[Organisational] Club Feedback

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May 2015

241

Just a gentle reminder that this thread exists. If you have any complaints, concerns, suggestions of any kind, put them here. A fellow admin or I will address it as a formal complaint (rather than how we might address it in Discord).

Nov 10, 2018 12:09 PM

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May 2015

241

State of the Club Address

Hello! I'm really touched by the amount of people who are interested in applying for administrative duties for the club. I thought it'd be best to address the concerns and issues in an address to all of you.

The Administration. With 5 members in the Administration we currently have enough manpower to oversee most issues, outside of some specific tasks which will be detailed below. Believe it or not, a lot of the work we do tends to be behind the scenes. A lot of debate goes into each and every topic to ensure that we only make the decision that we believe is best for the club. That doesn't necessarily mean that we're not accepting any new admins, as we're reviewing applications right now.

In my personal opinion, I would like to maintain an odd number of admins to be able to break tiebreakers, but also feel like introducing 4 new admins may lead to a "too many chefs in the kitchen" issue. If you don't get accepted, it may be because of that. With that said, note that we still attempt to prioritize individuals that have contributed to the club in some way or have demonstrated the drive/ability to be a decent admin.

Overseeing Missions. As of right now I am looking at creating an intermediate group, possibly called "Overseers". This group would be people who have shown their ability to conduct missions successfully and are interested in helping other people create and conduct missions. The reason why we would do this is because currently, only admins can oversee missions. By opening up the ability to oversee missions to the entire group, more missions can be created and completed.

The Story. We're in a weird spot with the story now, and I feel like this is a topic we could use community opinion on. The administration is split staying between faithful to the old established lore as possible OR taking more freedom in what we do with the story and lore. I personally fall under the category of the latter- I believe that with Rozen gone we have no reason to continue through the lore as he has established it. After all, as the IC clock ticks, the story must continue. However, other admins argue that we should keep it as faithful to the old lore as possible, and we are currently in a deadlock. This is where I would like public opinion to come in- what do you guys think?

Mechanics. Unfortunately as a story-&-lore based admin, I'm not an expert on the mechanics of the club. However, note that any time a mechanic is changed, there is heavy debate on the subject, often lasting for more than a couple hours. Very rarely does a vote go through cleanly unless it is obvious that it is for the benefit for the club and for all members of the club.

Future Addresses. I plan on making more "State of the Addresses" in the future- hopefully getting other admins to make their own Addresses so that it's not completely Tuba biased. I believe that by doing so we establish more clarity between the administration and the club in general, and allows for clearer discourse about what the members of the club want and do not want. Once again, this is where public opinion comes in. Is this address useful? Should we do more in the future?

Please feel free to write your thoughts below. The more feedback, the better.

Tuba

Nov 20, 2018 6:43 PM

HeiJ

Offline

Aug 2013

1250

[Idea]: Ranged Weaponry Rework

Reasoning

Melee weapons have an efficient, low cost damage option in the form of basic attacks: at 5 stamina cost, a melee weapon can deal 10 base physical damage plus an additional 5 for each strength rank. This can prove to be an useful tool to finish off weakened enemies, being essentially a low cost low damage skill that doesn't take up a skill slot.

Meanwhile, ranged weapons have damage equal 1.5 times an arbitrary prana cost, with no scaling whatsoever. To get the equivalent of one attack at D strength (free at E rank with Warrior), one would need to spend 10 prana per projectile.

Taking in comparison the cost for a 15 damage basic attack:
An E rank skill with 5 stamina cost makes for a 17.5 damage skill, which is about the same damage as one D rank strength basic attack (free with Warrior).
Meanwhile, you could get a 25 damage skill with 10 prana, which is almost double of what you could deal with a 10 prana ranged basic attack.

It's easy to notice ranged weapons have basic attacks that are quite worse than those of melee weapons, to the point where using them is basically never worth it. Thus, I think that ranged weapons could use some love!

One possible fix

After discussing it with Sho for a while, we came up with some initial design ideas for ranged weapon each weapon type:

Standard mechanics: Each basic attack with a ranged weapon would cost 5 prana to use. This is a little bit higher than the melee's 5 stamina, but the extra cost would make up for the attacks being ranged. Each attack gets a fixed amount of base damage based on the weapon type, as well as some specific mechanics:

Magical Weapons (staves, wands, grimoires, etc): Each projectile deals 10 base magical damage per hit, with an additional 5 magical damage for each rank in Willpower, and travels at base C rank speed. Hitrate would be fixed as well. (1~2 hits per phase?)

Guns: Those have no stat to scale off of, which makes things trickier to balance. So as to not make them overpowered at lower ranks and underpowered at higher ranks, making the bonus damage scale with SOUL rank as well seems like a good idea.
As there are many different types of guns, we think that they deserve individual treatment based on gun type, just like it works now. Each gun type gets its own base damage per projectile, bonus damage per projectile per rank, rate of fire, projectile speed and travel pattern. The overall goal is to make them deal around the same DPS as the rest of the weapons.

Example:
Assault Rifle:
Damage per projecile: 4 damage (+1 per SOUL rank past E)
Rate of Fire: 2 per phase (3 per shot)
Projectile Speed: C⭡
Pattern: Linear

That's around 24 damage per phase at 10 prana cost, which seems pretty similar to the damage per phase one could pull off with a melee weapon.

Physically scaling ranged weapons (bows, boomerangs, etc): 15 base physical damage, with +5 bonus damage for each SOUL rank past E. Projectile speed scales with strength, and attack speed scales as usual (user speed/rec vs enemy speed/rec).

This is just a suggestion of how to balance things out, so don't give the numbers too much attention; the general concept is what counts here.

HeiJNov 20, 2018 6:54 PM

Dec 9, 2018 3:39 PM

Offline

Mar 2016

682

@HeiJ

Late reply, sorry.

