Nobunaga the Fool Episode 21 Discussion

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Jan 2014

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jfs said:

AlexTheRiot said:

jfs said:

Well i must say that saying that Ichi supported caesar doesnt fit.. i mean before this ep the last time they met was in ep 14 and she was telling him to go off and help her bro, shes not done anything to support him, even this ep she was mostly trying to stop him or argue with him

You're right, I worded it that way cause it was an easy tie in to what I was getting at. I should say she realized that he was someone that COULD accept her support and love regardless of circumstances, in the way that Mitsu couldn't. I think that's why she was able to end up reciprocating his feelings so quickly, even if she hadn't accepted those feelings yet.

It wouldve been interesting to see them survive until the last episode to see how their relationship would be like, there arent enough moments we see between them, imo she fell for him because she realized that he will love her no matter what , even if he was brainwashed for arthur,only his love for her remained and in the end it was the strength of that love that allowed arthur to manipulate him, and she knew it

i would really like to see how a day in their ( both in love) married life would be like

xchee said:
Caesar and Ichi are dead but to be honest, I felt nothing. There wasn't enough interaction between them to actually make me say "wow they're in love." No amount of "I'm now a good guy" act by Caesar will erase his scumbaggery with killing Nobu and Ichi's father and backstabbing Shingen. And while his declaration of love in the final moments was "okay," how did they even arrive to that?

1. Threaten Nobu with annihilation if he doesn't give Ichi.
2. Give chocolate cake.
3. ???
4. Declaration of love.

I just feel so sorry for Ichi she got caught up in all of this :/

1. when did he do that? he asked for regalias at first, besides they can just go back to war
2. +make her smile and praises her beauty
3. wedding night sex? (guessing hes pretty good)+ betray king for her
4. he declared his love for her since ep 14, last ep his declaration was made even in his brainwashed arthur worshipping state

Why feel sorry for her? Ichi was the happiest girl in the show at the end

Also how is it scumbaggery to kill someone in a war (and as i kept saying shingen was dead anyway)

Only scum thing caesar did was lying to takeda about how shingen died, but he redeemed himself several times over

I just wanna ask When did they had "wedding night sex"? I didn't see that and i don't think anyone here saw it, they had a poor development as a couple, so it wasn't that tragic when they died. I just want to see the blondie and Nobu together in the end, for there we do have some development as a possible couple.

pulamidorieJun 1, 2014 11:58 PM

Jun 2, 2014 12:06 AM

#54

ReaperCreeper

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The twins looked like they were being controlled too.

Jun 2, 2014 12:26 AM

#55

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pulamidorie said:

I just wanna ask When did they had "wedding night sex"? I didn't see that and i don't think anyone here saw it, they had a poor development as a couple, so it wasn't that tragic when they died. I just want to see the blondie and Nobu together in the end, for there we do have some development as a possible couple.

They sleep in the same room, what do you think they did in the rest of the night? eat choco cake?
If they didnt do anything caesar couldve just been given one line 'dont worry i wont do anything you wont like' or whatever.. but they left it open (probably because otakus will rage if they know she isnt a V anymore)

And ep 17 caesar pretty much confirmed it.. 'i want to describe the softness of my womans skin for 1000 nights' or something like that, if they didnt he couldve just swapped 'softness' for beauty or something else but no..

Its left open to intepretation but its quite clear to me

jfsJun 2, 2014 12:31 AM

Jun 2, 2014 12:35 AM

#56

Blind_Guardian

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I concur with BaiHu27 ... Ceasar was a piece of shit who totally didn't deserve Ichihime. He killed Nobu's dad, murdered Shingen and then blackmailed Nobu into letting him marry his sister. Supposedly he has a 'change of heart' but then has one conversation with Mr Glowy-Face Arthur and he's a brainwashed bad guy again. I'm glad he's dead, was kinda sad Ichihime had to die with him though. Still, she made her bed, she deserved to die in it. Just sad that Mitsu had to see it happen, and watch her crawl towards him in death. Typical ... the best guy gets friendzoned and the dumb bitch dies because she chose the pretty-boy asshole.

I didn't really have any problem with the Imps, but with the body count this series has already racked up, it was about time we saw them get the axe.

Next episode Mitsu goes full Akuma mode and hopefully blows away some bad guys. I don't think he'll turn on Nobu again; his actions in the combat this episode proved to both him and Jeanne that he's no Destroyer-King and he can be trusted.

Only 3 episodes left ... can't wait to see the climax!

Blind_GuardianJun 2, 2014 12:39 AM

Jun 2, 2014 12:42 AM

#57

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Blind_Guardian said:
I concur with BaiHu27 ... Ceasar was a piece of shit who totally didn't deserve Ichihime. He killed Nobu's dad, murdered Shingen and then blackmailed Nobu into letting him marry his sister. Supposedly he has a 'change of heart' but then has one conversation with Mr Glowy-Face Arthur and he's a brainwashed bad guy again. I'm glad he's dead, was kinda sad Ichihime had to die with him though. Still, she made her bed, she deserved to die in it. Just sad that Mitsu had to see it happen, and watch her crawl towards him in death. Typical ... the best guy gets friendzoned and the dumb bitch dies because she chose the asshole.

I didn't really have any problem with the Imps, but with the body count this series has already racked up, it was about time we saw them get the axe.

Next episode Mitsu goes full Akuma mode and hopefully blows away some bad guys. I don't think he'll turn on Nobu again; his actions in the combat this episode proved to both him and Jeanne that he's no Destroyer-King and he can be trusted.

Only 3 episodes left ... can't wait to see the climax!

I really love how some people keep mentioning caesar killing nobus dad as a reason to hate him, when even Nobu and Ichi has clearly forgotten it (not to mention shingen was a dead man anyway), not to mention he saved the oda clan, nobu multiple times, and also saved mitsus ass...

