R-15 Episode 10 Discussion

Hoppy said:
Takuto, you disappoint me, dumping Utae.

Explicitz said:
We all know how this is gonna end though. He winds up being friends with all of them. Basica dumb Harem shit.

notsureifsrs said:
I have I feeling you'd like Seitokai no Ichizon. Ken is a man amongst men. A true bro.

Hoppy said:
Takuto, you disappoint me, dumping Utae.

Mr_DaftPunk said:
Dammit Takuto you're pissing me off. I dumbfounded at the fact how he is in a hot spring with a half-naked Utae, and all he can talk about is Fukune, Fukune... Fukune!

Mr_DaftPunk said:
It was interesting to see earlier in the episode when Takuto was praising Utae at the festiva for her singing, Raika was getting jealous

ZetaAspect said:
This is clearly just a last-ditch effort to resist Utae's advances by filling his mind with thoughts of the least erotic thing he can imagine. Soon enough the pressure from his irrepressible affection for Utae will shatter his psyche, whereupon he will be absorbed by his giant robot and turn into a witch.

Wait, I think I might be mixing up shows...

I don't know if she was jealous; it seemed to me that she was realizing that Taketo is completely oblivious to Utae's feelings, which will result in him hurting Utae immensely without even knowing what he's done (thereby making him, in animelandspeak, a "baka"). This is very interesting because Raika, who actively seeks out the ugliness in human nature, is actually frustrated and/or disturbed by the "ugliness" that Taketo is displaying here. Her coherent inconsistency contributes to my opinion that the characters who populate R-15 are truly top-tier in terms of the depth of their characterization and sense of realism, and it firmly cements Raika as one of, if not the greatest female characters ever written.

Oh, wait, no. Reason: R-15 is trash.

PervySan said:


This.....

What person in their right mind would take Narukara over Utae?

Some writers need to look for a new profession me thinks

Nasty001 said:


'Don't know about you guys, but I kinda prefer Fukune over Utae.

Nasty001 said:
As for Raika, I kinda feel sorry for her, then again, who cares? She's a bitch anyway.

ZetaAspect said:
I don't follow your logic. Wait, forget that: preference in women is not dependent on logic in the slightest. What was I thinking?



Yes, she's a bitch, but she's an interesting bitch.

DarthVantos said:
Hey everyone CLAM YOUR BALLS! Just because takuto is leading utae on so much is not narukawa fualt there is no reason to hate her she is not as annoying at the idol. To many people focus on her i like narukawa because she average character, unlike utae. Takuto cant sweet talk narukawa to get that cliche moe smile going on. narukawa is a vial choice over the cliche utae which all of you adore so much.

I dont think its wrong to feel for her is quite sad but the rage against narukawa is unnecessary.

DarthVantos said:
Hey everyone, CLAM YOUR BALLS! Just because Takuto is leading Utae on so much is not Narukawa's fault. There is no reason to hate her; she is not as annoying as the idol. Too many people focus on her. I like Narukawa because she's an average character, unlike Utae. Takuto can't sweet-talk Narukawa to get that cliche moe smile going on. Narukawa is a viable choice over the cliche Utae who all of you adore so much.

I don't think it's wrong to feel for her; it's quite sad, but the rage against Narukawa is unnecessary.

ZetaAspect said:
I prefer to think of it as a front for her inability to engage with her surroundings in any meaningful manner; i.e. she's not allowed to interact with anything because that would form the basis for her actually having character traits).

ZetaAspect said:
Takuto might as well purchase a body pillow with her image and a recording of the one song she can play, considering that Narukawa herself won't respond much more than that.

Yumekichi11 said:
You are wrong on that one, it was more her family and father who is the cause, which is also overused as in one from Working!! who has that problem with her father.

Yumekichi11 said:
ROFL! The first BDs limited edition do come with a Narukara dakimakura so Takuto would like that for sure.

Hoppy said:
Takuto, you disappoint me, dumping Utae.

greenmush said:
So what if he likes Fukune more then Utae, its his choice who he likes.

greenmush said:
What just because a girl had the most character development means she should end up with Taketothe main character?

greenmush said:
Lol most people here probably likes Utae because of all the episodes were shown to make people pity her.

greenmush said:
I mean out of all the side characters Utae probably had the most screentime, even more then Fukune even though she was suppose to be like the main female lead.

greenmush said:
People should stop hating a guy for liking who he wants to like.

greenmush said:
So what if he likes Fukune more then Utae, its his choice who he likes.

ZetaAspect said:
It's not really even a choice.

greenmush said:
What just because a girl had the most character development means she should end up with Taketothe main character?