Thank you! This is a wonderful suggestion; one we have long wanted to change but couldn't really figure out how to go about. I'm happy to inform you that your suggestion has provided the framework for our renewed efforts to develop ranged AGs. While we aren't yet ready to release these changes, I just thought I ought to drop in and briefly update you about your idea being used.

Once again, thank you for your suggestion. I hope you’ll be satisfied with the answer we are preparing, and I look forward to hearing any more ideas you might have.

Dec 19, 2018 9:37 PM

Offline

May 2015

241

Analysis of Aeternia's Main Plotline

Analysis / Opinion

(Note: Blue highlighted text is a link)

Purpose of this Post:

One of the most important factors in any storymaking process is figuring out how to make the story compelling. One of the differences between a good story and a bad story is how the audience reacts to it; a bad story bores the audience, while a good story is exciting and keeps the audience interested in what's next to come. So, what makes a story good?

One way is to make your protagonist compelling. Since the protagonist is the one your story revolves around, its pretty logical that making your protagonist interesting makes your story interesting as well, right? However, in terms of main plotline of Aeternia, making the protagonist compelling is something that the individual has little control over. The protagonists in the case of Aeternia Story are the player characters as a collective; we only have control over the characters we create. I don't believe there's much we can do about this. Even when it comes to personal conflicts and personal protagonists (which would ten be each individual player character), there are issues. Player characters come and go; character arcs are established and then broken as real-life conflicts plague our RPers. If this is the case, then what if we focused on the conflict instead?

In this video essay (The Dark Knight Spoilers, 11 mins), screenwriter Michael Tucker makes a case for why the Joker was the ultimate antagonist in Christopher Nolan's the Dark Knight. I heavily agree with his points and criteria used to judge what can be considered "the ultimate antagonist" for any given story. If we define the protagonists of Aeternia's main plotline to be Astraea SOULs, and the antagonists to be Eden, we can judge whether or not our RP fits said criteria. I'll be providing explanations for my analysis for the main plotline and giving advice on how to best fit the criteria in any given mission one might be interested in making.

1) A protagonist and his/her story can only be as intellectually fascinating and emotionally compelling as the forces of antagonism make them.

The more powerful the antagonist, the harder the struggle for the hero. The harder the struggle, the more compelling the story. Powerful in this context does not necessarily mean physical strength or intelligence, but relies on factors that are explored in later criteria.

Aeternia Main Plot Application: The conflict of the story is between Eden and Astraea. (CS are not the antagonist, see criteria 4 for explanation). Eden NPCs are much more powerful than the Astraea PCs as of right now, and the main conflict, "Can Astraea PCs beat Eden NPCs?" is not one that can be immediately answered with a "simple Yes" or "No". Eden is a strong antagonist for the protagonist, the Astraean Player Characters, to go up against.

Aeternia Mission Application: The conflict of any general mission is "Can Astraean SOULs complete this mission to the criteria given"? It's an incredibly general statement for an incredibly general range of antagonists vs an incredibly general range of protagonists. This constrains any compelling story possible during a mission unless the correct protagonist decides to go on it. For example, a physically strong yet emotionally unintelligent SOUL, decorated for his many achievements, attends a mission which requires them to navigate through a delicate political meeting as a representative of the company. The general mission question of "Can the SOUL complete the mission?" would then hopefully turn into "Can the SOUL overcome his emotional unintelligence in order to best represent the company?", the latter of which is a far more engaging, specific, and personal conflict.

2) A powerful antagonist is an opponent who is exceptionally good at attacking the hero’s greatest weakness.

Examples:

Aeternia Main Plot Application: This one is hard to define: What are the Astraea Player Character's main strength? I would state two factors: #1 Respawning & #2 Being tied to a corporate figure with some modicum of socioeconomic influence. Does Eden turn these into weaknesses somehow? It could be argued that Eden matches point #1 through respawning soldiers of their own, but what about point #2?

There are ways we can make Eden counter Astraea's strengths, but the plans I've considered are unattainable for a multitude of reasons, and the plans that attainable I'm abstaining from putting in this post in case I decide to use them later. Examples of unattainable counters include:

Eden countering #1 through a permanent death effect. Unattainable for obvious OOC reasoning. It'd be unfair to have a character deletion mechanic without roleplayer consent. A character deletion mechanic with roleplayer consent or with immediate and universal counterplay may still be on the table, although it would be hard to justify.
Eden countering #1 & #2 through a successful invasion of Yvalia. This would force Astraea to relocate HQ to a hopefully less affluent location, upping the stakes. This would cause the loss of financial assets and the respawn point for SOULs in Yvalia until Yvalia is recaptured. Unattainable as the invasion of Yvalia would require Player Characters to interact in what may feel like a rehash of the previous invasion, and have their effort amount to nothing in the end.

In summary, no, Eden does not currently counter Astraea's strengths. However, there may be ways that Eden can do so that are as of right now unexplored.

Aeternia Mission Application: This is immediately unattainable due to the nature of most missions being an opt-in experience, outside of a few high-stakes urgent missions. It's impossible to have your antagonist be able to adapt to counter each individual SOUL that may attend your mission. My suggestion is to take your original idea and mold it in such a way that it could counter the SOULs that end up signing up for your mission. For example, if your mission is one that requires the SOULs escort a VIP to a point, and the SOULs that register are all lawful-good protector types, you might consider making your VIP more shady or villainous than originally intended to pose the question of "What if the escort is not worth protecting?" (Of course, most SOULs will complete the mission anyways because of the IC and OOC incentives, but its still an interesting conflict to pose within the confines of the story).

3) True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure – the greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation and the truer the choice is to the character’s essential nature.

Examples:

Aeternia Main Plot Application: The collective protagonist isn't one that can easily make choices. Under pressure, I'd assume the player character SOULs would follow the orders of a higher up. Currently, Eden has not currently executed any actions that revealed Astraea's or the PC SOUL's true nature- all they've done so far is introduce themselves and their goals. As the protectors of Yvalia, choosing to defend it is a given (outside of the two that defected). There are possible ways to create scenarios where individual teams or even individual SOULs to reveal their true nature, but I'm withholding on providing possible examples in case I decide to use them later.