He didnt have a 'change of heart' he was controlled and manipulated by arthur, nobu made it clear at the end, and even in his brainwashed state he was still trying to protect his true love desperately

And i gota love how all these haters seem to 'forget' mitsu killed her innocent brother and hid it and lied to both nobu and ichi to the end, your hate is clearly showing...

and mitsu wasnt friendzoned, she liked him at first, but eventually found her true love at the end and she was happy, first love winning rarely happens in real life and realistic fiction

Mitsu best boy? lmao.... he is the biggest hypocrite, he had no problems killing nobukatsu to protect the clan, but when nobu seemingly wants to kill caesar (and ichi) to stop him destroying the oda castle, he goes NOOOOO STOOOP THATS MY ICHIIIII..

please..

AAAH the scene where Ichi calls out her love's name while crawling desperately to him right in front of Mitsu, best scene of the episode

jfsJun 2, 2014 12:58 AM

Jun 2, 2014 7:07 AM

#58

ma_ko

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Noo, why they have to end it like that. At first I hated Caesar but as the time was passing I started liking him and now this... Mitsu is a faggot IMO, couldn't fight for his love. 3 episodes more, can't wait...

Jun 2, 2014 8:30 AM

#59

xSanox

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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

http://hestia.dance/

Jun 2, 2014 8:39 AM

#60

Vodkas

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Time and time again, Jean proves how worthless she really is. It's a shame Caeser died, he was by far one of the better characters. Mitsu also proved he's still a piece of shit.

Jun 2, 2014 8:53 AM

#61

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jfs said:

pulamidorie said:

I just wanna ask When did they had "wedding night sex"? I didn't see that and i don't think anyone here saw it, they had a poor development as a couple, so it wasn't that tragic when they died. I just want to see the blondie and Nobu together in the end, for there we do have some development as a possible couple.

They sleep in the same room, what do you think they did in the rest of the night? eat choco cake?
If they didnt do anything caesar couldve just been given one line 'dont worry i wont do anything you wont like' or whatever.. but they left it open (probably because otakus will rage if they know she isnt a V anymore)

And ep 17 caesar pretty much confirmed it.. 'i want to describe the softness of my womans skin for 1000 nights' or something like that, if they didnt he couldve just swapped 'softness' for beauty or something else but no..

Its left open to intepretation but its quite clear to me

As you said it's left to interpretation,but i really doubt they did something, those were her chambers, as those 2 lil minions said to the twins, if they wanted to show something they would have shown more, so it could be clear for all and not left to interpretations, and the thing with him "describing her skin",(the softness of a skin can be described not only by making sex, it was enough to just touch her) and maybe he did that to annoy the ones who were there (including Mitsu) ?Also if you rewatch the episode 14 again,you'll see that when Caesar first approaches her she wants to cover her body more,you can see how she use the hand for it, and that's not how a bed looks like after a night of sex. And of course it seemed Caesar loved her deeply so i really doubt he would've forced on her right after she got there.
But anyway they are both dead so i'm more than happy, they were so annoying, both of them, "the alpha male" and the "I'll sacrifice myself, a.k.a drama queen".

pulamidorieJun 2, 2014 9:03 AM

Jun 2, 2014 9:04 AM

#62

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pulamidorie said:

jfs said:

pulamidorie said:

Its left open to intepretation but its quite clear to me

As you said it's left to interpretation,but i really doubt they did something, those were her chambers, as those 2 lil minions said to the twins, if they wanted to show something they would have shown more, so it could be clear for all and not left to interpretations, and the thing with him "describing her skin",(the softness of a skin can be described not only by making sex, it was enough to just touch her) and maybe he did that to annoy the ones who were there (including Mitsu) ? And of course sa it seemed Caesar loved her deeply so i really doubt he would've forced on her right after she got there.
But anyway they are both dead so i'm more than happy, they were to annoying, both of them, "the alpha male" and the "I'll sacrifice myself, a.k.a drama queen".

Its 'their' room... caesar has his own pic there and the next day the table he communicated with kenshin with is in the same room... think what you want but they definitely slept in the same bed/room that night

Im pretty sure if you just touched someone briefly it wont be enough to describe it for '1000 nights' but as i said think what you want.. and i doubt he forced her, after all they are husband and wife and she had clearly prepared herself for it, the choco cake works just fine to calm her nerves and make her more accomodating, after all she was really stiff and cold at the start .. Its exactly because he is an alpha male he wouldnt pass up the opportunity to 'tap that' unlike mitsu...

Like i said, showing it clearly will make too many otakus rage, like how people did in valvrape, its more trouble than its worth, but enough hints are there

jfsJun 2, 2014 9:08 AM

Jun 2, 2014 9:05 AM

#63

BaiHu27

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Jun 2014

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Geez, its an all out shipping war here. I may have started something pretty bad... *whistles and walks away slowly*

Jun 2, 2014 9:13 AM

#64

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Jan 2014

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Well as i said,left to interpretation, and it doesn't matter since they're DEAD.
Also Take a better look, for that's not the same room. Just saying. + the fact that i don't see any of his picture when he was talking with Kenshin nor when he was talking with Ichi.
But well i'm gonna stop here mate,no need to go over this again and again,each one have their own opinions. Cheers

pulamidorieJun 2, 2014 9:18 AM

Jun 2, 2014 9:17 AM

#65

CreamZi

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They died together at least. Last words gave me some goosebumps.

Jun 2, 2014 9:20 AM

#66

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Well i wasnt the one who started arguing whether they did or not (which they quite clearly did and i merely pointed that out)

Jun 2, 2014 9:27 AM

#67

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jfs said:
Well i wasnt the one who started arguing whether they did or not (which they quite clearly did and i merely pointed that out)

I wasn't arguing over anything that was just me debating something mate, and it's clear that we both think different. Leave it @ that, there's no reason to go further for something like that lol...

Jun 2, 2014 9:42 AM

#68

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May 2014

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Be in denial all you want...., they slept in the same room, thats a fact, the same table where he talked to kenshin in ep 14 is the same as the one in her room in ep 14/17 and even the position of the windows/pillars/floor/wall/chair is the same... they are husband/wife, what makes you think they slept in different rooms?