ZetaAspect said:
Yes, actually. The main character is the focal point for our interest and investment in a given work; it isn't good narrative form to just throw the main protagonist away to a character who seems to lack personality. In other words, whichever girl will win should have had her character developed at least as deeply as any other girl. Otherwise, the storyteller is just slapping the audience in the face.

greenmush said:
Lol most people here probably likes Utae because of all the episodes were shown to make people pity her.

ZetaAspect said:
Well, those episodes were not necessarily there to make us pity her. From a descriptive standpoint, they only gave us more time to see what kind of person she is. If we pity her, it's because we believe she has been wronged, and we can only think that if we think she deserved otherwise. The only way we'll make this assessment is if we care about her, and it's hard to care about someone whose character has been poorly developed or not developed at all.

greenmush said:
I mean out of all the side characters Utae probably had the most screentime, even more then Fukune even though she was suppose to be like the main female lead.

ZetaAspect said:
But Fukune is just so boring! Wait, if they had given her more screen-time, maybe they could have fixed that...

greenmush said:
People should stop hating a guy for liking who he wants to like.

ZetaAspect said:
It's not so much hatred as it is us silently shaking our heads in a mixture of bewilderment and disgrace and then getting angry at Taketo for the pain he is inevitably going to cause the girl who probably ought to win the harem war, all for the sake of a girl who, to us, looks more like a block of wood than a human being, given all the character development she's gotten (like, none).

ZetaAspect said:
You know, to unilaterally impose my personal reaction upon everyone else in this forum.

dontthinklive said:
I would like to presumptiously analyze ZetaAspect and greenmush's points.

dontthinklive said:
Well, let's get some more insight, using that greenmush's logic, so what if Utae likes Takuto. It's her choice who she likes as well.

dontthinklive said:
Simply saying X likes Y because X has a choice doesn't much add to your argument. I hope you can see that.

dontthinklive said:
Here, I agree with greenmush's point, on practical terms. ZetaAspect's point of "yes those with the most character development should end up with the main character" is an overgeneralization.

Because, although it is reasonable to assume that characters with more character development SHOULD be a focal of any story, there are times when sub-character's plots just get advanced for no romantic reason.

The point I would like to make is that just because a character gets flushed out doesn't have any bearings on the romantic interests of any main characters.

dontthinklive said:
(why on earth you would develop side characters over main character's is beyond my artistic comprehension)

dontthinklive said:
(if the Takuto x Fukune pairing is set in stone <--dear god, please no.)

dontthinklive said:
which people watching this show have stated that they "pity" or feel bad for Utae as a result of said episodes?

dontthinklive said:
it is hard to feel empathy for someone else who's story has NOT been flushed out OR has NOT driven the plot AT ALL, aside from episode 1 and 4 (where Fukune was stuck to Takuto).

dontthinklive said:
Fukune was supposed to be the main lead but this is an ecchi harem series! Meaning that takes importance over any romance.

dontthinklive said:
Nonetheless, I have a feeling that they gave Utae the most screen time because she was the MOST interesting character. This is just my assumption, which may be reasonable on grounds that, the director of the anime series didn't read the light novel far enough to distinguish Utae's prominence in the original work to depict her as a main lead OR that AIC decided last minute to add more Utae time because they just couldn't find any more substance with Fukune. To simply toss Utae aside after all those advances, is just disappointing, considering how much the viewer saw of her attempts.

dontthinklive said:
Regardless, the omission of Fukune as a major plot point till now is pretty bad directing for a harem series that can't decide whether or not it wants to be a RomCom or an ecchi series with no resolution.

dontthinklive said:
I must digress and say that we don't HATE X (Takuto) or Y (Fukune)

dontthinklive said:
Like I said before, instead of just dismissing our reasons, it would be better if you could give your reasons why X should be with Y, err, why Takuto should be with Fukune.

dontthinklive said:
They have given actually a lot of legitimate examples

dontthinklive said:
Keep up the good fight!

ZetaAspect
And I don't think anyone has any reason to hate a lifeless doll. After all, nothing that happens is the doll's fault.[/quote said:


That is exactly what makes her character, the lack of screentime and lack of involvement is the series of course the writers fault. She is lifeless and appealing so little is known about this character and she does not explain anything unless asked. Takuto has clearly friendzoned utae so he can talk to her about anything and ask her for help since she reliable and close to him. As narukura there is a since of distance in there relationship they are not really familiar with each other and takuto is interested in her so he does not want the little bit of information known him him takin the wrong way. But back to Narukura herself as a character. You are correct in saying she is a little dull and plays that ONE fucking song all the damn time. But that is makes her anverge dull character to rare. Because in most anime the character trys to be very flashy and appealing in the same way other animes represent tehre characters making this idol chara cliche and Dere chara rare ( dont know if dere is the right term).