Aeternia Mission Application: Be careful with this! If RPers think that the situation you put their characters in is unfair, they're more likely to complain OOC than attempt to solve it in character. A good way of doing this is giving any said character a hard choice that has been forecasted beforehand- for example, a hostage situation mission is alright, since it forecasts the high stakes before the mission starts and allows for the RPers who are not okay with such high stakes to avoid it. If somehow a pet rescue mission turns into one deciding the fate of half the city, that's pretty unfair to the people who signed up.

4) It is only by competing for the same goal that the hero and the opponent are forced to come into direct conflict and to do so again and again throughout the story.

This one's the most simple one to explain and demonstrate. If the protagonist and antagonist are not competing for the same goal, they're not actually each other's respective protagonist and antagonist.

Examples

Aeternia Main Plot Application: Eden and Astraea are competing for the fate of the world: Eden wants to eradicate chaos by eliminating the people draining the natural prana from the world, while Astraea wants to eradicate chaos by upholding the status quo. Both have the same goal but conflicting versions of them. The CS are the instrument in which both interact with each other. Eden attempts to destroy the major sentient races through them, while Astraea attempts to eradicate them. In this way, the CS are not actually the antagonist of the main plotline, but rather play the role of a major factor of the setting the conflict takes place in.

Aeternia Mission Application: This one will naturally occur as a part of the mission. If there is a mission to be done, there will be an antagonist for the players to defeat. Even in a minor mission like washing the dishes for an feeble and senile old lady, or delivering pizza across the city, there's some force of antagonism that your mission-goers will have to overcome. Whether or not you want to have a more comedic, light-hearted mission or a more serious mission that forces your mission-goers to truly question their decisions is up to you.

Ending Comments: I require feedback PLEASE NOTICE ME

Do you want missions/plotlines that are high-stakes in scale or high-stakes personally? Do you want to avoid conflict altogether? Do you think there should be more missions that cause impactful character decisions? Do you think that this entire post was a waste of your and my time?

Although a lot of the things I said may concern some parties, please note that I do not want to do anything that the group does not collectively want. I made this post in the hopes that an earnest discussion about the direction of the club's story and any future arcs might come to light. The feedback I gain from anyone will directly influence what I act and argue for in the administration, assuming it comes with good reasoning and ethical standing.

Dec 20, 2018 12:10 AM

Offline

Mar 2016

682

"Do you want missions/plotlines that are high-stakes in scale or high-stakes personally?"

Y E S !

"Do you think there should be more missions that cause impactful character decisions?"

Y E S !

"Do you think that this entire post was a waste of your and my time?"
Yes, but only because I'm pretty sure I already mentioned to you my desire for this in admin chat or pms or something.

Anyway, more seriously, I agree with many of the points you made. When it comes to the protagonists, obviously, the players try to make their characters interesting (in their own, various ways), but real life causes issues. Case in point being my own recent relative absence for like 2 weeks. As an admin, I too am working towards having more compelling antagonists and situations, but I confess, I am still rather inexperienced when it comes to writing plots and antagonists and whatnot, not to mention that I can only do so much at once. As I have player characters that I care about and would like to see involved in such situations, I hope that you'll be working towards these goals as well.

Your second point is the one that troubles me most as an admin, mostly because of how accurate it is. Its difficult to do a plot such as the ones you mentioned for Eden, given the natural OOC problems they pose. And when it comes to trying to adapt a mission to the specific team, you run into other issues. "Am I ok with changing a character I already made in such a way?" "Have I established anything that would make a change difficult to believe?" "Would such a change even work on this team?" Not to mention the relatively low number of missions we've had so far with characters as antagonists; its harder to have moral dilemmas like the protecting shady VIP one when nearly everything thus far has been just about hunting and killing some CS.

The third point tangents off what I just mentioned; we haven't had enough conflict with other characters yet. Yes, we (the collective) could have done more so far with the missions we've had, but as it stands Aeternia is developmentally quite young. Despite having spent two years here, the storyline is still quite young, we have only just introduced our main character enemies, etc. I think part of the issue stems from what you said: people are more likely to complain OOC than to solve something IC. There are some ideas for missions and whatnot that I've come up with and then promptly thrown in the trash simply because I'm not willing to deal with the inevitable backlash even if it would make an interesting story. That being said, there are some other missions that I've decided I'm going to do whether or not there will be a backlash because, when it comes down to it, I think it'll be interesting and I'm a sadist who wants to watch your characters squirm and suffer.

On that note, I have to admit that I take a bit of issue with your encouragement of giving notice about a serious situation. While yes, a pet rescue shouldn't lead to a trolley problem involving 1/4 or 3/4 of Yvalia, and yes, something like a hostage situation serves as its own warning, but I personally don't like the idea of always warning people of a hard choice. No matter the situation, if people have knowledge OOC then it will to some extent affect the way they behave IC. It could be as simple as taking advantage of an idea their character might not have thought of so quickly IC, to as drastic as making their character decide to just not go on the mission. While I respect that people want to have fun and that everyone's fun differs, it shouldn't be necessary to forecast that there'll be something physically/emotionally/morally trying in your mission, especially if its intended as a plot twist.

Taking your earlier example of escorting a villainous person, we to some extent have Cupcake's escort mission. In the end, it turned out that the guy was smuggling drugs, making him a "villainous character". Had that knowledge come out earlier in the mission, like while they were still on the road, it could've led to an exciting moral dilemma of whether they're obligated to complete their mission, whether they should just abandon him, etc, but that is something I would consider a "hard choice". If there's something like that designed as a plot twist, then needing it to be publicized is frustrating to me. Such knowledge would make people more suspicious OOC about what will happen, potentially leading to undue suspicion IC, and other issues like that.

