Why do a lot of MT fans try to defend EVERYTHING their faves do?

@pielopelotta I agree with this. Most of the dialogue about MT from genuine haters is exhausting and petulant more often than not. That's not what this post is about though

people who do that make it pretty difficult to discuss this show's characters without it just devolving into arguments

Though it devolving into an argument really isn't a problem, if you want to engage with this media and openly discuss it, you should be open for argumentation, this obviously does not excuse narrow-mindedness and insults but the mere fact that arguments arise is not what I see as the problem here. I do think that people are allowed to defend these types of behaviour, just as much as I am allowed to find it appalling at times, the fact that there are different views here really isn't the problem. I do find it a bit shocking, how many people are willing to ignore a lot of what is happening in this show or fail to see what is wrong with it, I would really hope this to be a narrative people observe in a critical manner, but that doesn't make me hate the idea of having a discussion on these topics. What I find makes this a bit tricky is more so, if you start to make yourself believe that the actions in this show are somewhat justified, you have to alter the way you approach this kind of stuff out right, and it is hard to convey problems to people that actively don't want to see them.

I've already gotten used to the fact that no matter what Rudeus or any other character does, hardcore fans will still defend everything. The funny thing is that when you write something about it, they write "it's an anime, the MC has many flaws" but when you discuss these flaws, suddenly Rudeus becomes innocent. Rudeus molests girls? nah they deserved it hahahha. Taking off Eris' panties? nah, he's just a kid, he doesn't know what he's doing.
Cheating on your wife? ''he was depressed and sad, it's not his fault, and besides, there is polygamy there.''"If you don't like it, don't watch it" XD it doesn't matter that the main character and Roxy themselves repeatedly admit that what they did was fucked up, but people don't care. what Rudeus did is morally wrong because he slept with another woman without Sylphie's knowledge or permission and only caused her stress. The fact that Sylphie is passive and characterless and will take every blow without crying or getting angry is only lucky for eRudeus. She has so little faith in her husband that she knew that sooner or later she would be cheated on. What does that really say about their relationship?



I have the impression that only Norn thinks normally there. Because ok, there is polygamy, but there are also such things as moral principles. She said everything Sylphie should have shouted to Rudeus and Roxy in their faces. Because you can agree to a second wife, but it doesn't change the fact that it was a huge lack of respect towards Sylphie.

@SkyhighCFC It doesn't really matter what the characters themselves think, that's just the decision of the author after all. People will defend the actions if they themselves think the reasons did justify them.

@Zarutaku But that would ignore our ability to critique the authors choices. Of course, these decisions were made by the author, and that is exactly what we are critiquing here. This would be like saying "well, you can't critique Ted Cruz for being a racist piece of shit, that's just his opinion". While we can not critique people for their opinion alone, we can very much critique what they share with us, and the fact that we know about the author's opinions already shows that they voice them. People are allowed to defend these actions, but to defend them under the assumption that the author's choice is final and can not be question would remove all responsibility a creator has in the context of the work they create. Let's say you have a narrative like Mushoku Tensei, where sexism is integral to the story being told, this gives us a reason for why it is so acceptable in this world to have a harem, but that does not necessarily give a reason for the world to function this way. Internal consistency is not all reason that needs to apply. A world that is consistently racist might follow the rules of causality and present a logical narrative, but if you do not say anything with a world like that, or present it as a setting in which the people live happily, in which minorities are glad to be oppressed, then you are not just presenting an internally consistent work, you are being racist. Criticism is not limited to the bounds of the world a story takes place in, it is only limited by how we perceive our world to function and how we use that knowledge to approach fiction. This is the fundamental issue I see a lot of people ignoring, to them, it only matters if whatever happens makes sense within the world, if what they read and see is logical for the people within this fictional setting, they don't even consider what these things imply.

I've been saying this since forever and I'll say it again, characters with bad morality doesn't mean the writing is bad or the anime itself is bad. It is just a part of the story. Flawed personality =/= flawed character.

Reality is that those who defend the anime (again not the character. Most people doesn't do that) are not giving out excuses. Rather haters are the ones who's giving excuses with their nonexistent reasons.

It should have been common sense but almost every hater seems to be retarded.

It seems you are talking about something different, this topic isn't about criticizing the author's decisions, but determining why some people defend the certain actions of certain characters, which is outside of the author's control.

