Missed opportunity

ktg said:

"I'm wrong because I quoted characters". XDDD
Literally every 5 yo's argument. :D

Okay, then as a conclusion. I'm not even surprised that you failed to understand most of the characters. That would also explain why you think JJK S2 is good while it was one of the weakest shounen season in recent years, even the latest KnY season was better.
So just because you keep repeating things, it won't become true, you won't be right. You failed to address any of my arguments which is impressive, because I made several points about your ideas.

FZREMAKE said:
@HeSaidArise If Itadori being flat is absurd then just imagine how preposterous it is to say that Tanjiro doesnt have human elements.

HeSaidArise said:

I didn't say that what. Did u see the fullstop? I said ur wrong and I didn't see the quote. In two different sentences. I'm implying u should tell me the quote and that I still don't agree with ur opinion.

ktg said:

I said twice already and you still failed to understand it. And btw, just because you separate 2 thoughts by a sentence, it can still connect to each other.

HeSaidArise said:

And majority of people on this app would disagree with you. I understand characters well enough trust me.

HeSaidArise said:

Ok but I didn't intend for it to connect to each other and I'm letting u know. If I wanted it to connect I would have used a conjunction or a semi colon or something. Bros where the quote can u use quotation marks pls.

ktg said:

It wasn't word by word, because Luffy said it after the fishmen island.
But, here's with quotation marks: "Heroes share their food, so I'm not a hero, I'm a pirate".
Like I said, I was talking about food, because that's how Luffy differentiated between selfish and selfless characters.

FZREMAKE said:
@HeSaidArise Thats fine but the thing is that the qualities you mentioned "Overly good" and stuff, arent they present in Yuji as well? Shouldnt that make him a flat character as well?

And what kind of a change are you expecting. He was kind who never thought about hurting other but he changed into a demon slayer. He was weak, but we can see him progressively becoming stronger every arc, becoming more determined every arc. The only thing that remains same is his motivation to slay demons and there is a slight change even in that motivation. His main goal was to cure nezuko, not revenge, Along the way when he met Muzan and learned more about the demons, his goal was not only to cure nezuko, but to defeat Upper ranks and Muzan. Thats again a good change. Nezuko can now speak and walk freely in day light as well, yet still he wants to defeat Muzan and put an end to all of this.
So let me ask this again, What kind of a change do you want from him and is it even worth it?

HeSaidArise said:
Slight spoilers if you haven't watched the last episode of DS. If you continue to read and you haven't watched the last episode, you would spoiling a plot twist for yourself.


It's obvious that Demon Slayer's biggest flaw is it's character writing and overall cast of characters. There are few exceptions like Rengoku, Gyutaro and Tengen but for the most part, the characters aren't bad but just very plain and boring with no depth. This is unfortunately true for the main character of this show, Tanjiro, he's a generic shonen protag with a generic goal to kill all demons and save his sister.

Ok, this gets me to my point. Spoilers for the last episode ———

I feel like Nezuko dying would have impacted the show far better. It's pretty obvious that while Tanjiro is a good person, his main reason for being a demon slayer is because he wants to find a way to save his sister, killing demons and getting revenge on Muzan take second stage to that. I feel if Nezuko died, it would have caused Tanjiro to now question why he should be a demon slayer since he has now lost his purpose for being a demon slayer.

So there's 2 options I thought on how Tanjiro's chara get would change because of Nezuko's demise.


1.
You could buckle down on the revenge route; Tanjiro could hunt down Muzan till he kills him. Maybe losing the caring and forgiving side of himself as he kills more and more demons to progress to Muzan. Seeing such a loving and innocent character turn cold, rage full and distant( like Thorfinn S1 but on a broader scale) would be great. It would just be a really good revenge story, since the audience would hate Muzan more since he basically caused the death of one of the beloved characters in the show. And also seeing Tanjiro change so drastically would be great. He wouldn't just be a fully good character now because even tho he is doing a good thing by killing demons and saving humans, he's doing it out of spite. You could parallel him and Shinobu together. Maybe show now that he has lost everything, the way he decided to deal with the death of the people he lost was through anger and distancing himef. Sure most of Tanjiro's family died before this but Nezuko gave him hope and held him together. Her dying and him losing his last remaining family would change him drastically. Although this version of Tanjiro is edgy, I know, but it's so different from what we have now, it would be refreshing. You bring back long hair Tanjiro and pair him up with the version of this character, I think that would be so sick.