Its not quite an example of a hard choice, but a situation this reminds me of is one of the by-now-infamous debacles that happened in the olden days of Aeternia, just before the first death of the club. We had a tournament that culminated in Eden's appearance and the release of numerous CS into the city. This was definitely a surprise; even the admins didn't know about it. But then we admins were essentially commanded to each take control of groups of CS, there was much OOC conflict about all sorts of things, yadda yadda yadda, everything fell apart, and so on. Once my personal anger from having a surprise so massive dropped on me faded, I began to enjoy the concept of what was happening. Here was a situation that could test my characters; a frantic struggle to save the city, the appearance of an "evil" force, all that good stuff. But OOC, it was still a major problem; this struck with zero warning and with a situation so large-scale that people were forced to join even though it came right after the tournament that had been excessively long and during the festival that was preventing other missions from happening etc etc.

The point I am tangentially getting around to is that, despite how we felt, it was a good event idea. To some extent, this serves as fuel for your claim that we need to give warning about major stuff, because we did need more warning than we got. But I respect Minarei's desire to keep us in the dark, even if she unintentionally took it too far. Like I said, I was super stoked about the idea of the dramatic invasion, but if I had known that there was going to be a major event like this, my hype might have been smaller when the event finally came to pass. I'm rambling at this point, so basically, it depends on the situation, but I personally favor surprise over heads-up.

Fourth point is quite similar to what I said first. Though I'd like to see the pizza-delivering mission that makes me truly question my decisions.

All in all, this is a good topic to discuss, so thanks for bringing it up. I speak only for myself, of course, but I hope my opinion helps you make your decisions. To everyone else, I also value your opinions, but I'm not as nice as Tuba, so expect some warningless suffering from time to time when I'm involved.

you really enjoyed The Dark Knight, didn't you?

Dec 20, 2018 1:19 AM

Elvario

Offline

Aug 2014

939

There's a lot I wanted to point out, but halfway through my essay I realised it all boils down to a single point.

The plot doesn't really develop fast enough in this club to work on all these things. We're two years into the club, and we're only at the stage we are right now. The antagonists were introduced, and that's about it. If you want to really work on these points, you'd need to change the way time and events progress through-out Aeternia. Building antagonists that are able to live up to these standards takes time, and that's not always a given. (Don't say 'they're so strong, they're all A rank' but show how strong they are by defeating a bunch of opponents through tactics and brute force, yet doing so takes time.)

Most of what you've written works for books and movies, but doesn't easily translate into the RP setting. While I think they are points worth keeping in mind, I'm personally more of a mindset that we shouldn't hold them up as a golden standard.

To give an example; I've had no real antagonist for my request, and the antagonistic forces weren't exactly strongly developed, yet Inaru and Byakugaran seemed to have enjoyed it. It's based a relatively simple, yet entertaining thing that you can do within an RP and not within a book; you can go 'off-plot or 'off-script' by seeing what people will react to, and what gets ignored. If you focus too much on adding the golden rules, you might gloss over the golden opportunities, so to say.

Furthermore, I personally just don't like Eden. No matter how powerful or threatening they are, they feel like a bunch of asshats that were dropped into this club for the sake of being there. It's like a stupefied guerrilla version of Greenpeace. Yes, we know climate change will fuck up our world, but should we decide to just start killing everyone like we're Thanos to solve it? That's basically Eden in a nutshell. Mana usage will fuck up Gaea, so let's kill those whom use Mana. No matter how clear their reasoning, it's just too easy to say 'fuck that shit, let's desperately find another way or something'. It's what we're doing IRL, and we're not even putting much effort into finding that other way to solve climate change, for that matter. (That's another rant though.)

Here's a though; what if Eden targets only the ways through which you harvest Mana? It might put half the world back into the Dark Ages, but it would solve most of the issues. It's also a bit more easy to follow along with that reasoning. From there, you can have them counter Astrea's strengths. Take down the recourse Astraea summons SOULs with, and part of their income an whatnot.

That said, even if they are made more comprehensible, I still heavily doubt they'll ever be of interest to me. That's probably the main crux. You have multiple people working missions, and in the end, everyone had their own ideas for them. I might feature Eden in them, but I'm not interested enough in them to give them the main spot. It seems like I'm not the only one with that mindset, yet fleshing them out requires more people to enjoy working with them.

That's turned into a ramble again. Force of habit. TL;DR the ideas are good, but I'm highly sceptical of whether the setting allows to execute them. Use them as guidelines, not as golden rules. (Besides, with the club being secret, and people starting to drop out, it feels weird to start fattening up a dying pig.)

Dec 20, 2018 3:40 AM

Offline

Oct 2014

478

@Tuba:
I think the writing ideas you put there make sense, villain factions aren't that interesting if they are just doing it for the Evulz or something.

@alatartheblue42:
Can't say I like surprises as much when I'm one of the admins, more so when it forces all of the admins to do something for whoever is conducting the event. But i sort of get it to some extent.

@Elvario:

For the whole Eden lore situation, it seems incredibly obvious that killing people would just be meant as some way or another to prevent them from using as much mana. It was already said that it's about the mechanism through which they harvest Mana, not that they use it at all, since for all their modern industrial activities they use the mana streams instead of just gathering it from the environment more slowly. TLDR, they don't want to wipe out mana using civilizations, they want to take over however much of the world as they can and get them to institute population control, or if that's not good enough to prevent an irreversible destruction of the planet, to wipe out enough of the countries that the rest can be sustainable after Eden takes over or they concede to Eden's goals in some way, and stop using the mana streams, and possibly have to lower the standards of their high-energy consumption life style. But at a certain point it would not be about population growth at all really, but just the current rate of mana consumption required by the currently alive population which will be alive for a good while, and if that is at a rate heading to destruction of the planet within their lifespans or close to it, then lowering the rate of growth no longer fixes the problem at all. You either kill a ton of people, or drastically lower their rate of resource use/amount of tech available, or make the technology they rely on much more energy efficient, or some combination of those 3.