@Zarutaku But is it though? From what I have seen this far, the main argument for the actions that characters commit, would be to point at their history and place in the world, in other words to use the story the author built up as justification for the character's action. This makes sense purely on the basis of causality, but that is really not what people critique the show and Light Novel for, it is about what the stories imply through this world. If people ignore these things and only start arguing against an argument that was never made, if they only question this work in its own internal logic, then they very much are missing the point. Of course, this ignorance is something we need to critique these indivual people for, but the thing they are ignoring is something we need to critique the work itself for. So yeah, you are right, but also, it is both, ignoring either group would be wrong, but the simple truth of the matter is, people talk about a work of art a whole lot more than they talk about how other people talk about that work of art. In other words, you are going to hear a lot more criticism direct at the author, than you will at the reader.

Let me make this simple for you to understand.

Attack on Titan is literally about characters committing genocide, still, there are people out there saying it is one of the greatest anime ever written. In a moral sense, you should say AOT is a terrible show because it promotes war crimes and makes you listen to the perspective of a psychopathic somewhat messiah character trying to conduct a cleansing of the world. But even then, people like it because of the storytelling. It's the same as Death Note, people like it because of how the anime is adapted and the storytelling, not because it's about relatability. Trying to use flawed characters as a criticism of bad anime would make you look like a hypocrite because plenty of anime have morally ambiguous characters and it's been like this ever since then. I am not here to try and defend the character's actions, because it is logically disgusting, no matter how much you try to twist it. But even then, do those actions really define what the show is?

I've been saying this since forever and I'll say it again, characters with bad morality doesn't mean the writing is bad or the anime itself is bad. It is just a part of the story. Flawed personality =/= flawed character.

Reality is that those who defend the anime (again not the character. Most people doesn't do that) are not giving out excuses. Rather haters are the ones who's giving excuses with their nonexistent reasons.

It should have been common sense but almost every hater seems to be retarded.

@ZeroMajor12 Oh, how delightfully naive your perspective is! Equating complex storytelling with mere moral ambiguity shows your depth of understanding is as profound as a thimble.

Reducing Attack on Titan to "characters committing genocide" is laughably simplistic. The series explores themes of survival, freedom, and the cyclical nature of violence—concepts clearly beyond your feeble grasp. It's like trying to teach calculus to a parrot.

Your comparison of Attack on Titan to Death Note is equally absurd. These shows delve into human nature’s darkest corners, not just surface-level plots. Your inability to see this is almost endearing, like a squirrel trying to solve a Rubik's cube.

Claiming that using flawed characters as criticism is hypocrisy is peak stupidity. Depth and execution are what matter. Morally ambiguous characters don't make a story great—the underlying messages and craftsmanship do, something your walnut-sized brain can't comprehend. It’s like watching a toddler trying to conduct a symphony.

Keep spouting your half-baked drivel while the rest of us enjoy true narrative artistry. Your opinions are as useful as a solar-powered flashlight at night, and your presence in serious discussions is a reminder of why mediocrity persists. You're floundering in the dark, blissfully unaware of the brilliance around you.

@BimJomp Your response proves that moral ambiguity does not make an anime bad. This is exactly the response I was waiting for and why it needs to be shown to everyone. Because most of the criticism from Mushoku Tensei derives from the main characters' questionable actions and not from the show itself. Though I find it funny that you're trying to call me stupid when I was just trying to make you give me that response.

@ZeroMajor12 How utterly adorable. You think you've crafted some grand intellectual trap, don't you? It's almost endearing, like watching a hamster believe it's conquering Everest by running in its wheel.

Your attempt at playing the puppet master is as transparent as cellophane. Pretending you're Eren Yeager, orchestrating responses with brilliant foresight, is as laughable as a toddler claiming to outsmart Einstein. Pseudointellectuals like you thrive on the illusion of being "one step ahead," but in reality, you're just spinning in circles.

Critiquing complex narratives with your shallow grasp is akin to a goldfish trying to comprehend the ocean. Your desperation for validation is painfully evident. You baited me for a response, hoping to feign control, but here's the twist: I saw through your flimsy charade from the start. Responding to your nonsense was like swatting an insignificant fly—momentarily bothersome but ultimately trivial.

