who created the legend to begin with. I'm glad that Lupin was given more heroic traits but I don't think that the pulpier stuff were ever a detriment to the franchise as the manga would retain those elements and gained even more popularity over time. Lupin Part 2 would rapidly and randomly change in tone between pulpy and all ages prior to the release of Cagliostro and was better received initially than the first season suggesting the only hiccup stemmed from not enough people giving the first series a chance. Osumi would later direct the Lupin TV special Voyage to Danger that is reminiscent in tone to his involvement earlier on, and you only need to look at how many top Lupin specials/movies list include the Island of Assasins to know that Lupin isn't a boring character in one of his darkest depictions. In conclusion, the Miyazaki episodes are lighter and goofier in tone but still have some darker/irreverent elements that were there in the Osumi episodes. Osumi wasn't fired for being boring and the series was cancelled even when Miyazaki/Talahata were given creative control. As much as I enjoyed Miyazaki/Takahata's involvement it isn't the sole reason to what made the series popular at all. It's true that the earlier stuff was darker, and there's nothing wrong in believing that made it boring. But being boring had nothing to do with the low ratings that got Osumi fired, and just like how darker content doesn't necessarily translate to better content, the same could be said for content geared for all ages. |
Somali_StrawhatNov 6, 2018 9:03 AM
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Somali_Strawhat said: JokerVentura said: Part One has a bad first half, the first episodes were directed by Masaaki Oosumi and were much closer to Monkey Punch's manga, which was darker and kinda boring. That's a matter of opinion. I enjoyed the darker bits of the Lupin franchise as a whole and especially Osumi's episodes. Also, considering the over the top plots that were presented I'd hardly consider them boring. Making an adaptation of someone's manga originally aimed for adults more kid friendly doesn't automatically make something good. JokerVentura said: So boring they fired him and brought in the Ghibli guys who changed a lot and made Lupin who we know and love today. And this is just completely false. Osumi WAS fired but not for making the series boring. The series would gain acclaim as a whole later upon reruns but the low ratings persisted well into Miyazaki/Takahata's involvement into the series. Lupin's creator(the third's not Leblanc's obviously) Monkey Punch didn't expect the weekly series to continue due to the adult content and macabre humor but its exactly those elements that gained such wide popularity to warrant an anime to begin with. The low ratings had nothing to do with Osumi and the production staff fired him in bad faith. When they made the series more goofy and Lupin more kid friendly the ratings continued to drop before finally the series was cancelled. The anime was just one of the first darker adult series and was poorly received initially because Lupin came out during a time when most of the anime being produced at that time was done so with kids in mind even if the appeal was appreciated across all ages. The series would have reruns later on that exposed the 1st season to a wider audience and would become much more popular as a result. Again, this has nothing to do with Miyazaki/Takahata's involvement. As much as I enjoyed the episodes that they worked on I'm almost positive that had Osumi been given the chance to continue directing the series, it still would have been canceled and would still experience the same resurgence later on in reruns. Also, while Miyazaki/Talahata's episodes are lighter than Osumi's they don't really relinquish the darker tone set by their predecessor completely either. Plenty of episodes feature Lupin as lecherous, or apathetic but the staff now just punished him more for it. There's no evidence to suggest that the later episodes were better recieved initially by audiences than Osumi's involvement. This becomes apparent by audiences initial reception and box office figures for Mystery of Mamo in comparison to Castle of Cagliostro. Many were out right furious at Miyazaki's depiction of the all ages slant of the titular character as opposed to the raunchier truer to manga version of the first film. Part of this probably has to do with feeling like a bait and switch considering how the two films were released only a year apart from one another and fans of the first film probably were blindsided by seeing the character they became accustomed to in Mamo become completely retooled in his sequel. Later, much like the 1st season audiences would love this entry but I feel like this due in part to how well Lupin's maturity is depicted in retrospect to watching him being a complete ass prior. Also, most of these changes were done out of spite and not out of an understanding of the character, or a desire to target