One of the big issues to be worked out would be if there's anything like mutually assured destruction IC, which at that stage of the society there probably would be, which makes it pretty difficult to imagine how Eden would even pull off their world takeover in the first place. I'd imagine they're waiting for the problems with the pseudo Global Warming IC to hit the level where available mana in the streams goes down enough that it triggers resource wars or something like that that they can take advantage of, combined with the CS threatening the existence of entire countries making it way more unstable already, and taking advantage of all this to try to either wipe out or chajnge as many of the countries as possible however it suits the whole agenda.

The other problem would be that if a country gets destroyed that may lessen the strength of forces against the CS due to less numbers and nobody really knows that Eden is telling the truth about CS, as far as they know, even if this is the planet's 'immune system', it could just have decided that the humans and others are all parasites to it now and it will exterminate them all no matter how they try to reduce their numbers. Or Senza and co could have been mislead in believing what they were told by the world when summoned. As far as the countries in the world would be concerned, they have no reason to believe that unless there is compelling evidence the CS will stop attacking as enough people die off/stop draining the streams, even if Senza takes it as the word of God or some shit. Like an experiment to not drain the streams in an area and see if CS still appear there or at a lessened rate/only migrate in from other areas. Although that wouldn't be foolproof as CS could just keep appearing as long as there is a global problem for the world ecosystem, making it hard to prove if that is the case.

Either way, I think some of your problems with Eden are just due to the real life frame of reference where there is no threat of imminent death from climate problems, while in the RP, the near future within just a few years looks quite a bit more grim and apocalyptic. People IC would not be at that 'leave it to the next generation' mentality but see big problems happening pretty clearly for everyone that are threatening millions of people with death in a very obvious way easy to understand for the average person. That said, Rozen's way of doing things is pretty dumb, as he keeps 99% of the plot secret and doesn't let anybody know what is going on, which is why nobody has any idea how Eden obtained their current level of power/influence, same with Astraea. Or how exactly they are getting things done at all. Astraea is apparently some ultra powerful mega corporation that's easily far more influential than normal governments, while as for Eden, who knows.

The original idea of the club at least seems to have been to set up the plot so that there is no easy fix to the problems IC, where everyone wins and it's the golden ending. Or at least not any that the characters can pull off on their own. Trying to save everyone or most vs killing many in exchange for theoretically more guaranteed survival of the rest. While on an individual country basis, there would be a certain point of scarcity where you might have no choice but to take another country's resources to survive and not be annihilated by the CS. If you don't get killed by the CS in the process of trying to do so of course. Or choose not to assist them when they are attacked by the CS. Etc. That's the point when things get really edgy, although it would be mitigated in happening a bit due to international alliances and groups like Astraea.

Aside from the fact that IC there could be reasons why Eden is able to be more explainable, and that it's a big gap from real life where mutually assured destruction and lack of immediate scarcity threats would make much of this hard to explain, OOC it's not like I exactly prefer the edginess. But it seems to be the whole intent of the plotline in the first place. If CS weren't a thing and a very present threat to all the civilizations, SOULs would have no reason to be getting summoned. Even if Eden wasn't around as an organization, the same issues could come up like CS attacks and draining on the mana streams eventually causing scarcity that leads to wars.

So while I don't really have any ideas for Eden missions and I'm not exactly that interested in writing one, inevitably, they would be doing something or other IC. We could pretty easily write them out of the near term plot if we wanted to, and just say that this Astraea branch doesn't have its E to C ranks be needed for anything to do with eden for the next few days or a week, I suppose, but it's not like they wouldn't still exist IC.

CanaasDec 20, 2018 3:53 AM

Dec 20, 2018 7:06 PM

#10

Offline

Oct 2014

6796

Putting my two cents in here, I don't think Missions should be done how they're being done currently. Missions should have at least some effect on the plot or at least have some feeling of progression. Most of what I see in the list of past missions are just 'point farming' missions, simply existing for the sake of gaining experience for your character and levelling them up. While this may be a compelling aspect of roleplaying, it isn't normally the primary focus for most roleplayers.

Roleplaying is essentially where we put down our ideas and fantasies, it's storytelling, character development, and escapism. I don't roleplay so that I can make the strongest possible character, I'd play Runescape if I wanted to do that. I roleplay to create a character and have him/her/it go on an adventure that would be impossible in the real world.

Missions should be interesting, compelling and have a plot. Elvario's escort mission is a good start. He introduces a whole new faction with their own conflicts, agendas, and story. This way, characters can actually end up caring about the plot of the Mission rather than just sending them to a forest to fight some monsters. Above all, I think if a Mission is done right it should invoke a feeling of accomplishment within the roleplayers who took part. They should feel that their character has done something significant and has actually contributed to the plot of the club. Simply having point farming missions is only going to lead to people becoming bored with their characters since there are no foundations for them to progress story-wise.

Dec 20, 2018 7:53 PM

#11

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Dec 2011

1121

I agree with you fully @Wymsical!

I think you can start by making your own missions!

Not every mission should have a plot. Making every mission have a plot would lead to less missions and people who complained about wanting more plot complaining that now there are less missions. You can make it interesting by roleplaying your character.

That's what roleplaying is. You don't even need a plot to develop a character. Shiroku did fine when events weren't going on and it was just people talking and classes and stuff. Saying you need a plot mission to develop a character is just relying on someone else to develop your character for you.

That being said, I think the club is fine without an over-arcing plot developed by the admins. Maybe each of the admins can do their own thing, but having a huge plot like Eden develop just turns the club into a slog. Eden was introduced too late to allow people to join it, and while making it a rival faction might be fun, their premise is flawed and Rozen obviously half-assed them into the story because he didn't think people would ask questions about them.

Dec 20, 2018 8:21 PM

#12

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Oct 2014

6796

@LondotheGreat Would if I could, need a Mission License first.