So, continue basking in your delusions of grandeur. Your "strategy" is as effective as using a sieve to carry water, and your understanding of narrative critique is as profound as a puddle after a drizzle. Keep pretending you're a master tactician, while the rest of us engage in meaningful, nuanced discussions that will forever be beyond your reach. Your presence is a sad testament to the persistence of mediocrity, a reminder that even the dullest tools in the shed can make noise.

@BimJomp Dude, with that level of vocabulary, you should make a book with that.

@ZeroMajor12 You think my vocabulary is impressive enough for a book? How utterly naive. I'm not wasting my time on something as pedestrian as a book. Instead, I'm creating "Eternal Quest," a manga that's already generating buzz among critics.

"Eternal Quest" is a narrative masterpiece, a tapestry of storytelling so rich it would likely be wasted on your pedestrian taste. Feel free to try it when it comes out, though it might soar far above your limited intellectual horizon.

The layers of "Eternal Quest" are like a symphony, each note perfectly placed to create an epic far beyond the drivel you probably consume. Comparing my work to average manga is like comparing the Sistine Chapel to a child's doodle.

So, while you bask in your simplistic dreams of books, I'll be setting the world ablaze with "Eternal Quest." It will stand as a testament to true narrative brilliance, leaving you and your kind in the shadows. Keep dreaming small, my friend, while I redefine the boundaries of storytelling.

@BimJomp Dude, you're too funny, I can't stop laughing XD

Yes, the author has no control over and isn't responsible for how and why individual fans "use the story" to justify and defend certain actions of the characters, which is the question of this topic and I explained why I think they do it.

@Zarutaku To quote you here: "Characters do wrong things for a reason, and these reasons are what you described as "every excuse under the sun" in your post.
This is a discussion, so naturally people will point out the reasons of the character's actions and if they think they were justified, then they will defend them."

Of course, people will only defend what they find to be justified, but I was simply critiquing the underlying logic of how these justifications work. In general, people take the wrong approach to a lot of this stuff, and that was what my point was about. Of course, the author can't be blamed for individual fans excusing what they did, but that doesn't change that they still did it. So yeah, you are right, you can't blame the author for the behaviour of their fans, and I never tried to say that. The simple truth of the matter is, that to say that fans are misrepresenting this piece of media, it is integral to prove that it does not only function as the product they perceive, but is also given context through the world we live in. You can't not critique the author, if you want to critique this kind of behaviour, because what I am trying to point out here, are people that only follow this world's internal logic, just like the author did. This is not about critiquing the author and their work, but to understand why these fans are wrong, you need to do that, because you only see their wrong-doing if you look at this story critically. So yeah, the author is not to blame for how their fans discuss this work, but we still have to critique them anyway, otherwise, it would be impossible to talk about the miscommunication from these kinds of people.

Repeating the same bullshit argument time and time again won't suddenly make it true or valid.

@mshfqtny


You know I just have to point out, because I'm "retarded" I think all of you are insane lunatics. So here's the deal, yes Rudeus and Roxy say that they are bad people yada yada yada, but the main point is that Rudy is absolutely always rewarded for EVERY bad decision he does. There's no punishment, there's no consequences for anything he does. In the whole show the only time Rudeus "paid" for his actions was with the Archer girl, end even then she was mad because he WOULDN'T FUCK HER!!?? The only reason why he goes to the magic academy was to cure his impotence, because Eris let's be honest just used him. And even she gets to be forgiven and becomes his third wife! How can you people justify this as good writing?! It's literally writers fetishistic desires because everyone agrees with it and nobody ever suffer the consequences in the end.

Also there was a post in here about Jaime Lannister, that was just most idiotic and insane thing I read today. The reason why people love him is because he suffered the consequences of his shitty actions and his cockiness, he actually becomes more sympathetic and nuanced because he comes to question his actions and morals in the end (and I'm talking about book Jaime not that travesty from HBO). And Rudeus never get's this treatment, he gets almost everything handed to him on a silver plate. The amount of times he got punished for HIS shitty actions is almost nonexistent and THAT is why people call you out and shit on your beloved "masterpiece" that is in simple words just a horny power fantasy and not a nuanced and intelligent show that you all claim it is.