To give you an example of this Haruhi is an out going chara who si popular and great in all aspect (flashy). Clearly spends most of her time with the main protagonist and they are close. But nagato there character that has less recognition ( in the anime) reads books and does not interact with the cast ( unless a major conflict is happening)
But yet this emotionless android is clearly everyone's favorite. The main protagonist is also interested in her ( as a person) wishes to find out more about this far attached character.

I find this very similar to takuto and narakura relationship with the viewers and then themselves. Maybe this is personal preference but i believe these kinds of characters are not be underestimated they are not in sense of a bad character but a different one.

DarthVantos said:
That is exactly what makes her character, the lack of screentime and lack of involvement in the series of course the writers fault. She is lifeless and appealing [unappealing?] so little is known about this character and she does not explain anything unless asked. Takuto has clearly friendzoned utae so he can talk to her about anything and ask her for help since shes reliable and close to him. As narukawa there is a sense of distance in their relationship they are not really familiar with each other and takuto is interested in her so he does not want the little bit of information known him taken the wrong way.

DarthVantos said:
But back to Narukura herself as a character. You are correct in saying she is a little dull and plays that ONE fucking song all the damn time. But that is makes her average dull character to rare. Because in most anime the character tries to be very flashy and appealing in the same way other animes represent their characters making this idol chara cliche and Dere chara rare ( dont know if dere is the right term).

DarthVantos said:
To give you an example of this Haruhi is an out going chara who is popular and great in all aspects (flashy). Clearly spends most of her time with the main protagonist and they are close. But nagato there character that has less recognition (in the anime) reads books and does not interact with the cast (unless a major conflict is happening).
But yet this emotionless android is clearly everyone's favorite. The main protagonist is also interested in her (as a person) wishes to find out more about this far attached [detached?] character.

DarthVantos said:
I find this very similar to takuto and narukawa relationship with the viewers and then themselves. Maybe this is personal preference but i believe these kinds of characters are not be underestimated they are not in sense of a bad character but a different one.

ZetaAspect said:
Be my guest! :D Critical thought is always welcome.

ZetaAspect said:



Following that logic further, we should not feel any pity or sympathy for Utae, because it's entirely her fault for choosing to like Takuto despite him being unattainable. (This seems wrong to me.)

ZetaAspect said:
This wasn't directed at me, was it? Because if it was, then one of us isn't understanding the other correctly.

ZetaAspect said:


I actually agree with you and greenmush to a certain extent; it is true that characterization is not intrinsically linked with the plot. In that sense, you're right; it doesn't matter who gets well-characterized. There's a difference between being the character whom the main character likes and being the character whom the audience knows most deeply. I also fully understand that side characters can receive plenty of non-romantic development or can have their personal plot threads furthered without any consequences for romantic (sub)plots. (However, Utae's developments are pretty clearly romance-relevant, so I'm not sure your argument applies here).

ZetaAspect said:


That said, the story and characters are crafted with a purpose (as you later acknowledge), and various narrative conventions are applicable. In that case, the main character ending up with someone who has received relatively little character development is something that should never be allowed to happen.

Also, of note, you've inverted my statement. I did not mean that the most-developed character should end up with the main character; I meant that the character who is intended by the creator(s) to end up with the main character should be developed rather well relative to (at least) the majority of cast (partially as a necessity to make the final result maximally palatable and satisfying). Your interpretation can be inferred from my original statement, but I don't think it is a necessary consequence. It subtly alters the causal structure of the scenario my statement discusses.

ZetaAspect said:
I know, right?

ZetaAspect said:
This makes me grin.

ZetaAspect said:
I think a few people have mentioned feeling bad/sad for Utae, or that it is not wrong the feel that way, on the basis of at least episode 10. Rayyy, HawthorneKitty, DarthVantos, and maybe mrmuk have expressed something along those lines.

ZetaAspect said:
Well said.

ZetaAspect said:
Interesting comment, considering how Takuto more-or-less refuses to look at Fukune in a sexual light (or to reveal a part of his sexuality to her by admitting to writing porn), whereas he is fine thinking of Utae sexually and admits to her to being a porno author. From this, you could then posit that Fukune's lack of screen-time is a direct result of the mismatch between how erotic/sexual she is (and is viewed by Takuto as being) and the priorities of the show (i.e. titillation first, everything else second). To rephrase it again, Fukune is not a fanservice girl, and she's (nominally) the lead in a show that's all about exploiting its female cast for fanservice. The result seems obvious.

ZetaAspect said:
It's really tough to say what kind of characters Utae and Fukune were in the source material. Furthermore, sometimes characters doomed by merit of being a member of the supporting cast can become rather, uh, undoomed. I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible to draw comparisons to Hayate no Gotoku! and Hinagiku Katsura (a supporting character who was promoted to a front-runner in the love polygon, if I recall correctly).

ZetaAspect said:
Well said, again.