Well if it doesnt matter to you you shouldnt have bothered to 'debate' it with me in the first place, but i agree, leave it at that

jfsJun 2, 2014 9:51 AM

Jun 2, 2014 11:42 AM

#69

RosyXkid

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jfs said:

RosyXkid said:
I died inside when I saw Caeser die T ^ T
My ship died .....
It was so unexpected the fact that the twins betrayed Caeser and stabbed him and Ichihime
They way Caeser faught back and slashed the other twins was justice
Sad to see my couple end like that ...
I hate Nobu for hurting Caeser
So much death .... I am so sad
Atleast the lovers died together ,true love.

At least The ship sailed before they died, they were about to kiss there

It was unexpected, since most fandom expected brutus to be responsible if caesar dies, but it was a nice diversion trick to make their deaths even more surprising...

Nobu freed caesar from arthurs mind rape, he knew from the start caesar was being manipulated, and at the end he seemed genuiniely happy for ichi and caesar there, ofc that didnt last long..

Well i guess caesar x ichi can pass off as a shakesperean tragedy (maybe the plot is a little thin but whatever) i mean girl falls for guy who kills her father and they ended up dying tragically together stuff

next week seems like it will feature both their funerals...

But I am glad Nobu save Caeser from brainwash
It was still sad but yes the ship did sail
I wasn't going for Mitsubishi and Ichi
But I am glad Ichi said she was happy with Caeser
Take that Mitsu......

Jun 2, 2014 11:58 AM

#70

BaiHu27

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Jun 2014

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Oh well, they're dead, who cares, moving on. Just want Nobunaga to hand Arthur a massive smackdown. That guy's way too arrogant and cocky.

Jun 2, 2014 12:37 PM

#71

Esheraz

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Great episode, R.I.P Ichihime and Caeser :c

Jun 2, 2014 12:44 PM

#72

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What an ep... Even though I didn't think this would happen, I was still afraid it would. I'm just glad that Caesar & Ichi died together though I would have much preferred them to have both survived... They will be sorely missed as they were the main and pretty much only reason I was watching this series.

Jun 2, 2014 1:33 PM

#73

Farabeuf

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Felt too forced to be honest. There wasn't another way to make Caesar break the spell Arthur had on him? RIP Ichihime.

"Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii

There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov

Jun 2, 2014 1:45 PM

#74

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RosyXkid said:

But I am glad Nobu save Caeser from brainwash
It was still sad but yes the ship did sail
I wasn't going for Mitsubishi and Ichi
But I am glad Ichi said she was happy with Caeser
Take that Mitsu......

Honestly though, if you were a caesar x ichi shipper, this was the ending that has the most chance, them both surviving happily, though i thought was possible, was always going to be hard considering the theme in this show.. but i REALLY believed that caesar had plot armor until we see brutus again.. so it was quite a shock...

Yep Mitsu ichi is just no... there is zero chemistry between them, the cake scene was the only time in the series ichi became a normal girl and reacted/acted like one

Yes, she actually said 'shiawase', and a more accurate translation would be more like 'Nobuniisama, Ichi was happy' or something like that.. shiawase (happiness) is usually a strong word to describe very strong feelings, its different from 'normal' happy or joy, but more like true blissfull happiness, so yeah...

Remember after mitsu pushed her away in ep 9 she used shiawase too.. something like 'father.. nobuniisama is a happy person.. but i on the other hand...' implying she did not have a happy life to that point, but in the end, after meeting the person who would love her no matter what, she can finally say those words 'i was happy' it was a nice touch

You can tell she was already in love with him at the start of the ep (or since ep 18) the way she reacted when she saw his changes at the start of the ep (her eyes were shaking) implies that she already had strong feelings for him, but when she confronted him and he preached about his equal love BS she was hurt and apalled and said 'the caesar dono that i knew (for a few days) no longer exists' and cries, but then during his fight against nobu he slipped that the only reason he agreed to help arthurs plan was because in the end he just wanted to save her, and she realized at that point, that brainwashed or not, that he will always love her, so that returned all the feelings she had for him, and made her fall for him deeper despite his attempts to destroy her homeland (which was all because he thought in his madness that it was to protect her), so yeah they both found their 'true' happiness in the end, which is a better end that i can imagine compared to how the rest of the cast (like mitsu) will get

For caesar, he found a woman with whom spending time with was enough to bring true happiness, and he knew she loved him back at the end, for Ichi, she was finally free of her duties to her clan and all the savior/destroyer king business, she found a man she loved who would put her above all else (even the entire world itself), can you say the same for other relationships in the series? even nobu and jeanne didnt have enough depth to it

Its sad though because if they had survived they wouldve been the most loving couple

My only real disappointment is that caesar and ichi never had enough relationship developments, in caesars dying flashback his memories with her was a little.... lacking

jfsJun 2, 2014 1:54 PM

Jun 2, 2014 1:54 PM

#75

Aggron

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Fucking twins showed up out of no where >.> Poor Ichihime and I thought Caesar's death would of been in a bigger moment than that...

Jun 2, 2014 3:41 PM

#76

AlexTheRiot

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Blind_Guardian said:
Still, she made her bed, she deserved to die in it. Just sad that Mitsu had to see it happen, and watch her crawl towards him in death. Typical ... the best guy gets friendzoned and the dumb bitch dies because she chose the pretty-boy asshole.

I think you're forgetting that Mitsu pretty much rejected her back in episode 9 because he couldn't risk his honor to Nobu. Not sure how you got that he was friendzoned. I'm also curious as to what bed you think she made for herself that she deserved to die in, when everything she did was for Nobu and the Oda clan.

I'm a Mitsu fan myself and from the early episodes the thing I most anticipated was how their relationship would play out, but I seem to be the only Mitsu fan looking at this with a level head. Put down your rage glasses people, you're missing the show.

Jun 2, 2014 3:44 PM

#77

BaiHu27

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AlexTheRiot said:

Blind_Guardian said:
Still, she made her bed, she deserved to die in it. Just sad that Mitsu had to see it happen, and watch her crawl towards him in death. Typical ... the best guy gets friendzoned and the dumb bitch dies because she chose the pretty-boy asshole.