Also there's nothing wrong with loving this show, I actually like it, it's entertaining and I have fun watching it, but at the same time I know that it's just trash without some bigger value that people are delusional about. It's fine loving something as long as you can see and understand why so many people are calling it bad and why some of their arguments are actually rock solid. But sadly that's not how people work and as soon as you attack something they love no matter how reasonable and factual the reasons are they see themselves as attacked because how can THEY be wrong for loving something!? No, that other person who is "attacking" them is wrong becaue if he isn't that means they are less inteligent than the "attacker".

I'm not trying to judge it as right or wrong that people justify and defend certain actions based on individual interpretation of the story, and I wouldn't call it miscommunication because they just say how they perceive it.

Let me make this simple for you to understand.

Attack on Titan is literally about characters committing genocide, still, there are people out there saying it is one of the greatest anime ever written. In a moral sense, you should say AOT is a terrible show because it promotes war crimes and makes you listen to the perspective of a psychopathic somewhat messiah character trying to conduct a cleansing of the world. But even then, people like it because of the storytelling. It's the same as Death Note, people like it because of how the anime is adapted and the storytelling, not because it's about relatability. Trying to use flawed characters as a criticism of bad anime would make you look like a hypocrite because plenty of anime have morally ambiguous characters and it's been like this ever since then. I am not here to try and defend the character's actions, because it is logically disgusting, no matter how much you try to twist it. But even then, do those actions really define what the show is?

@Malisa90 first of all, don't talk about the eris situation without reading the novel.


Secondly, you're talking about a complete different thing as i am. I addressed the most common 'criticism' I've seen. Which is the mc is a bad person, so the anime's bad. Which is wrong. Your argument talks about a complete different thing.

Thirdly, you're removing every good aspects and emphasizing on almost nonexistent bad aspects. If you weren't retarded you should have understood that rudeus didn't actually went to the magic academy just for ed but also for researching about the teleportation event and to find hints about his mother. Everything wouldn't be fed to you. There are things you need to realise yourself. But oh no, you're retarded. 'Haters' like you always tries to distort the facts to their own comfort zone to prove their point.


Fourthly, what do you expect Sylphy to do in this situation. It is just because of her personality that she accepted this. It makes sense. If somebody else like eris was in her position, surely she wouldn't have accepted it. Norn didn't accept it. And yes, the author wanted to make a harem. That is why he made sylphy's character like that. What is wrong with that? You're saying harem animes shouldn't exist because it doesn't go along with your ideals? Well it doesn't go along with my ideals either. I remember getting angry at rudeus while reading these chapters. But guess what, polygamy still exists. And in the world of mushoku tensei polygamy is accepted except one country only. Okay i got a little bit sidetracked.

Anyways there's a lot of cases where in a fiction the immoral protagonist doesn't receive the consequences for his actions and these fictions are still called masterpieces. Now you might say those fictions don't glorify it. Did Mushoku tensei ever glorified it? No. If you assume that rudeus' action should be followed it's your problem. If you read a murder news and think to yourself, "what if i do that too?" Then it is you who's the problem. Again it's a story were a flawed person tries to be not flawed. Rudeus is flawed. He knows it and the author knows it.


I'm not saying you can't criticize it. But don't say the same invalid shit which has been debunked again and again. I'm not saying Mushoku tensei is perfect. Nothing is perfect. For example, i too didn't like how the author handled the situation with eris. That part is bad writing.

@ZeroMajor12 I understand exactly what you mean. But the thing is I'm not talking about criticizing the show in general or even the writing. I'm talking specifically about critquing a character's actions. The same Attack on Titan example you used is great. People criticize Eren a lot (even though he has his fair share of ardent defenders who claim he did nothing wrong as well), but that doesn't mean they hate the show or even hate what Eren's character brings to the story. The same can be said about a lot of people who critique Rudeus. But a lot of the time that critique is met with people insulting you and labeling you a hater of the show lol

@pielopelotta I agree with this. Most of the dialogue about MT from genuine haters is exhausting and petulant more often than not. That's not what this post is about though