2.
You could create friction in the relationship with him and Zenitsu since Zenitsu cares about Nezuko and you could make him blame Tanjiro for her death. Both Tanjiro and Zenitsu recognising that they are still weak in the sense that even with all the power they possess, they couldn't protect someone they loved(which would be good at this moment of time since they been killing incredibly strong demons) Maybe make both vow to become stronger so nothing like that could happen. So that they don't have to lose people, especially someone they are so connected to. Zenitsu losing someone he was that close to maybe the catalyst to him consciously unlocking his full potential( I haven't read the manga btw). This would be great for Zenitsu's character, he's annoying at times and is also sorta of plain. As for Tanjiro again, you make him question his purpose of now being a demon slayer. Rather than blaming Muzan for his sisters death, he would blame himself even though there's nothing he could do since Nezuko made the decision for him but Tanjiro feeling like that was his fault and calling himself weak is still reasonable. Eventually Tanjiro still remains a demon slayer and now his main reason for kiling demons and Muzan would be to not let other people feel the pain he felt when he lost everything. So now he has purpose for being a demon slayer. That's character depth.

I feel both arcs would connect helo people connect to Tanjiro a lot more. Tanjiro never really had human elements in his character so this would make him seem more real. Even if none of these arcs were to be carried out thorough Tanjiro, just him grieving at the fact that Nezuko is dead makes him seem real. He didn't even do that when his family died in S1. It looked he moved on so quickly. Nezuko dying could potentially fix that flaw in his character.

Also this would impact the DS community for more. Nezuko, unlike the other characters who died, before this season and in the future, has been there from the beginning. Most character that have died don't have the same amount of screen time as Nezuko who's basically a main character. You kill her off, that's a lot more impact of the DS fanbase and makes Demon Slayer look very unpredictable and slightly move away from that 'generic' status.

So in my opinion, if Nezuko died, you have huge insane plot twist no one expected, chance to give depth to Tanjiro and possibly even Zenitsu, and overall greater impact on the DS fanbase. I understand Nezuko not dying was important cuz it gave Muzan more of a reason to target Tanjiro and Nezuko but he already was. So this seems like the better option. There's probably even more options that could have been taken if Nezuko died. Unfortunately none of that happened since she didn't. Anyways, is that an L take or nah? I feel like I'm the minority who feels this way😭😭

FZREMAKE said:
@HeSaidArise Aight this is stupid. What are Tanjiros's beliefs or his goals? Is there any reason for him to change his goal? No, but still his goal changes a bit. All his frustration and anger came into the spotlight when he confronted Muzan. He remembers the scent and he declared his hatred towards him. He had revenge in his mind when he said he will find and kill him. Is that reason not good enough.
How is he not tested? Family died, sister turned demon, had to give up his daily life to fight demons, always on the brink of death making friends in the corps and seeing them die, noticing how powerless he is and a new threat always comes his way. Its more like his goals and determination is tested every step yet still he remains determined. That's more than good enough don't you think. His belief was to cure nezuko but now that nezuko is more or less cured, he has no reason to fight. Then why does he do so? Because his beliefs and goals have changed. He has to fight Muzan and put an end to this. This is another change. I just can't see the problem in this. In no way does this make a character flat.

Itadori was tested and so was tanjiro. How did he view the curses before? He hated them before too. Mahito killed his friend and he has to constantly fight against evil curses. Besides, the concept of curses is different from demons who were once humans so the way he views them is different as well. "Blamed himself for crimes he did not commit". Don't we see that with tanjiro as well every time a demon kills or hurts other humans. That's not a good point to mention.