ZetaAspect said:
I'm not so sure you're digressing; I think it's a rather critical component to the argument. Although I interpreted them differently, there were quite a few posts expressing aggravation with those characters. Considering how determining the real emotions underlying an internet comment is basically a crap-shoot, I can see how this could be interpreted as hatred. I just personally don't think that's the right interpretation.

dontthinklive said:
Like I said before, instead of just dismissing our reasons, it would be better if you could give your reasons why X should be with Y, err, why Takuto should be with Fukune.

ZetaAspect said:
All the credit for examples goes to Explicitz, since I didn't actually use any in my arguments. :D

ZetaAspect said:
You too.

SuperKyou said:
Was it really necessary to quote a bible of quotes just to say like one line in response to each point?

Seriously?

SuperKyou said:
Was it really necessary to quote a bible of quotes just to say like one line in response to each point?

Seriously?

dontthinklive said:
allow me to ask: how was it that you arrived at the conclusion that based on greenmush's logic we shouldn't feel sympathy for Utae?

dontthinklive said:
Are we to assume that only Utae is at fault for falling for Takuto and she knew that he was unattainabie (despite being "unattainable" being an actually assumption) and these actions should make us oblvious to sympathy for her?

dontthinklive said:
What I mean to say is, for the sake of greenmush's argument, please enlighten me on how her choosing to like Takuto's "forbidden love" means we can't feel sympathy for her?

dontthinklive said:
1) Are we able respect people like Socrates who died believing in his ideals, rather than just giving up his tenets? Was his struggle in vain and was there nothing to be sympathetic about? I would vehementally say that "no that is not the case." As matter of fact, Socarates' death in his belief only served to underscore the importance of his values and messages.

dontthinklive said:
2) Even in lieu of that example, and with Utae being aware of Takuto's unattainability; these points do not belie the fact that we can and SHOULD feel sympathy for her because simply have had more time invested in watching her actions. We should be interested in what her next actions are and what her motives may be- all which contribute to our sympathy to the character, regardless of whether or not she likes Takuto.

dontthinklive said:
I hope both these points, that someone determined to do something despite unattainability and that we CAN be sympathic because we have invested time in Utae's character can illustrate the weakness in greenmush's logical statement of "just let X like Y." and your support for his arguement that "yes, let X like Y, so we don't need to feel sympathy for Z, because it is Z's fault for liking X."

dontthinklive said:
I just wanted to respond to your parenthesis portion that mentioned Utae's developments being "romance-relevant." Despite the plots being very likely relevant to romantic interests of the main character, it could be very much the case that the director was just "trolling" his audience- meaning leading onto something with no real purpose or point.

dontthinklive said:
I believe that sophistry and analytical discussions were a target audience for the producers of the show, which have given rise to the topics by which we have been discussing at length.

dontthinklive said:
I strongly agree with you on the points you bring up in order to make a story satiate our appetite for a truly moving and remarkable story. Though, we probably need to remind ourselves that we are talking about a harem series invovling a teenage porn novel writer, so our expectations probably should not be set too high. Of course, I watch with hope that the show sticks to the light novels, which I'm sure have been well-writ which have then caught both the anime producers and our attention to get to this point.

dontthinklive said:
without said posters stating from what episodes has caused them and "why they pity Utae" it would be a grave prevarication on our part to assume that we know so.

dontthinklive said:
I doubt we can all agree with one another as to why Utae should be pitied, and I am sure there are a ton of reasons both related and unrelated to how much screen time she has gotten. All this points are irrespective of HOW MUCH and WHAT Utae has done in her screen time. That is to say, there is NO CONNECTION BETWEEN WHAT feeling we feel towards a character and the AMOUNT of screen time they get.

dontthinklive said:
To be clear, let me return go back to the earlier discussions of characterization and plot development made prior. This logically established the fact that we CAN sympathize with a character, and that this feeling CAN be engendered because of the amount of time we have spent with that character and how another character with LESS time is getting rewarded.

dontthinklive said:
Furthermore, it is LIKELY that we feel sympathy for the said character with more amount of time, BUT it is NOT NECESSARY.

dontthinklive said:
This is different from the point I am making here, i.e. that, regardless of how much we've seen a character, we can feel ANYTHING towards that character, and we should not assume that is for the same reasons for everyone.

dontthinklive said:
the point of the discussion is to voice our opinions with reasons! Not to just simply voice our opinions! (=

dontthinklive said:
I am sure this HATE is grounded with reasoning, which I hope to illuminate for both sides through our discussion. (=

dontthinklive said:
Recall that entire episode where Utae was helping Takuto find out his editor's background because it was important to Takuto.

dontthinklive said:
remember examples are our friends! (=

dontthinklive said:
And just to be obnoxious:

UtaeXTakuto forever! <3