When you saturate the club in point farming missions it becomes hard to have meaningful character development. You can interact with other characters in-between combat but the majority of the time, a mission will be focused around the mission objective - killing CS. Everyone's characters are pre-occupied with the end goal of completing the mission. Shiroku worked so well in regard to personal character development because characters weren't forced into combat for the majority of the time they existed.

You see, even though Shiroku had no missions or consistently active plot, people made their own plots in the absence of those things. When you put in point farming missions than you hinder a lot of someone's ability to make their own plot. Additionally, Shiroku had an active school system where characters attended classes, this was a consistent form of non-combat roleplay that we had to take part in. Clearly, there needs to be some sort of plot or setting that happens to keep things interesting.

Plot creates circumstance, without circumstance how can you roleplay? The setting of a club needs to provide a plot that your character exists within. When that plot refuses to progress than it becomes hard for your character to progress. It's a simple correlation. In Shiroku we were roleplaying in a school environment that progressed, allowing our students and teachers to progress as well.

Aeternia doesn't have that benefit, here the main form of progression is in the missions. So when you make most missions focus on just fighting shit and have no sort of story or purpose than it becomes boring very quickly.

My point can be proven just by looking at the only really active Mission, Elvario's. He's pacing it (whether by choice or because of alatar's absence is irrelevant) so that characters can actually interact with one another and the NPCs. Combat during that mission seems to be more of a side-focus; even you seem to be more interested in having Arona interact with Celestia over participating in the combat.

"That being said, I think the club is fine without an over-arching plot developed by the admins."

You've made it very clear that you think roleplay on MAL is dying. If your idea of "fine" is a club that is slowly dying than we have very different ideas of what "fine" is.

"Saying you need a plot mission to develop a character is just relying on someone else to develop your character for you."

Wrong, a plot provides situations and circumstances which creates an opportunity for my character to explore their personality traits and expand on their development. Roleplaying is reacting to the situations that your character is put in or that you create for them, when those situations are interesting and compelling it creates interesting development and potentiates your ideas.

WymsicalDec 20, 2018 8:26 PM

Dec 20, 2018 8:45 PM

#13

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Dec 2011

1121

I think that plenty of plot is to be had even without missions. If you don't like point farming mission then don't do them. Noone forces someone to play dark souls if they want civ 5.

I could have had Arona do something else meaningful with her time even if she weren't on a mission, that's what being creative with your character is about. Make more backstory, interact with NPCs, etc. This entire Aeternia world is created is considered plot. Use it. Don't come in with a character from another world and say that this setting means nothing and noone can progress in it.

And by "fine" I mean the club is fine until it dies. Saying the UK is fine even though they can't have memes doesn't mean it can't be fine. This club will die with or without a plot, get used to it.

And as I said, you don't need a plot to develop character. If you're that concerned, make your own plot. Do something with your characters rather than complain that there isn't enough plot.

And complaining that there isn't much plot based missions when yopu haven't made a mission doesn't make your complaining more meaningful, it just makes you sound like a dick complaining and not doing anything. Wait until you actually start making missions then see how hard it is to continuously pump out plot-filled missions.

Dec 20, 2018 10:36 PM

#14

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Mar 2016

682

Girls, please, you're both pretty

Neither of you are wrong; you just have differing opinions. Cupcake is correct in that people can choose their own ways of roleplaying and develop their character independently. Wym is correct in that the SOULs' primary "purpose" is to complete missions, so people are highly encouraged to do them and thus there should be better development opportunities available in them.

Wym, though you are new, you are welcome to purchase a Mission License if you so desire. Alternatively, if you have an idea for a mission but don't want to conduct it, then you could suggest the idea to an admin or other person with a license, so that they can consider taking it or adapting it. I'd volunteer, but I'm sure you've noticed by now that I have inactivity problems. Other than more plot-oriented missions, do you have any other suggestions as to how we might better accommodate your desired style?

Cupcake, please make sure you try to remain civil. I call you out preemptively because you're usual brand of impoliteness tends to involve swearing and insulting, and it'd be a right shame to have you be the first person I need to formally tell off for breaking a rule. Keep it polite when in the club, especially in a thread.

Dec 20, 2018 11:12 PM

#15

Offline

Oct 2014

6796

@alatartheblue42 I'm the prettiest though!

Yeah, I'll most likely purchase a Mission Licence after Christmas and New Years, got a few festivals and things that I'm going to so I don't want to commit to anything right now.

Anyhow, as far as other suggestions, simply having an actively involved aspect of antagonism besides the CS would be good. Not necessarily saying that there should be another "enemy type" but rather have some rival faction (I agree with Elvario on his points in regards to Eden) that is interesting and can provide a goal that characters can work towards. At least that way there's something we can work towards other than characters simply working for Aeternia.

@LondotheGreat

I'll try not to reiterate my points too much but I'll respond to what you said.

If you don't like point farming mission then don't do them. Noone forces someone to play dark souls if they want civ 5.

Problem with this argument is that in your scenario both Dark Souls and Civ 5 exist. In Aeternia, only point farming missions exist so it's either do a mission or don't do one. I don't have a choice. Obviously, choosing to not partake in a mission leads to a slow pace of roleplay with two or three other characters that takes a while to get anywhere.

"And by "fine" I mean the club is fine until it dies. Saying the UK is fine even though they can't have memes doesn't mean it can't be fine. This club will die with or without a plot, get used to it."

Not really the healthiest way of looking at things. I'm an optimist, it may just be my personality but I don't like to look at things that way and I believe you can change the outcome if you really set your mind to things. Regardless, I'll restate that our opinion on what is 'fine' is different, that's all I said, you don't have to justify anything.

"This entire Aeternia world is created is considered plot. Use it. Don't come in with a character from another world and say that this setting means nothing and noone can progress in it."