HeSaidArise said:

Ok I still don't think Luffy is selfish because he doesn't want to share food. Yh he's saying he's a pirate and not a hero and all but Luffy would never hurt or steal for an innocent person. He wouldn't do stuff for his own self interest if it put everyone at risk except it absolutely disgusted him and its an injustice, like in saobody where he slapped that guy(whatever they're called ) cause he was discriminating against someone innocent but bro u think generic shonen protags are selfish but they aren't

Generic shonen protags are just truly good, will do anything for their friends and family, perverted and has an OP skill
e.g, Meliodias, Natsu

Luffy is not generic cuz he laid the groundwork for these sort of characters alongside Naruto and Ichigo. You can't call something that popularised a character generic when they were the first to perfect it.

Tanjiro is generic cuz he quite literally fits the bill for this except he's just really kind and isn't perverted.

HeSaidArise said:

@FZREMAKE
Aight this should be the last time we argue bout this. A flat character is someone who throughout a story does change. Their personality, their beliefs and ideals never change. Their beliefs and motivation can be tested but it will never change. Here's my issue. Tanjiro is a flat character but never has anything happen to him which makes him question his beliefs from the beginning of story. You could say ,"what about the death of his family at the hands of a demon? That should make him hate demons" Yet we never see Tanjiro question that which is strange(because a normal person would be angry—one person I felt Tanjiro was unrealistic, in fact he felt pity for the demon). This is the very first episode, however, and we know little about Tanjiro until the second ep where we see how kind he really is by refusing to kill a demon that he is not related to. So sure his beliefs are tested but we don't even know his beliefs yet so r we supposed to know they are being tested when we still don't know much bout Tanjiro. Hopefully u understood what I said. And its lowkey bad writing the author didn't even let Tanjiro question the way he feels towards demons now after they killed his family. That's not how an actual person would behave. You can infer that maybe due to his sister now becoming a demon and also being his remaining family member left he still keeps that kind nature to them especially due to his experience with his sister and the fact that he understands that these demons were once people
I'm rambling. Tanjiro is a flat character sure but he never develops. That's the issue. He never develops cuz Tanjiro never has his beliefs tested during Demon Slayer when we do know what he is like.
Now, what I hoped for with the death of Nezuko would be for Tanjiros beliefs to be tested. It doesn't matter if he becomes edgy or remains the same. The fact would be he went through internal conflict and therefore got character development.
I didn't need to see a change, I needed to see development, something Tanjiro lacks because not once(when we acc get an idea of what Tanjiro is like) does what he believes get tested. Nezuko was the perfect opportunity to change that.

Itadori is not a flat character and is not generic. He starts off like that(generic wise)
Incredible sense of justice
Will protect family and friends no matter what
Has special power(sukuna)

But Itadori, unlike Tanjiro, gets his beliefs tested throughout s2 with the constant demise of people he regarded incredibly close to him. The events of Shibuya led him to change the way he views curses, the struggle between sorcerer and curse and his role in it. All this led to the "I'm you" speech, where we see Itadori has changed completely. Itadori S1 is vastly different Itadori S2
As you will see in Culling Games, these events have a huge impact of Itadoris psyche(even tho Gege doesn't explore it that much). In one scene, probably my favourite scene in JJK, Itadori blames himself for a crime he did not commit when blaming himself caused his life to be in danger. In no way is Itadori a flat character but Tanjiro is.

ktg said:

I've read only the first because it was so fkn stupid take that I have to reply.
No, normal human beings don't start hating on whole races, because murdering someone's family can be done by humans too. If your whole family is murdered by a human, you won't start hating on humans. So the normal behaviour is when you don't hate on races.
And no, being flat has nothing to do with changes. A non-flat character who can be the same during the whole series, but has depth. Like things, dislike other things, have a past, have ideologies etc.

So no, you are, again, wrong on multiple levels and you don't even know how humans behave.

ktg said:

Lol, you don't even know what selfish means.... You are saying that - as an argument - that he wouldn't steal... That's not necessarily selfish behaviour and there are people who don't steal.
But yes, Luffy is indeed selfish. He decides based on his own logic even if it could cause harm to his crew. Like how he always chooses the "more interesting" route on the log pose. That's also a selfish behaviour.
Or how in the first 50 episodes everyone "forced" to join his crew, while in reality at first all of them declined.