I think you're forgetting that Mitsu pretty much rejected her back in episode 9 because he couldn't risk his honor to Nobu. Not sure how you got that he was friendzoned. I'm also curious as to what bed you think she made for herself that she deserved to die in, when everything she did was for Nobu and the Oda clan.

I'm a Mitsu fan myself and from the early episodes the thing I most anticipated was how their relationship would play out, but I seem to be the only Mitsu fan looking at this with a level head. Put down your rage glasses people, you're missing the show.

I think its best for us to forget the whole relationship debate. Its not going anywhere now that its settled. Do you think Mitsuhide will betray Nobunaga based on the preview?

Jun 2, 2014 4:20 PM

#78

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AlexTheRiot said:

Blind_Guardian said:
Still, she made her bed, she deserved to die in it. Just sad that Mitsu had to see it happen, and watch her crawl towards him in death. Typical ... the best guy gets friendzoned and the dumb bitch dies because she chose the pretty-boy asshole.

I think you're forgetting that Mitsu pretty much rejected her back in episode 9 because he couldn't risk his honor to Nobu. Not sure how you got that he was friendzoned. I'm also curious as to what bed you think she made for herself that she deserved to die in, when everything she did was for Nobu and the Oda clan.

I'm a Mitsu fan myself and from the early episodes the thing I most anticipated was how their relationship would play out, but I seem to be the only Mitsu fan looking at this with a level head. Put down your rage glasses people, you're missing the show.

Oh wow i can swear i thought you just dont care about either of them lol

But imo Mitsu pushed her away cause he felt guilty about killing her brother and lying about it to nobu and her, i think she knows no matter what, Mitsu will always put his duty and his father's and the akechi clan thing above her

That i agree Ichi is a girl who will put her duty and clan above everything else, in a sense, it is fitting she ended up loving a man who puts her above anything else including his duty and his loyalties, and in the end as you said, she was finally free of her chains and was able to love said person..

Ichi liking mitsu though, i never bought it, it always seems a little forced.. i mean after 8 episodes she never shown anything but platonic interest in him and all of a sudden she throws herself at him?

jfsJun 2, 2014 4:25 PM

Jun 2, 2014 4:40 PM

#79

Kazataro

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So I guess Mitsuhide will take Caesars sword? Excalibur was it, shit gonna get real now.

Jun 2, 2014 4:48 PM

#80

neonBdragon

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This episode was so horribly sad we lost Ichi in this episode.

Great episode!!!!

Jun 2, 2014 4:53 PM

#81

Hannah_Ana

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*speechless* 5/5

Jun 2, 2014 5:07 PM

#82

kaimax

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Putting the "debate" aside...
Poor Machiavelli...Getting killed off screen is worse than this debate. lol

Visit this blog That I'm working with my friend
http://randomnessthing.com/

Jun 2, 2014 5:58 PM

#83

AlexTheRiot

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jfs said:

Oh wow i can swear i thought you just dont care about either of them lol

But imo Mitsu pushed her away cause he felt guilty about killing her brother and lying about it to nobu and her, i think she knows no matter what, Mitsu will always put his duty and his father's and the akechi clan thing above her

lol nah that's why I kept trying to bait you in some threads ;)

That's definitely a big factor in him pushing her away, and to me it kinda falls into the same category.

Mitsu's Honor to Nobu:
>Be Nobu's shadow, acting secretly for his best interest
>Take all the burden of your own inner workings
>>kill Nobukatsu
>>torture yourself with guilt, but bear the burden alone because it's your role
>>can't let Ichi be your light because doing so would mean letting her in completely and she shouldn't have to handle your burden because it's your role

He probably also thought that even if she could forgive him(I think she definitely would have) she couldn't handle the burden of knowing the underhanded work he had to do. That was his biggest mistake, which kills me because that was exactly what she was looking to do. All she wanted was to comfort and support him so that he could continue working for Nobu's best interest without 'withering away' from the burden of it all. It's all very sad lol.

Jun 2, 2014 6:21 PM

#84

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May 2014

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AlexTheRiot said:

lol nah that's why I kept trying to bait you in some threads ;)

That's definitely a big factor in him pushing her away, and to me it kinda falls into the same category.

Mitsu's Honor to Nobu:
>Be Nobu's shadow, acting secretly for his best interest
>Take all the burden of your own inner workings
>>kill Nobukatsu
>>torture yourself with guilt, but bear the burden alone because it's your role
>>can't let Ichi be your light because doing so would mean letting her in completely and she shouldn't have to handle your burden because it's your role

He probably also thought that even if she could forgive him(I think she definitely would have) she couldn't handle the burden of knowing the underhanded work he had to do. That was his biggest mistake, which kills me because that was exactly what she was looking to do. All she wanted was to comfort and support him so that he could continue working for Nobu's best interest without 'withering away' from the burden of it all. It's all very sad lol.

Oh well lol..

I agree she would probably forgive him, her character song speaks of 2 people- 1 person who 'no matter how many sins is commited the feelings will be like flowers' or whatever, and a second person who 'gazes at her so honestly' and whose 'figure i want to watch as it changes' , that first chara song really gave away ichis state of mind as of ep 18, she will basically never forget her affections for mitsu, but now she has fallen in love with caesar and wants to be honest with her feelings and not have anymore regrets, that, she 'wants to welcome warmly the name of the flower that has bloomed in her heart, which that person (caesar obviously) will call love' and i think you can see from the start of last ep that she already has very strong feelings for him, too bad it was cut short...

also the way the chara song was worded, the first half about mitsu and the 2nd caesar, the first part speaks of 'strong feelings' and stuff like that, but the 2nd (caesar) was the only one who used the word Love right at the end (the line says"the person will call it (the name of the flower that has bloomed in her heart) love") so IMO she had strong affections for mitsu, but the only one she truly fell in love with was caesar, and i think you can see that in the end when in her last moments, she was only thinking of one man