@Zarutaku but couldn't you call an interpretation of a work, that can be proven to be wrong, miscommunication between the author and the reader? There fundamentally isn't a wrong reaction to any work, but if you have an interpretation that is based on assumptions that can be proven to be false, then that very much is miscommunication between the author and reader. While I am not going to assume any nefarious intention when I talk to people that share views that can be harmful, those views are still harmful nonetheless. It very much can be wrong to defend certain actions, it at least can be wrong from the perspective of common moral and believes. There is no such thing as a wrong opinion, but as soon as you put that opinion into words, it becomes its own thing, a thing that can be argued against, that can be proven to be false, and you very much are responsible for what you say. In that regard, defending morally wrong actions under the pretext of a narrative that only justifies them internally, is still wrong. What I am arguing against here, is a very specific kind of reading, which I just so happen to have seen a ton of, I am not trying to turn this into a general statement that affects everyone that wants to discuss Mushoku Tensei. If you are able to give a reading of a piece of fiction that is unambiguously morally wrong, a reading that was either ignored by the creator or was made intentionally, then that is a flaw. The obscurer the reading, the less this flaw matters, but it is a flaw nonetheless. There is no such thing as a perfect narrative, but there certainly are stories that share a lot more of these moral flaws than others. In the case of MT, this flaw breaks down to a lack of reason for the internal sexism of the world, or rather a lack of consequence. If you present an inherently sexist world that oppresses its people, you need to show how your characters are effected by that, you need to make it clear that sexism has an effect, if you don't do that, if you ignore the implications of your world and story, then you are being sexist and the same goes for excusing these things. Now, it is important to make clear, that we can have a discussion about this stuff, without one side needing to actually be sexist, you can discuss this in a non-harmful way, but for that you need to be open to the readings of other people, and that is exactly what I am critiquing. There are so, so many people that only care about internal consistency, that only look at narrative flaws, but stories are supposed to say something, in fact they always do, and the sad reality is that MT just fails to see some of this stuff. If you are given proof of a flaw that you fail to refute, then you need to be able to accept that part, if you want to have a nuanced and functional discussion, you need to be able to change your views and part of that comes down to seeing the flaws in media you love, because at the end of the day, MT is sexist, and excusing sexism under the rules of a fictional world, to ignore logic and reason by arguing for a version of the world that does not exist, for a moral code that nobody follows, that is also sexist.

I love Mushoku Tensei, it is a flawed show with so, so many problems I wish it didn't have, it is a show that gave me a sense of adventure like no other did, but no matter how dear it is to me, I will not ignore its flaws, because especially if you love this story, it is one to be approached critically, one to be questioned and thought about, both in the context of its many phenomenal lessons, but also in its sexism.

@SkyhighCFC Thanks for the reply and yes, I think people need to understand that you don't have to really justify or defend characters for every action deemed as morally wrong, because in the end they are still fictional, but as long as these characters continue to exist, these debates will always be sparked. If I were to bring up another example who got this kind of attention, I could say Itachi from Naruto (or maybe I'm wrong) or Shinji from Evangelion, back in the normie days. Because a lot of their actions were... confusing.



I think that depends on the fandom though. But doesn't every fandom have this kind of debate now and then? Defending characters for their bad actions and saying how it's all justified for the greater good? These debates are kind of the whole point when you feature morally ambiguous characters and the whole insulting people for hating the show is kind of a common approach when you have everyone saying the show is bad because of said character. The best option to avoid would be to ignore the criticism, but sometimes I just read them so that I can use those words for my own experience or reviews as well.

I feel like the worst part about Mushoku Tensei is that I can't speak about Mushoku Tensei or try to convince people to watch it because of the controversy it garnered for itself. Everything about it is being scrutinized to the last brim, and everyone just has answers to counter you for trying to watch the anime. It's a whole goddamn mess, bro.

@SkyhighCFC Yet, that's ultimately what the problem is. There's too much hate too have discussions about the moral complexities of the series.

@Lucianael Nah. Give me a TLDR to all this yapping, you're all over the damn place.

@LostSpectre I think the problem here then is that people need to stop jumping to conclusions, and instead, actually try to understand what the other party is trying to say rather than assuming they have some agenda.

@LostSpectre Here you go:

The logic of a story does not only need to be judged from an internal perspective, but also from the context of our reality. An example:

Let's say we have a narrative about a fictional setting in which all black people are evil by nature. One black person killed the protagonist's entire family, and now he is out for a quest of revenge, on which he will kill every single one of them.