And no, generic MC is not just helpful, but goofy or stupid, usually has inner power for no reason that makes him exceptional and selfish. So yes, for example Natsu is like that. This type originated from Goku and had many iterations, but Tanjiro, Deku or Itadori aren't one of them.
But "sadly", Tanjiro isn't. He doesn't have an inner power that others can't acquire. He's not selfish, he's selfless. And he's not stupid. Like I said, Zenitsu is closer to being the generic MC type. Tanjiro types came from Kenshin, but even he had some generic aspects.

And again, these are facts. Tanjiro being based on Kenshin was also admitted by the author. So you are arguing with facts.

HeSaidArise said:
Slight spoilers if you haven't watched the last episode of DS. If you continue to read and you haven't watched the last episode, you would spoiling a plot twist for yourself.


It's obvious that Demon Slayer's biggest flaw is it's character writing and overall cast of characters. There are few exceptions like Rengoku, Gyutaro and Tengen but for the most part, the characters aren't bad but just very plain and boring with no depth. This is unfortunately true for the main character of this show, Tanjiro, he's a generic shonen protag with a generic goal to kill all demons and save his sister.

Ok, this gets me to my point. Spoilers for the last episode ———

I feel like Nezuko dying would have impacted the show far better. It's pretty obvious that while Tanjiro is a good person, his main reason for being a demon slayer is because he wants to find a way to save his sister, killing demons and getting revenge on Muzan take second stage to that. I feel if Nezuko died, it would have caused Tanjiro to now question why he should be a demon slayer since he has now lost his purpose for being a demon slayer.

So there's 2 options I thought on how Tanjiro's chara get would change because of Nezuko's demise.


1.
You could buckle down on the revenge route; Tanjiro could hunt down Muzan till he kills him. Maybe losing the caring and forgiving side of himself as he kills more and more demons to progress to Muzan. Seeing such a loving and innocent character turn cold, rage full and distant( like Thorfinn S1 but on a broader scale) would be great. It would just be a really good revenge story, since the audience would hate Muzan more since he basically caused the death of one of the beloved characters in the show. And also seeing Tanjiro change so drastically would be great. He wouldn't just be a fully good character now because even tho he is doing a good thing by killing demons and saving humans, he's doing it out of spite. You could parallel him and Shinobu together. Maybe show now that he has lost everything, the way he decided to deal with the death of the people he lost was through anger and distancing himef. Sure most of Tanjiro's family died before this but Nezuko gave him hope and held him together. Her dying and him losing his last remaining family would change him drastically. Although this version of Tanjiro is edgy, I know, but it's so different from what we have now, it would be refreshing. You bring back long hair Tanjiro and pair him up with the version of this character, I think that would be so sick.


2.
You could create friction in the relationship with him and Zenitsu since Zenitsu cares about Nezuko and you could make him blame Tanjiro for her death. Both Tanjiro and Zenitsu recognising that they are still weak in the sense that even with all the power they possess, they couldn't protect someone they loved(which would be good at this moment of time since they been killing incredibly strong demons) Maybe make both vow to become stronger so nothing like that could happen. So that they don't have to lose people, especially someone they are so connected to. Zenitsu losing someone he was that close to maybe the catalyst to him consciously unlocking his full potential( I haven't read the manga btw). This would be great for Zenitsu's character, he's annoying at times and is also sorta of plain. As for Tanjiro again, you make him question his purpose of now being a demon slayer. Rather than blaming Muzan for his sisters death, he would blame himself even though there's nothing he could do since Nezuko made the decision for him but Tanjiro feeling like that was his fault and calling himself weak is still reasonable. Eventually Tanjiro still remains a demon slayer and now his main reason for kiling demons and Muzan would be to not let other people feel the pain he felt when he lost everything. So now he has purpose for being a demon slayer. That's character depth.

I feel both arcs would connect helo people connect to Tanjiro a lot more. Tanjiro never really had human elements in his character so this would make him seem more real. Even if none of these arcs were to be carried out thorough Tanjiro, just him grieving at the fact that Nezuko is dead makes him seem real. He didn't even do that when his family died in S1. It looked he moved on so quickly. Nezuko dying could potentially fix that flaw in his character.