Well idk about that.. remember ep 17 and 19, that caesar said EVERYTHING mitsu does is about his father/akechi clan, and that includes his loyalty to nobu, so him supporting nobu is motivated by his father, and so is killing nobukatsu by extension, not simply because he worships nobu from his heart like she did

in the end of the day, she chose caesar because even knowing that mitsu loved her too, she knows only one of them loves her more than his duty, his loyalties, and basically anything else in the world, while mitsu will never be able to make that choice, thats the difference between caesar and mitsu: One treasures her enough to sacrifice everything for her, the other doesnt, and once again, its not loyalty to nobu that motivates him: its his father/clan that he puts above all else

Doesnt hurt that caesar is more handsome, strong, suave and knows how to treat a lady (comes with experience i guess), you have to remember that caesar had alot more to lose more than mitsu, he basically made an enemy out of an entire planet for her sake, he was willing to lose his home, his rank and basically everything he built just for a chance at earning her affections

jfsJun 2, 2014 6:29 PM

Jun 2, 2014 6:44 PM

#85

shakeyourpup45

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There is something wrong with that Arthur man! He must be Macbeth! Caesar was a love puppet in and out. It's Gundam 00 all over again!

CESARE YOU WILL PAY FOR THIS!

Jun 2, 2014 8:00 PM

#86

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May 2014

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jfs said:

AlexTheRiot said:

lol nah that's why I kept trying to bait you in some threads ;)

That's definitely a big factor in him pushing her away, and to me it kinda falls into the same category.

Mitsu's Honor to Nobu:
>Be Nobu's shadow, acting secretly for his best interest
>Take all the burden of your own inner workings
>>kill Nobukatsu
>>torture yourself with guilt, but bear the burden alone because it's your role
>>can't let Ichi be your light because doing so would mean letting her in completely and she shouldn't have to handle your burden because it's your role

He probably also thought that even if she could forgive him(I think she definitely would have) she couldn't handle the burden of knowing the underhanded work he had to do. That was his biggest mistake, which kills me because that was exactly what she was looking to do. All she wanted was to comfort and support him so that he could continue working for Nobu's best interest without 'withering away' from the burden of it all. It's all very sad lol.

Oh well lol..

I agree she would probably forgive him, her character song speaks of 2 people- 1 person who 'no matter how many sins is commited the feelings will be like flowers' or whatever, and a second person who 'gazes at her so honestly' and whose 'figure i want to watch as it changes' , that first chara song really gave away ichis state of mind as of ep 18, she will basically never forget her affections for mitsu, but now she has fallen in love with caesar and wants to be honest with her feelings and not have anymore regrets, that, she 'wants to welcome warmly the name of the flower that has bloomed in her heart, which that person (caesar obviously) will call love' and i think you can see from the start of last ep that she already has very strong feelings for him, too bad it was cut short...

also the way the chara song was worded, the first half about mitsu and the 2nd caesar, the first part speaks of 'strong feelings' and stuff like that, but the 2nd (caesar) was the only one who used the word Love right at the end (the line says"the person will call it (the name of the flower that has bloomed in her heart) love") so IMO she had strong affections for mitsu, but the only one she truly fell in love with was caesar, and i think you can see that in the end when in her last moments, she was only thinking of one man

Well idk about that.. remember ep 17 and 19, that caesar said EVERYTHING mitsu does is about his father/akechi clan, and that includes his loyalty to nobu, so him supporting nobu is motivated by his father, and so is killing nobukatsu by extension, not simply because he worships nobu from his heart like she did

in the end of the day, she chose caesar because even knowing that mitsu loved her too, she knows only one of them loves her more than his duty, his loyalties, and basically anything else in the world, while mitsu will never be able to make that choice, thats the difference between caesar and mitsu: One treasures her enough to sacrifice everything for her, the other doesnt, and once again, its not loyalty to nobu that motivates him: its his father/clan that he puts above all else

Doesnt hurt that caesar is more handsome, strong, suave and knows how to treat a lady (comes with experience i guess), you have to remember that caesar had alot more to lose more than mitsu, he basically made an enemy out of an entire planet for her sake, he was willing to lose his home, his rank and basically everything he built just for a chance at earning her affections

This ^ And that's why I love Caesar as he would do anything for Ichi no matter what he would lose. The love they had for each other was so beautiful and I wished they would have shown more as I agree that whole flashback was shallow...

Jun 2, 2014 11:01 PM

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NiteBloomingRose said:

This ^ And that's why I love Caesar as he would do anything for Ichi no matter what he would lose. The love they had for each other was so beautiful and I wished they would have shown more as I agree that whole flashback was shallow...

Well, yeah, some people might think caesars love for her was shallow too since he only got to know her unlike mitsu, but make no mistake, their love is real (whether it makes sense or not is another story)

When Ichi slapped caesar after she was mad about his equal love crap she was angry and said 'the caesar i know no longer exists' since everything about him seems to be completely different.. but then she found out the only reason he believed in arthurs plan is because he thought it was the only way to save HER, she is the only one he wants to save.. that sums it up really: she realized that no matter what they did to brainwash or change him, only one thing about him remains unchanged: his love for her, the moment she realized that she stopped being angry and fell in love with him (again) and lets not forget he was trying to destroy her home

When Nobu frees caesar, its even more obvious, when he called her name, she said 'we finally meet again', her eyes was tearing up and her voice shaking with happiness,and when he grasped her hand, she returned it without hesitating and brought her face closer (clearly going to kiss) but the bastard cesare had to interrupt their proper reunion...

I still dont know how i feel about this.. cesare caused their deaths but it would be better than had one of them died (or worse if caesar died alone and she goes back with mitsu) ... either way though, i hope cesare dies a most agonizing death, seems like women like machiavelli is good enough for him

Poor Nobu though, anyone else noticed he seemed really happy when first caesar declared he loved his sister and second when they were finally reunited.. it seemed like he was pleased that his sister found her happiness and now has someone who he knows truly loves her

jfsJun 2, 2014 11:06 PM

Jun 3, 2014 12:07 AM

#88

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jfs said:

That is true. But well, this is Nobunaga the Fool, it's a series that is a whirlwind and you just roll with it. Caesar's love for her makes more sense than some other things...