That's it, there are no plot twists that "well actually, black people aren't evil", no, they really are in this fictional setting, I hope we can agree that this is a horrible story. The normal hero revenge thing though is completely fine, this is what I mean with internal logic, in the logic of the narrative, there is no actual mistake, but through the lens of reality, it is still obviously a deeply racist narrative. Now apply that line of logic to Mushoku Tensei, and we get to the problem that I was talking about. Simply put, I see too many people ignoring the context of reality and instead only justifying actions through the internal logic of the setting.

(Btw LostSpectre, you should probably ask for a TLDR instead of demanding one, I do not much care about you being rude, but other might and I don't think you should act like you are entitled to someone writing a TLDR for you)

Have a good one

@Lucianael Yeah, but you're ranting about sexism in a work targeted towards a male audience, so it really doesn't even apply. lol

@Malisa90 first of all, don't talk about the eris situation without reading the novel.


Secondly, you're talking about a complete different thing as i am. I addressed the most common 'criticism' I've seen. Which is the mc is a bad person, so the anime's bad. Which is wrong. Your argument talks about a complete different thing.

Thirdly, you're removing every good aspects and emphasizing on almost nonexistent bad aspects. If you weren't retarded you should have understood that rudeus didn't actually went to the magic academy just for ed but also for researching about the teleportation event and to find hints about his mother. Everything wouldn't be fed to you. There are things you need to realise yourself. But oh no, you're retarded. 'Haters' like you always tries to distort the facts to their own comfort zone to prove their point.


Fourthly, what do you expect Sylphy to do in this situation. It is just because of her personality that she accepted this. It makes sense. If somebody else like eris was in her position, surely she wouldn't have accepted it. Norn didn't accept it. And yes, the author wanted to make a harem. That is why he made sylphy's character like that. What is wrong with that? You're saying harem animes shouldn't exist because it doesn't go along with your ideals? Well it doesn't go along with my ideals either. I remember getting angry at rudeus while reading these chapters. But guess what, polygamy still exists. And in the world of mushoku tensei polygamy is accepted except one country only. Okay i got a little bit sidetracked.

Anyways there's a lot of cases where in a fiction the immoral protagonist doesn't receive the consequences for his actions and these fictions are still called masterpieces. Now you might say those fictions don't glorify it. Did Mushoku tensei ever glorified it? No. If you assume that rudeus' action should be followed it's your problem. If you read a murder news and think to yourself, "what if i do that too?" Then it is you who's the problem. Again it's a story were a flawed person tries to be not flawed. Rudeus is flawed. He knows it and the author knows it.


I'm not saying you can't criticize it. But don't say the same invalid shit which has been debunked again and again. I'm not saying Mushoku tensei is perfect. Nothing is perfect. For example, i too didn't like how the author handled the situation with eris. That part is bad writing.

Let's not bullshit ourselves, he got there because God told him to go and that his "problems" would be resolved, not because he strictly wanted to. Yes I AM removing every good aspect BECAUSE we are talking about Rudeus and his idiotic actions. That's the whole point of this thread! There are plenty of times where Rudeus did something good, but overall he's a shit person who did much more bad things than good. Also about morality if we were looking from a genuine person from this world most of these things wouldn't matter but Rudeus is NOT a native to this world. He grew up in our world with our morals, so him getting multiple wives is literally having a cake and eating it too.
Also your line about Sylphy is just LMAO. So let me get this straight If Eris was his first wife she would tell him to just fuck off and wouldn't let him/forgive him for taking Sylphie/Roxy as a second lover/wife. But hey she's "just" the third one so she can't complain at least she got something, right? This is the mindset of you people defending these characters. Also let's not forget all the other times where Rudeus straight up molested many female characters. But boys will be boys an I right fellows? The whole point is that he learned NOTHING from his actions. And you can't tell me that this is good writing because the WHOLE POINT of Rudeus was that he would go to redeem himself in this world for (in)actions that he did in our.

@SkyhighCFC It doesn't work like that when the VAST majority of people are moral grandstanding over fictional subject matters.

@SkyhighCFC "I've been legitimately attacked and insulted for saying "Rudeus cheating on Sylphie was bad actually" just as an example."

Well, that's a genuinely dumb take, because Roxy clearly took advantage of him, whether or not she had good intentions.