False dilemma?

Mar 4, 8:23 AM

Offline

Nov 2019

This is a discussion topic for those who have already completed the show.
SPOILERS AHEAD!

For me, one of the main themes the series tackled with was the moral dilemma of "kill or die", the shiki claimed to be facing, most directly shown with risen Ritsuko's breakdown. The shiki were saying that they need to kill humans to survive themselves, Sunako and Tohru were crying about it. However, for me it doesn't seem like the rest of the worldbuilding supports that.

We have evidence that the shiki can switch victims before they die, like when Megumi switched from Natsuno to Tohru, while Natsuno was still alive.
We have evidence from the special episode 2 that the shiki can feed on previously extracted blood, like Kaname's mother, so for example stealing blood packs from clinics and hospitals was also an option.

So isn't it that the shiki can live without killing, it's just that Sunako and cooperators WANTED to create a shiki village and were indoctrinating, threatening and otherwise forcing all of the shiki they created in Sotoba to kill?
And on a side note, what do you think was their endgame for when there would be no more living people in Sotoba? Mass kidnappings from the surrounding villages, towns and cities? Because that would certainly not draw any attention... Isn't for example Sunako a bit too naive and stupid for a ~150 year old?

Please tell me what you think and correct me if I'm wrong!

Mar 4, 8:34 AM

Piromysl

Offline

Jul 2015

12724

It's been like ten years since I watched this, but I don't really think there is much dilemma here.
Humans had all the right to be opposed to being killed and turned. Wether it was necessary for Shiki to kill humans or not is irrelevant.
Though I found it unnerving how humans were kinda joyful while commuting their little genocide on Shiki while chanting, singing and cheering.

And what would happen is probably the same thing they did many times before.
They would just move somewhere else.

Mar 4, 8:44 AM

0__Dante__0

Offline

Nov 2022

155

watched 5 or 6 yrs ago
even if sunako was over 100 she was just a child
It was never shown that she was brilliant in mind games or statergy (as I remember)

and for to survive on packed blood or not necessary to kill human : well compare to ur own life
u can survive with just labor job that is sufficient to provide to 2 time food (not delicious one ofc) but u still crave for other accessories like good house,fresh food and car nah?

to simplify : they did it because they COULD DO IT

Mar 4, 9:02 AM

Lucifrost

Offline

Feb 2016

13143

I share your interpretation of this anime. Shiki are truly fascinating villains.

その目だれの目？

Mar 4, 12:00 PM

Criscosandwich

Offline

Aug 2014

111

I re-watched Shiki several months ago during 2024 and I also want to preface this with Shiki being an anime I have a long history with; Shiki being an anime that I have probably re-watched the most (second to Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood) and gaining a different opinion on it every re-watch I have done with this show, but I feel by now I have a pretty good grasp on my thoughts of the show at this point. This is not to say my opinion/take is the ultimate correct one; I just really like this show then I saw this discussion and decided to throw my hat in the ring because I love talking about it!

***MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD FOR THE ENTIRE ANIME AS WELL AS THE OVA EPISODES, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED***

Despite not having a lot of screen time during the first half of the show, Sunako is the perpetrator behind this entire scheme. Due to it having been a good several months since my last review of the show, I can not exactly remember how the show initially puts her role, but Sunako is the oldest of the Kirishiki "family" despite appearing as a child (she died quite a long time ago before we're introduced to the Kirishiki's, at least 100 years ago if not more) and has quite the solid iron grip on the family. Chizuru, the elder feminine figure we would assume to be the matriarch of the family, is actually described to us more as the "daughter to Sunako". Sunako's experience living as a shiki/vampire has brought her to the conclusion that she needs a base of operations and as we are shown throughout the show's runtime she has adopted a very ruthless ideology for turning the entire town to achieve her shiki/vampire utopia.

It is Sunako's ruthless pursuit of such a utopia that forces the turned villagers to kill and transform the entire village. I believe (if I am incorrect then disregard this, I am currently running off of my memory while typing this) there is a scene where Tohru makes a plea toward Sunako as to why they must kill and turn the entire village and he is answered in threats. Should the newly risen Shiki fail to follow Sunako's rules and will, there are certain consequences (whether that be immediate death, starvation, torture or etc. I am not really sure if the anime ever truly clarifies that) that follow. This is at least how I interpreted it.

Sunako's naivete largely comes from the fact that she died a child. Despite having lived for 100+ years following her transformation into a shiki/vampire, Sunako never grew up. She never moved past that "childhood naivety" that every human being goes through. Her wordly experience is through the eyes of a child vampire. She has had to fight to survive as a vampire her entire undeath and never learned the wisdom of life as a regular human being. This is the tragedy but also means for her ending up in her delusional ideology that causes the entire issue in Sotoba. She is a cynical child, she has lost the ability to feel empathy for the living people due to living as a monster, and whether she wants to admit it or not she is horrifically jealous of the life ripped away from her.

In my opinion even if Sunako had managed to turn the entire secluded village of Sotoba into shiki/vampires, her base would have been discovered eventually, as Sunako seems to be incapable of thinking about human emotion and reactions to her actions. Perhaps we as the viewers are meant to interpret the ending where she is successfully rescued and evacuated from the burning Sotoba that her subsequent time with Muroi could help her learn such feelings and they'll learn to coexist with the living; however, as that follows the ending of the show and there has been no follow-up since the initial release that is up to the individual.