Yeah, that's when she fell back in love with him alright. That spoke a lot since he was trying to destroy her home.

That "finally" really spoke that she wanted to see him again a lot. That scene was so sweet till Cesare.... >.< There was no doubt then that she loved him.

Well, I'm not the most happy for sure, but just happy that it wasn't just Caesar dying (him dying alone and she going to Mitsu would have been the worse) or Ichi. I'm sure if Ichi died first, I'm sure Caesar would have followed suit soon anyways. With how Caesar loved her, he probably would have thrown himself into battle and got killed. This way they are at least together. But I do feel they went out of their way to kill them off. Seriously so many things could have happened to prevent it. Caesar and Ichi not getting out of Quo Vadis... Nobu getting out too and blocking the spear... The ninja girls taking out Nel (don't they have great skills to get to places quick?)... And exactly how strong is that girl to be able to spear 3 people? It was just too perfect of a set up imo.

I hope Cesare Borgia dies an agonizing death too, he really deserves it. Didn't he kill Machiavelli? Looks like she was with that blood. Ah, well, don't care.

Yeah, poor Nobu, this ep made my liking of him go up. I'm really rooting for him now. He did seem quite happy when Caesar declared that and they were reunited. I believe that is the reason too. *sigh* Seriously why did they have to die so quickly? T.T

Jun 3, 2014 12:19 AM

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NiteBloomingRose said:

jfs said:

That is true. But well, this is Nobunaga the Fool, it's a series that is a whirlwind and you just roll with it. Caesar's love for her makes more sense than some other things...

Yeah, that's when she fell back in love with him alright. That spoke a lot since he was trying to destroy her home.

That "finally" really spoke that she wanted to see him again a lot. That scene was so sweet till Cesare.... >.< There was no doubt then that she loved him.

Well, I'm not the most happy for sure, but just happy that it wasn't just Caesar dying (him dying alone and she going to Mitsu would have been the worse) or Ichi. I'm sure if Ichi died first, I'm sure Caesar would have followed suit soon anyways. With how Caesar loved her, he probably would have thrown himself into battle and got killed. This way they are at least together. But I do feel they went out of their way to kill them off. Seriously so many things could have happened to prevent it. Caesar and Ichi not getting out of Quo Vadis... Nobu getting out too and blocking the spear... The ninja girls taking out Nel (don't they have great skills to get to places quick?)... And exactly how strong is that girl to be able to spear 3 people? It was just too perfect of a set up imo.

I hope Cesare Borgia dies an agonizing death too, he really deserves it. Didn't he kill Machiavelli? Looks like she was with that blood. Ah, well, don't care.

Yeah, poor Nobu, this ep made my liking of him go up. I'm really rooting for him now. He did seem quite happy when Caesar declared that and they were reunited. I believe that is the reason too. *sigh* Seriously why did they have to die so quickly? T.T

When she said 'finally' she was talking about the real caesar obviously, who is the one in ep 14 basically.. when she thought that person 'no longer existed' it was enough to make her cry, so yeah she was already in love with him

Machiavelli had 'death by sex' written all of her... which is quite disgusting, she was ugly and twisted, suits cesare really...

Yeah well its obvious caesar and ichi died to set the last 3 episodes up (including mitsus betrayal or not)...their deaths is definitely plot-driven... IMO though based on the preview it seems arthur will influence mitsu, as i said last week, this will probably happen through excalibur whose last owner just happened to die last episode, which seems to be how arthur is manipulating caesar...

I said last week Ichi would bring caesar back and he would throw away excalibur, but it happened by his death instead... sigh.. i was so sad because i was sooo sure caesar had impenetrable plot armor until at least brutus reappears, while Ichi had narrator plot armor.. but i guess i was wrong

Jun 3, 2014 12:46 AM

#90

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jfs said:

When she said 'finally' she was talking about the real caesar obviously, who is the one in ep 14 basically.. when she thought that person 'no longer existed' it was enough to make her cry, so yeah she was already in love with him

Machiavelli had 'death by sex' written all of her... which is quite disgusting, she was ugly and twisted, suits cesare really...

Yeah well its obvious caesar and ichi died to set the last 3 episodes up (including mitsus betrayal or not)...their deaths is definitely plot-driven... IMO though based on the preview it seems arthur will influence mitsu, as i said last week, this will probably happen through excalibur whose last owner just happened to die last episode, which seems to be how arthur is manipulating caesar...

I said last week Ichi would bring caesar back and he would throw away excalibur, but it happened by his death instead... sigh.. i was so sad because i was sooo sure caesar had impenetrable plot armor until at least brutus reappears, while Ichi had narrator plot armor.. but i guess i was wrong

Exactly. And I do believe there was some scene between ep 14 and ep 15 between them that we didn't see. I think there's a lot of things in this we didn't see...

I thought that how it was... It suited her, but to actually do it... But yeah, suits Cesare's way. I think he's one of the truest ones to his historical counterpart (betrayal, backstabbing, and sex) most likely. LOL

Obviously. A lot of this series seems plot drive down to Jeanne's entire character. Not to mention Ichi suddenly throwing herself at Mitsu. I mean I can get why Mitsu likes her; beautiful princess, so of course, but there was nothing to suggest Ichi liking him till then. And I can name a whole slew of things, which makes things forced. When a character dies and I'm counting a bunch of realistic ways for them to live and them dying is one of the most unrealistic outcome... yeah... Most likely that will happen with Mitsu. He will probably get his hands on Caesar's regalia. Hey, he may try to pilot Caesar's giant war armour. The monkey showed it's not hard to just take one. Caesar just left him a bunch of resources really. And that's probably why Caesar died.

You were right; just the not about how... Me too! Seriously Brutus was just a distraction? Or literally forgotten. I can't tell with this show... Oh, yeah, they killed the narrator! Seriously what series has done that?