Also this would impact the DS community for more. Nezuko, unlike the other characters who died, before this season and in the future, has been there from the beginning. Most character that have died don't have the same amount of screen time as Nezuko who's basically a main character. You kill her off, that's a lot more impact of the DS fanbase and makes Demon Slayer look very unpredictable and slightly move away from that 'generic' status.

So in my opinion, if Nezuko died, you have huge insane plot twist no one expected, chance to give depth to Tanjiro and possibly even Zenitsu, and overall greater impact on the DS fanbase. I understand Nezuko not dying was important cuz it gave Muzan more of a reason to target Tanjiro and Nezuko but he already was. So this seems like the better option. There's probably even more options that could have been taken if Nezuko died. Unfortunately none of that happened since she didn't. Anyways, is that an L take or nah? I feel like I'm the minority who feels this way😭😭

HeSaidArise said:

you wouldn't hate a race that actively murders ur kind and is clearly evil ok? And if this sounds stupid, then tell me why Shinobu literally despises demons for the same reason ffs. BTW this is in the context of Demon Slayer omg don't twist my words
Yes because actual humans aren't hateful and spiteful and it's all sunshine and rainbows.
Pls stop twisting my words I've been respectful throughout the argument show me the same respect pls. If you don't understand what I mean ask me bro.

HeSaidArise said:

Yh u make valid points Luffy is selfish he does selfish actions u right. But he will put down his life for those he cares about or just an innocent person so that makes him selfless

I cannot be bothered to read the rest of this genuinely just stop arguing with me u won I'm wrong I'm sry for sharing a take because freedom of speech is not allowed goddamn. I genuinely cannot be asked to argue with u anymore. Bro it's 4 we've been at it for like 4-5 hrs now. Isn't that sad?
And if you say "Oh you shouldn't have shared your stupid take without expecting people to retort" then bro ur acc sad. I was OK with us arguing but bro you dragged it.

ktg said:

Sorry, but freedom of speech does not mean you can say anything freely. Why do you think the laws ban hateful speech? There are things that don't fall into the freedom of speech category.
And again, defending your friends - which is self interest - isn't selfless. And if we established that someone is selfish, then we couldn't say that he is also selfless, because defends his friends.
Tanjiro and Deku wouldn't act like Luffy. They would consider their friends conditions. Like how Tanjiro was concerned when Uzui got poisoned or when Deku, Todoroki and Iida were fighting Stain.

HeSaidArise said:

But ur life on the line for a person you don't know is. And luffy did that in saoboady

ktg said:

Which still isn't being selfless. At least definitely not on the same scale where Tanjiro sits. Tanjiro even respects and accepts his enemies and that was the whole point of his character.
And actually that's why others mentioned that even killing Nezuko wouldn't change much. The demons already killed his whole family, one more kill wouldn't change a single thing.

ktg said:

It is also true for animals and people don't hate them. It is not twisting your words, your words are just plain stupid.
Like bears, lions, crocodiles etc all eat humans and still we don't hate them. And btw, in that aspect demons are similar, because they eat to survive.

HeSaidArise said:

But ur life on the line for a person you don't know is. And luffy did that in saoboady

FZREMAKE said:
@HeSaidArise It's true that we will forget about this but let me enjoy until I can. If your definition of a flat character is the one whose belief change or is being tested and shit then your wrong. I just proved in multiple ways how tanjiro changed and how he is tested but you keep denying it for some reason.

Itadori's view of curses doesn't change the fact that he is still flat. Oh his view changed which isn't even portrayed up till now. That makes him such a wonderful character. Sounds stupid to me.
Tanjiro doesn't show kindness to every demon now does he. He didn't show kindness to Enmu or Upper 4. Tanjiro blames himself for the destruction and deaths of multiple people he witnessed because he considered himself weak and powerless. Itadori felt bad because he couldn't control sukuna which led sukuna to destroy the city. Two completely different scenarios hence his guilt is more justified. Blaming oneself for this shit ain't making him a good character now is it.

oeyuu_ said:
this thread is peak cinema