the series for an all ages audience. Miyazaki just outright disliked Monkey Punch's depiction of Lupin and so many of the changes were done so out of a desire to fit his own tastes and weren't motivated out of a desire to improve the series at all. Yes, Miyazaki wanted Lupin to mature as a person but that desire came from a place of disdain towards the character even if the change does feel earned. In an earlier post I've stated how much I enjoy Castle of Cagliostro. Miyazaki definitely injected the qualities in Lupin that allowed him more depth and range of character traits but they only really worked due to those elements already existing in the character to begin with, even if they were greatly overshadowed by the darker characterization. Much like early American superhero comic book characters who have evolved over time Lupin changed not because his initial interpretation was boring or sucked but because of censorship/corporate oversight and the desire to sell more to a wider audience. It's why Bruce Wayne isn't a pulpy chain smoking socialite who murders people without remorse anymore. Legacy characters evolve to fit the cultural climate in which they take place in. Does every fan of Batman need to read his 1st appearance in Detective comics? No. But I wouldn't say that those issues suck or were boring because they were darker in tone than the silver age stuff. That'd be insulting to the people who created the legend to begin with. I'm glad that Lupin was given more heroic traits but I don't think that the pulpier stuff were ever a detriment to the franchise as the manga would retain those elements and gained even more popularity over time. Lupin Part 2 would rapidly and randomly change in tone between pulpy and all ages prior to the release of Cagliostro and was better received initially than the first season suggesting the only hiccup stemmed from not enough people giving the first series a chance. Osumi would later direct the Lupin TV special Voyage to Danger that is reminiscent in tone to his involvement earlier on, and you only need to look at how many top Lupin specials/movies list include the Island of Assasins to know that Lupin isn't a boring character in one of his darkest depictions. In conclusion, the Miyazaki episodes are lighter and goofier in tone but still have some darker/irreverent elements that were there in the Osumi episodes. Osumi wasn't fired for being boring and the series was cancelled even when Miyazaki/Talahata were given creative control. As much as I enjoyed Miyazaki/Takahata's involvement it isn't the sole reason to what made the series popular at all. It's true that the earlier stuff was darker, and there's nothing wrong in believing that made it boring. But being boring had nothing to do with the low ratings that got Osumi fired, and just like how darker content doesn't necessarily translate to better content, the same could be said for content geared for all ages. I can't speak to how the original manga went, but I'll explain why I believe Miyazaki/Tahata's involvement Improved Lupin. In Osumi's episodes Lupin is a thief who is rarely seen actually stealing anything, he's portrayed more of as an assassin and Goemon's rival for top assassin title. Also Goemon was portrayed not only as an ahole assassin, but a womaniser. Fujiko is just a bond girl whose sole purpose is to get stripped or screw Lupin over and Jigen is just there... When they took over, yes it still had some darkness and took over a lighter tone. But Fujiko become more of a rival with a better dynamic, Goemon joined the team and was more of the zen like swordsman who distanced himself from women and Jigen developed a personality. The best example of this for me would be episode 17 - "Lupin, Caught in a Trap" where Lupin turns the tables on Fujiko and Goemon is shown not to be played like Lupin and Jigen. You can't deny that the personalities of the characters changed quite a bit when the director changed. #MyOpinion - If it didn't change, I don't think they would still be making Lupin |
| “I just spent the last two years thinking that you guys knew more than me about life and I just found out that you guys are just as dumb as me.” “Duh-doy.” “Yeah, duh-doy.” |
| @JokerVentura I continued our debate on your profile if you don't mind continuing. I think the topic is extremely interesting but much of my response delves into spoiler territory and would feel antithetical to the theme of this thread of how to recommend new fans of Lupin to the franchise as a whole. |
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| Moved from Anime Discussion |
| Does anyone know about the manga vs anime? Apparently the manga is pretty old but finished (according to wikipedia). Lupin anime has tons of different series. Are the later ones anime original? Or was the anime just pretty slow at adapting and all anime seasons are trying to fully adapt (without original stuff and without omitting stuff) the manga? |
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