Jun 3, 2014 1:10 AM

#91

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NiteBloomingRose said:

jfs said:

You were right; just the not about how... Me too! Seriously Brutus was just a distraction? Or literally forgotten. I can't tell with this show... Oh, yeah, they killed the narrator! Seriously what series has done that?

Well yeah EVERYONE was like 'brutus will totally backstab caesar' or 'there is only one reason brutus is in the show!' but it turns out it was all just a misdirection to make his death even more of a shock...

IDK i hope mitsu doesnt pilot quo vadis.. he can keep the sword though, quo vadis should rest with its owner

BTW what are those jewels besides Ichis flower in the final shot of their hands together? is it caesars stuff/regalia but im sure he didnt have any until now, or is it ichis accessory?

BTW now that Ichi/caesar romantic subplot is gone, seems like it will be saru/himiko as the endgame romance subplot..

Im looking forward to next episode tbh, it has caesar/ichis funeral held together and i think we will see something like himiko saying how cruel it was that they died so soon after realizing their love, and how saru or someone says 'at least they died happily without any regrets' , and the Ichi/caesar love story might make himiko realize that its futile to chase nobu who clearly has eyes for jeanne but instead look at the other person (saru) instead, i somehow get the feeling that the tragedy in this ep will drive the saru/himiko ship

Jun 3, 2014 1:45 AM

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jfs said:

Well yeah EVERYONE was like 'brutus will totally backstab caesar' or 'there is only one reason brutus is in the show!' but it turns out it was all just a misdirection to make his death even more of a shock...

IDK i hope mitsu doesnt pilot quo vadis.. he can keep the sword though, quo vadis should rest with its owner

BTW what are those jewels besides Ichis flower in the final shot of their hands together? is it caesars stuff/regalia but im sure he didnt have any until now, or is it ichis accessory?

BTW now that Ichi/caesar romantic subplot is gone, seems like it will be saru/himiko as the endgame romance subplot..

Im looking forward to next episode tbh, it has caesar/ichis funeral held together and i think we will see something like himiko saying how cruel it was that they died so soon after realizing their love, and how saru or someone says 'at least they died happily without any regrets' , and the Ichi/caesar love story might make himiko realize that its futile to chase nobu who clearly has eyes for jeanne but instead look at the other person (saru) instead, i somehow get the feeling that the tragedy in this ep will drive the saru/himiko ship

Indeed, we all were. Guess so...

I hope so about Quo Vadis, but I wouldn't put it past Mitsu to try.

Well, I figured it was Caesar's regalia... but I don't recognize it. One looks like the typical regalia. Kenshin had one all along that was never seen till ep 19, so Caesar can too. But I don't know about the other one. Seriously what is that?

Yeah, it does and tbh I don't care about that. I like Himiko (not fave chara worthy or anything though) and I don't like the monkey, but I agree they'll do that.

I am too with the funeral as I'm sure people will be talking about it. Maybe get some flashbacks of them and such. That will probably happen, but yeah, like I said, I don't care. XD

Jun 3, 2014 1:46 AM

#93

Bodomschild

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I think those jewels were Caesar's regalia, about the funeral though I wonder if they are going to be cremated and buried together. Since they are husband and wife, don't know much about japanese funeral traditions.

Jun 3, 2014 1:50 AM

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Bodomschild said:
I think those jewels were Caesar's regalia, about the funeral though I wonder if they are going to be cremated and buried together. Since they are husband and wife, don't know much about japanese funeral traditions.

That's what I guess too, but one looks odd. Well, Excalibur is a sword, so why not? That's what I wonder too about how the funeral will be.

Jun 3, 2014 2:09 AM

#95

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NiteBloomingRose said:

Bodomschild said:
I think those jewels were Caesar's regalia, about the funeral though I wonder if they are going to be cremated and buried together. Since they are husband and wife, don't know much about japanese funeral traditions.

That's what I guess too, but one looks odd. Well, Excalibur is a sword, so why not? That's what I wonder too about how the funeral will be.

Episode will likely open with their funerals, i think they were cremated, the bowl with the owari symbol is probably for ichi's ashes

I just realized that when caesar was talking about perfecta, the screen snaps to himiko, what if himiko is what they need for the perfecta (someone who overcomes death), and the one that mitsu tries to snipe next episode (at instigation by arthur through excalibur) is himiko (which would be a nice surprise) and once she lives Mitsu will kidnap her and bring her to arthur, setting up a battle between hideyoshi with his robot powers and mitsu with excalibur, it would make sense for himiko to get kidnapped and saru to go nuts at mitsu, then saru will rescue himiko and their romance will blossom.. or am i thinking too much?

So endgame might be something like:

Nobu + jeanne vs arthur to save the world
Hideyoshi vs Mitsu for love
Kenshin vs alexander for twisted psycho love
Brutus vs cesare for revenge
Himiko ship vs magellan ship for customary battleship battles in mecha anime

But im sure himiko/saru relationship will be the focus of the final 3 episodes, they didnt build them up for nothing...

Still i would do anything to see caesar/ichi survive and make it home, and then have this really awkward conversation..

Nobu: so caesar, i get that you were brainwashed, but how did arthur do it? alexander said he appeared as a man resembling god... is this true?

Caesar: thats, umm weeeeeeeeeell, he appeared to me as this reeeeeeaaeeaally beautiful woman, then she cried and pleaded for me to lend her my power, so i.......

Nobu: why you piece of....

Ichi: caeeeeeasaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrdonoooooo (+ yandere face)

caesar: buuut buuuuuut she even used my hands to wipe her tears!

Ichi: die caesar (Ichi stabs him with a knife)

jfsJun 3, 2014 2:29 AM

Jun 3, 2014 2:38 AM

#96

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jfs said:

NiteBloomingRose said:

Bodomschild said:
I think those jewels were Caesar's regalia, about the funeral though I wonder if they are going to be cremated and buried together. Since they are husband and wife, don't know much about japanese funeral traditions.

That's what I guess too, but one looks odd. Well, Excalibur is a sword, so why not? That's what I wonder too about how the funeral will be.