I can see where the empathy for certain shiki/turned villagers comes from, Tohru was likely gaslit into his beliefs that led him to commit such atrocities and it was only by the end of the show when he accepted death alongside Ritsuko that he realized how far gone he had become as well as the horrid gravity of his choices were, despite whatever manipulation he had gone through may have excused him of responsibility for a time (if at all). There's also Nao to consider, a woman who's immense bottomless void of guilt from being the one who annihilated her entire family single-handedly led her to insanity. However, with this being said, these two faced proper repercussions for their unforgiveable acts. While we can feel empathy for the characters in those moments, they still made the decision to kill. Ritsuko was the only shiki that realized she had the option of choice, a choice of mercy, and was better off mentally for that when she inevitably dies.

My main takeaway of the show's message is that people will do monstrous things in order to survive. A Primal fear of death is present within a large portion of the show's cast and it's not only the shiki that commit atrocities in order to live. Dr. Ozaki performed such an act and a good portion of the villagers abandoned their humanity in pursuit of the shiki as well. A lot of the characters in this show are monsters regardless of what they appear as physically. Both the shiki and the live humans ended up monsters by the end.

Regardless if anyone has any thoughts to add or continue this discussion I would love to hear them! I love seeing discussions like this pop up from time to time and I love that I can still talk about this show ten years after I originally watched it!

Mar 4, 12:43 PM

lordJahoo

Offline

Nov 2019

@Piromysl I was thinking more about the dilemma that the already turned faced. I don't think they would move, that would beat the entire point of Sunako's vision of creating a safe haven. Also, there is no way they could move all together (there would probably be more than 200 shiki). One of the main reasons Sunako refused Tatsumi's initial suggestion of escaping as soon as Chizuru was killed was because she didn't want to have to abandon their new "comrades".

@0__Dante__0 true, but she did read a lot of books and went through a lot of experiences...
Right, so it seems you agree that the killing was not needed for survival and that the dilemma was false.

@Lucifrost Indeed, I'm glad I rewatched it.

@Criscosandwich Wow, thank you so much for your long and insightful answer! You may be right, I assumed the sheer number of experiences and read books would make Sunako smart, but even real life elderly people can be quite irrational, despite not living all alone, in constant fear of being killed or starving and in a body of a child...
Yeah, the oppression by Sunako through mostly Tatsumi was made pretty clear, like forcing all new shiki to kill someone immediately to make them accustomed to it, indoctrinating them into thinking there is no other way and threatening them.
The deaths of shiki like Ritsuko and Kaname's mom were very tragic for me, I believe they would be able to coexist with people if given a chance. Many others probably too, especially if they had different starts to being shiki. If the existence of the shiki got widely recognized, then, with modern humanism, if it was extended, I think shiki could get tolerated in some regions of the world in the XXI century. Get them some blood and jobs like working underwater, in zones with high radiation or respiratory hazards, various night shifts... Maybe have them serve some prison time or agree to being experimented on for the people they killed. But in reality, that would be a very difficult process and singular incidents could destroy the fragile trust and lead to genocides. They would also probably get used in wars...
Yep, a lot of overall monstrosity all around in the show, haha

Mar 4, 11:27 PM

0__Dante__0

Offline

Nov 2022

155

lordJahoo said:
@Piromysl I was thinking more about the dilemma that the already turned faced. I don't think they would move, that would beat the entire point of Sunako's vision of creating a safe haven. Also, there is no way they could move all together (there would probably be more than 200 shiki). One of the main reasons Sunako refused Tatsumi's initial suggestion of escaping as soon as Chizuru was killed was because she didn't want to have to abandon their new "comrades".

@0__Dante__0 true, but she did read a lot of books and went through a lot of experiences...
Right, so it seems you agree that the killing was not needed for survival and that the dilemma was false.

@Lucifrost Indeed, I'm glad I rewatched it.

@Criscosandwich Wow, thank you so much for your long and insightful answer! You may be right, I assumed the sheer number of experiences and read books would make Sunako smart, but even real life elderly people can be quite irrational, despite not living all alone, in constant fear of being killed or starving and in a body of a child...
Yeah, the oppression by Sunako through mostly Tatsumi was made pretty clear, like forcing all new shiki to kill someone immediately to make them accustomed to it, indoctrinating them into thinking there is no other way and threatening them.
The deaths of shiki like Ritsuko and Kaname's mom were very tragic for me, I believe they would be able to coexist with people if given a chance. Many others probably too, especially if they had different starts to being shiki. If the existence of the shiki got widely recognized, then, with modern humanism, if it was extended, I think shiki could get tolerated in some regions of the world in the XXI century. Get them some blood and jobs like working underwater, in zones with high radiation or respiratory hazards, various night shifts... Maybe have them serve some prison time or agree to being experimented on for the people they killed. But in reality, that would be a very difficult process and singular incidents could destroy the fragile trust and lead to genocides. They would also probably get used in wars...
Yep, a lot of overall monstrosity all around in the show, haha

yea
killing was just to give it a thrill imo
also that made this show worthwatching

See All Discussions

Poll: » Shiki Episode 6 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 ) Hoppy - Aug 12, 2010	191	by emivenus »» Mar 26, 3:59 AM
Poll: » Shiki Episode 5 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ) Hannah_Ana - Aug 5, 2010	229	by emivenus »» Mar 25, 11:13 PM
Poll: » Shiki Episode 4 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page ) yakisobapan - Jul 29, 2010	300	by emivenus »» Mar 25, 12:33 AM
» Shiki gay subtext Nachoalpe - Mar 18	6	by M024 »» Mar 24, 8:40 PM
Poll: » Shiki Episode 3 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ) magelet - Jul 22, 2010	234	by emivenus »» Mar 23, 11:25 PM

False dilemma?

More topics from this board

Poll: » Shiki Episode 6 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 )

Poll: » Shiki Episode 5 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 )

Poll: » Shiki Episode 4 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )

» Shiki gay subtext

Poll: » Shiki Episode 3 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 )

MoreTop Anime

MoreTop Airing Anime

MoreMost Popular Characters