Well no, Aeternia would be the setting. A setting needs a plot. Of course, you can make your characters involved with the setting and create your own plot but regardless of what you do, you're limited by the fact that your plot can only affect your characters. A lot of the time, for a plot to be significant it requires that a lot more people be involved in it.

The reason I've made my own background lore for my characters here is so I can do just what you're telling me to do, I have their own set of goals and plot that they're progressing towards. Amphion is trying to find his daughter who is somewhere in Aeternia's world, it's a goal I can progress towards and with the creation of Lucia I can add another character to become involved with that plot. Eventually, I'll be able to create his daughter and play out my plans for him. However, even if I have that plot for him, I want the setting that he exists in to be active. Something should be happening besides just: go kill CS, sleep, repeat. The beauty of Roleplay is that the plot depends on the collective community, how your characters interact with one another, and the story that you play a part in.

"And complaining that there isn't much plot based missions when yopu haven't made a mission doesn't make your complaining more meaningful, it just makes you sound like a dick complaining and not doing anything. Wait until you actually start making missions then see how hard it is to continuously pump out plot-filled missions."

This is an open discussion where people are allowed to express their opinions. My comments were a simple explanation of my thoughts and ideas on how Missions should function. Calling that complaining is harmful to the flow of an open channel of conversation. I treat you with respect so have the maturity to do the same.

Dec 24, 2018 12:23 PM

#16

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May 2015

241

Since the original poll I set up was so graciously deleted by Canaas, I'm going to ask here in a non-formal setting. I understand that this has been voted on in Discord, but because the administration is currently at a standstill on the issue I'd like to gather public opinion.

In your opinion, should Aeternia go public? And why?

Canaas, I understand that you believe certain things about how Aeternia going public may doom the club, so feel free to state your side of the argument here rather than deleting my attempt to open up the issue to the group as a whole.

Dec 24, 2018 2:54 PM

#17

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Oct 2014

478

@Tuba:

We've been over this quite a bit in the admin chat already. The MAL terms of use about copyright are going to have the club be deleted or rendered non-functional if we make it public and as a result make it obvious that a copyclub exists. It would be easier if you wrote down some arguments in favor here but it seems like you didn't do that.

Right now it seems like it's the same as what would happen if I joined some MAL club somewhere and made a chara named Horace Ridgeway who uses time powers and just so happens to have the same powers and bio and personality as your character. Even if i changed a few minor details i'd probably be seen as copying your character and using them in a way you wouldn't approve of and once that got figured out I would either be banned from that club or forced to remove the character. That exact thing technically happens every time we use one of Rozen's NPCs here too if he doesn't like it. So it's hard to see how exactly this wouldn't break copyright rules.

Dec 24, 2018 4:51 PM

#18

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Mar 2016

682

Well, no majority opinion is complete without the minority opinion, so I guess I'm up.

Canaas and the others in the majority look to tomorrow. They fear the potential of a copyright strike, and use their fear to argue that it is a certainty that if it goes public the club will be taken down and we would not be able to do anything about it. They think that they can turn a blind eye to the blood slowly streaming from the club's body, believing that the wound will miraculously heal so long as they don't acknowledge or treat it.

They fail to understand that there is a significant possibility that we will not even be challenged; a copyright infringement complaint needs someone to complain first. And even then, should we end up in hot water there are always work-arounds to be taken. Citing others, adapting lore, etc. There are plenty of ways in which we can avert the trouble that might come.

While it is true that a possibility of no copyright complaint means that there also is the potential for one, I at least accept this. It puts our tomorrow in jeopardy, true. But at the same time, it is for the best. How many tomorrows will come until the club withers away?

Being a secret club is like putting a plant in a pot inside your house and then not giving it sun or water. It will die without regular nutrients. And MAL RP clubs don't seem to have that many nutrients available as is. If we cannot get new players, then the club is unquestionably doomed. Being public makes the club infinitely more approachable. Strangers can look in and consider joining. Potential recruits will feel less pressure in joining an open club than a secret cult where they are the only initiate. And so on so forth.

Certainly, this club will die one day. Existing means by definition that there will be an end. I, however, would prefer it to not happen while I am still around. I'd like this club to last for as long as I have fun in it, and then I'd like for it to continue even after I bow out and move on with my life.

The options I see are three. 1) We stay secret, and tie the noose around our own neck. 2) We go public, and are utterly decimated by a copyright strike that we have no way to circumvent. We die, but at least it was a quick death. 3) We go public, and live a longer life. The reaper comes one day, but at least we will have made some attempt to escape death for a little longer.

Thanks for reading, have a good day, happy Christmas, etc. If you'd like to actually have a running debate or discussion with me, please use PMs or Discord or something. That way, this thread can be used for the people expressing their opinions for the first time rather than just being monopolized by you and I.

Dec 24, 2018 5:15 PM

#19

Zeno

Offline

Jul 2011

7302

How about asking Minarei if she's okay with it? She made the club and is in this one right? I haven't been reading everything up until now but Minarei's name is down as the Creator for the last club so....on paper, just asking her should be fine right? If that argument has already been made then disregard. I only read the first two-3-4 paragraphs of Alatar's recent post.

Zen💀

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Dec 24, 2018 5:18 PM

#20

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Oct 2014

478

@Zeno:

I talked about it with Minarei earlier, and she thought that Rozen would be a lot more likely not to complain to MAL admins if we had her among the Admins, so that he could see that she was involved with the lore and plot. She personally didn't think it going public would be bad when Tuba asked her, but changed her mind after reading the MAL terms of use.

Dec 25, 2018 3:18 AM

#21

Elvario

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Aug 2014

939

Canaas said:
@Zeno:

I talked about it with Minarei earlier, and she thought that Rozen would be a lot more likely not to complain to MAL admins if we had her among the Admins, so that he could see that she was involved with the lore and plot. She personally didn't think it going public would be bad when Tuba asked her, but changed her mind after reading the MAL terms of use.

https://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?cid=62901&q=shiroku

This was never an issue either, nor are many other examples like this. MAL isn't going to be an ass about a copy of a club that exists out of copyrighted materials. If they would be, stuff like this wouldn't have been possible either.