Episode will likely open with their funerals, i think they were cremated, the bowl with the owari symbol is probably for ichi's ashes

I just realized that when caesar was talking about perfecta, the screen snaps to himiko, what if himiko is what they need for the perfecta (someone who overcomes death), and the one that mitsu tries to snipe next episode (at instigation by arthur through excalibur) is himiko (which would be a nice surprise) and once she lives Mitsu will kidnap her and bring her to arthur, setting up a battle between hideyoshi with his robot powers and mitsu with excalibur, it would make sense for himiko to get kidnapped and saru to go nuts at mitsu, then saru will rescue himiko and their romance will blossom.. or am i thinking too much?

So endgame might be something like:

Nobu + jeanne vs arthur to save the world
Hideyoshi vs Mitsu for love
Kenshin vs alexander for twisted psycho love
Brutus vs cesare for revenge
Himiko ship vs magellan ship for customary battleship battles in mecha anime

But im sure himiko/saru relationship will be the focus of the final 3 episodes, they didnt build them up for nothing...

Still i would do anything to see caesar/ichi survive and make it home, and then have this really awkward conversation..

Nobu: so caesar, i get that you were brainwashed, but how did arthur do it? alexander said he appeared as a man resembling god... is this true?

Caesar: thats, umm weeeeeeeeeell, he appeared to me as this reeeeeeaaeeaally beautiful woman, then she cried and pleaded for me to lend her my power, so i.......

Nobu: why you piece of....

Ichi: caeeeeeasaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrdonoooooo (+ yandere face)

caesar: buuut buuuuuut she even used my hands to wipe her tears!

Ichi: die caesar (Ichi stabs him with a knife)

Hm, I don't know about all of that happening, but Monkey vs. Mitsu is probably going to happen. And over Himiko would be a legit reason. I admit I thought of Mitsu might snipe Himiko, but I don't get how that would overcome death... Idk, anything could happen.

Yeah, I imagine that'll be how it will be for the fights. And LOL at Brutus avenging Caesar. Who would think that possible to happen before this ep? XD

Indeed...

Oh me too!

LOL, and that would have been how Caesar got stabbed. XD By an angry/jealous wife. XD That would have been so fun to see!

NiteBloomingRoseJun 3, 2014 2:53 AM

Jun 3, 2014 2:59 AM

#97

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NiteBloomingRose said:

Hm, I don't know about all of that happening, but Monkey vs. Mitsu is probably going to happen. And over Himiko would be a legit reason. I admit I thought of Mitsu might snipe Himiko, but I don't get how that would overcome death... Idk, anything could happen.

Yeah, I imagine that'll be how it will be for the fights. And LOL at Brutus avenging Caesar. Who would think that possible to happen before this ep? XD

Indeed...

Oh me too!

LOL, and that would have been how Caesar got stabbed. XD Not by Brutus, but an angry/jealous wife. XD That would have been so fun to see!

Yeah well, himiko getting kidnapped and saru having to rescue her would set up their romance nicely, and also puts a different perspective to mitsus betrayal, also mitsu vs hideyoshi, 2 people without mecha, but mitsu now fights with excalibur and saru with his cybor powers would make sense i guess...

I guess what im trying to say is i want to see Ichi making different expressions like she did in ep 14, like giggling and sniffing stuff, she was cute when she was with (not brainwashed) caesar, now that they are totally in love with each other their daily lives during peaceful times would be so... aaaah its painful just imagining it... but yeah seeing a jealous ichi would be really nice... funny thing is if they had survived the episode and then found out arthur seduced him by being a woman, she would really be super jealous lol...

Closest we came to see a jelly ichi is first half of the ep when she was clearly upset caesar seemingly chosing arthurs ideals over her, like when she said 'i have to know for sure' before she left to visit him and 'There is something i MUST ask you..caesar, what is it that you desire? (hint, hint: have you forgotten me?)'

they are subtle hints that she is upset he left her to go back to arthur, i mean why else would she go that far unless she loves him? after all if she doesnt, now that caesar is back on the enemy side she can just go 'ok cool i can get out of this marriage and be with mitsu', but instead she went there and went like 'i am his wife, i want to see him NOW!'

Of course, she found out the only reason he seemingly chose arthur over her was that he believed it was the only way to save her from the worlds destruction

jfsJun 3, 2014 3:19 AM

Jun 3, 2014 3:07 AM

#98

Bodomschild

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jfs said:

NiteBloomingRose said:

Hm, I don't know about all of that happening, but Monkey vs. Mitsu is probably going to happen. And over Himiko would be a legit reason. I admit I thought of Mitsu might snipe Himiko, but I don't get how that would overcome death... Idk, anything could happen.

Yeah, I imagine that'll be how it will be for the fights. And LOL at Brutus avenging Caesar. Who would think that possible to happen before this ep? XD

Indeed...

Oh me too!

LOL, and that would have been how Caesar got stabbed. XD Not by Brutus, but an angry/jealous wife. XD That would have been so fun to see!

Yeah well, himiko getting kidnapped and saru having to rescue her would set up their romance nicely, and also puts a different perspective to mitsus betrayal, also mitsu vs hideyoshi, 2 people without mecha, but mitsu now fights with excalibur and saru with his cybor powers would make sense i guess...

I guess what im trying to say is i want to see Ichi making different expressions like she did in ep 14, like giggling and sniffing stuff, she was cute when she was with (not brainwashed) caesar, now that they are totally in love with each other their daily lives during peaceful times would be so... aaaah its painful just imagining thing... but yeah seeing a jealous ichi would be really nice... funny thing is if they had survived the episode and then found out arthur seduced him by being a woman, she would really be jealous lol..

Closest we came to see a jelly ichi is first half of the ep when she was clearly upset caesar seemingly chosing arthurs ideals over her

My interest in this show really took a dive with this episode. I hope we do get a nice mention of Caesar and Ichis love next episode. The mitsu vs saru would be a nice fight. I wonder how arthur is going to fight Nobu though.

Jun 3, 2014 3:12 AM

#99