Besides, Rozenluxis himself didn't even own half of the stuff in there, images, ideas for plot and whatnot included. Until article 13 in the EU kills the internet, there shouldn't be any problem, especially not if we've got Minarei on our side in case Rozenluxis somehow cares to make it one. I severely doubt that though, knowing him he just considered it all 'going out with a bang' and now being done with it entirely.

Dec 25, 2018 3:53 AM

#22

Offline

Oct 2014

6796

We're severely overestimating how much MAL admins care about a small RP club. If Rozen messaged them I doubt they would even respond, to be honest. Even if they did, do you think they would take the time to read through and validate his claims?

Honestly, thinking that the club is going to be taken down by a copyright strike is pretty silly.

Dec 25, 2018 11:44 AM

#23

Offline

Oct 2014

478

@Elvario:

Thiing is, that club was made in pretty different circumstances. The original Shiroku died simply because people were inactive, not because of something going wrong that made people quit. Valdez's Shiroku was basically just an attempt to get it going again. Also Valdez did ask Rozen for permission, he just created the club before asking, you can see part of their conversation on Rozen's profile although oddly his responses are not present, I think they used to be there. Rozen still got annoyed by that as far as i remember but didn't care anymore and decided to let him do it. Compare someone trying to revive dead club after it dies and you lose interest to someone directly copying your club after you try to remove all traces of it. Clearly Rozen will complain to them, so the only real question is what MAL would do. It would be pretty easy for him to prove he originally made the club, like if he just had a backup, and that the whole plotlilne is being copied along with mostly everything about it, so unless you think no copyclubs could ever be gotten rid of when pointed out to MAL by someone complaining, all the conditions are there for them to do it.

You could say that Minarei's technically the original creator, but unless she lied, she'd have to admit that he made enough of the lore and everything else that removing that would make the club no longer usable. She also isn't even part of the administration right now.

Dec 25, 2018 2:35 PM

#24

Zeno

Offline

Jul 2011

7302

Has anyone asked Rozen? He's only human... Honestly he might be interested to see where the club goes by itself.

Zen💀

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Dec 25, 2018 2:57 PM

#25

Offline

Oct 2014

478

@Zeno:

At that rate, he could just talk to the MAL admins on his own though. Since he would be able to show them a secret club exists by showing them the PM sent to him. When he shut down the club earlier he shut down the admin chat too and blocked me, along with presumably everyone else. So it seems like he wouldn't really want to negotiate in any way.

Dec 26, 2018 9:03 PM

#26

Offline

Dec 2011

1121

I think Lucia's HP vision should be the Cleric's class passive. Not being able to see the life force of someone you heal is a REAL detriment to healing. Having to pay for it is even worse.

Of course, it should be nerfed, like what Sho is putting in the request thread. Every rank above yours should make it take an extra turn to see their health, etc.

Jan 19, 2019 12:19 PM

#27

Offline

Dec 2011

1121

CS Weaknesses and Resistances

Currently, there are multiple CS that have more resistances than weakness. Only 1 has more weakness than it does resistance. This should change so that they are equal and not just unbalanced in that department.

Fenrir

I think Fenrir should either gain water resistance (to account for the fact that it will be fire resistant in its third form), or lose the resistances all-together. Enough things resist Ice as is, why was Fenrir given it for no reason?

Sharite, Piran, and Lepiran

Either they should become frail to lightning, to account for having two resistances, or lose Ice resistance. Personally, I think losing Ice would be better, as they also resist it for no reason other than to fuck Ice user(s) over.

Dinedge and Bladino

These two should, in my opinion, become Immune to fire altogether, solidifying their spot as the fire CS. Ice currently isn't strong against anything, and it also makes sense for water to be strong against them, so them having fire immunity seems the best for these two.

Future CS

In the future, more CS need to be weak to Ice, as it is an already very weak element, and more CS need to be resistant to Lightning. Currently as it stands, 0 CS and races are resistance to Lightning, making it a more all-around choice better than fire is even, which has a ton of weaknesses, but also plenty resistances

Jan 20, 2019 2:00 AM

#28

Offline

Oct 2014

478

@LondoTheGreat:
I was in favor of clerics just getting the HP vision for free, but too many admins were against it. Although I already told you on discord a while ago, it just seems more transparent to say that here.

As for changing CS elemental resistances, changing the fenrir like that might work. It does seem that
Ice resistance is rather omnipresent, around half of them resist it. Making the Dinedge fully immune to fire might be extreme, though. At that rate, a fire mage would be 100% useless without a res debuff. Valencia easily gets around that, but she's not a mage anyways.

For the Sharites and Pirans, it should normally be easier to just avoid a mission that you know is going to be near a river or the sea than against more common area types like let's say the plains. As for if they should really lose the ice resistance(as making them frail, for the Sharite in particular, is just letting lightning users easily one-shot), idk yet.

Jan 20, 2019 8:18 AM

#29

Offline

Dec 2011

1121

@Canaas

That's kind of a sacrifice you have to make. We have an elemental system for a reason. Having someone be useless against ONE enemy isn't that big a deal considering they are strong against other enemies. If you know you're going against that enemy, and you choose to go, then you're being an idiot.

And of course you can avoid rivers, but that doesn't excuse them having two elemental resistances and 1 weakness, that's not the point I was making. You're just trying to make an excuse not to change them, "just don't go near the river, so we don't have to change anything"

Letting Lightning users one shot isn't that big a deal. With enough damage they can do that anyways. It's strategy to decide whether to bring a Lightning user to a river or not.

Get me another admin to speak to about this, I don't want to hear "idk what to do about this." Just because you don't want to change it. Your counter-argument for a CS immune to fire being "It makes people that don't exist yet useless" is stupid.

Jan 20, 2019 2:20 PM

#30